JJ-Trek/ IDW Continuity and Discontinuities

[JonnyQuest037]

But you specifically said "character who weren't in the new movies yet." If you were indeed referring to the TOS characters, than it should be pretty damn obvious they were in the movies. That's kind of who the movies are about.

I was talking about TOS characters outside of the main cast of seven, like Gary Mitchell (drawn to look like Gary Lockwood), or Cyrano Jones, or Harry Mudd, or whomever. I'm not sure who else they used, as I jumped off of the ongoing book pretty early.

 

[Therin of Andor]

one could then legitimately interpret the dialogue in "Metamorphosis" to allow that Cochrane was a member of an indigenous Alpha Centaurian species, if one was so inclined?

Yes, and this is the take used by the Goldsteins in the 1980 book, "Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology". Their Cochrane was a humanoid alien with a few distinctive physical features. (IIRC, slight webbing between the fingers and a higher forehead?)

 

[Christopher]

Sorry to veer off topic here, but... I never really realized this was done so much in TOS. So based on this, one could then legitimately interpret the dialogue in "Metamorphosis" to allow that Cochrane was a member of an indigenous Alpha Centaurian species, if one was so inclined?

I wouldn't say "legitimate," because Gene Coon's story outline makes it clear that he intended Cochrane to be famous as the head of the first Earth expedition to colonize Alpha Centauri. So he was "of Alpha Centauri" in the sense that Englishman T.E. Lawrence was "of Arabia." This is borne out by the final episode establishing that the planetoid terraformed for Cochrane's comfort has conditions nearly identical to Earth, and by Cochrane's line that it's "Not Earth, but it's livable."

Then, of course, there's the fact that "Zefram" is a variant of the Greek name "Zephram" (derived from Zephyr, the west wind) and "Cochrane" is a Scottish surname and place name. Okay, granted, there are alien characters in Trek with names found on Earth (Spock, Kang, Chang, Odo, Dax, both Kira and Nerys, etc.), but still.

And TOS was inconsistent about the usage anyway, sometimes using "human" for humanoid aliens while at other times it was clearly meant to refer to Earth humans exclusively of other humanoids. So there was no uniform "style guide" we can apply.

I find it especially annoying that in the "Live Evil" arc, mirror Khan Noonien Singh introduces himself by that name, but he is drawn in Benedict Cumberbatch's likeness. This universe even has a Botany Bay too.

Whereas the IDW Khan miniseries postulates that a Montalban-like Khan was given cosmetic surgery by Admiral Marcus to look like Cumberbatch. Oh, well -- I guess it's more of the "every conceivable possibility exists in the multiverse" stuff, which can be used to justify any bit of randomness.

 

[The Wormhole]

I was talking about TOS characters outside of the main cast of seven, like Gary Mitchell (drawn to look like Gary Lockwood), or Cyrano Jones, or Harry Mudd, or whomever. I'm not sure who else they used, as I jumped off of the ongoing book pretty early.

Well, I was just talking about the cast of seven. But when it comes to those characters you mention, they don't typically resemble the original actors. Although the covers use images of Gary Lockwood, I didn't think Mitchell was drawn to resemble him in the comic itself, likewise Kelso didn't really resemble the actor from the episode. When Sam Kirk (who was originally just Shatner with a stache) was in the comic his appearance was based on Chris Hemsworth, in fact many compared him to a "raggedy Thor." Kor looks nothing like John Colicos, Samuel T Cogley nothing like Elisha Cook. Harry Mudd hasn't actually been seen in the comic, though given he has an adult daughter in the 2250s, he's likely older than he was in the Prime Universe.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Well, that sounds needlessly confusing, especially if they have the rights to use the likenesses of the actors. How would we know that that's supposed to be another version of the same Kor we saw on TOS, rather than just another Klingon with the same name?

 

[Christopher]

Harry Mudd hasn't actually been seen in the comic, though given he has an adult daughter in the 2250s, he's likely older than he was in the Prime Universe.

Yeah. The surprising thing is that Roger C. Carmel was actually a year and a half younger than William Shatner. Some people age fast.

Come to think of it, I bet the reason the Countdown to Darkness interpreted "Mudd" as someone other than Harry was because IDW doesn't have the rights to use Carmel's likeness (which is also why the John Byrne photomontage comics contrived to turn Harry into a Kirk lookalike).

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Come to think of it, I bet the reason the Countdown to Darkness interpreted "Mudd" as someone other than Harry was because IDW doesn't have the rights to use Carmel's likeness (which is also why the John Byrne photomontage comics contrived to turn Harry into a Kirk lookalike).

I'm sure that's the reason, too.

 

[JD]

Come to think of it, I bet the reason the Countdown to Darkness interpreted "Mudd" as someone other than Harry was because IDW doesn't have the rights to use Carmel's likeness (which is also why the John Byrne photomontage comics contrived to turn Harry into a Kirk lookalike).

Is nobody allowed to use Carmel's likeness? When DC did their new Batman '66/Green Hornet TV series crossover comics they brought back the villain from the TV crossover, Carmel's Colonel Gumm, but had him wearing a mask.

 

[Sto-Vo-Kory]

Is nobody allowed to use Carmel's likeness? When DC did their new Batman '66/Green Hornet TV series crossover comics they brought back the villain from the TV crossover, Carmel's Colonel Gumm, but had him wearing a mask.

Over at the Batman '66 forum, a poster said the licensing agreement for likeness use only includes:

Spoiler

Adam West-Batman/Bruce Wayne
Burt Ward-Robin/Dick Grayson
Cesar Romero-The Joker
Julie Newmar-The Catwoman
Burgess Meredith-The Penguin
Frank Gorshin-The Riddler
Vincent Price-Egghead
David Wayne-Mad Hatter
Cliff Robertson-Shame
Victor Buono-King Tut
Otto Preminger-Mr. Freeze
Eartha Kitt-Catwoman
Roddy McDowall-The Bookworm
Yvonne Craig-Batgirl

John Byrne, on his own forum, has said that the embargo on Carmel's likeness is a relatively recent development, since he illustrated the Mudd profile (with Carmel's likeness) in the old Who's Who in Star Trek decades ago with no legal hassle.

 

[Christopher]

John Byrne, on his own forum, has said that the embargo on Carmel's likeness is a relatively recent development, since he illustrated the Mudd profile (with Carmel's likeness) in the old Who's Who in Star Trek decades ago with no legal hassle.

That doesn't seem right, because neither of DC's Harry Mudd storylines used Carmel's likeness, instead going for similar-looking chubby, balding men with mustaches (or a full beard in the case of his Volume 2 appearance).

Honestly, I'm looking at Byrne's (and Terry Austin's) illustration of Mudd right now, and it doesn't really look like Carmel to me. It does seem to be based on Mudd's mugshot from his computer file in "Mudd's Women," but with a larger handlebar mustache and the expression changed to a grin, and the features that are changed don't quite seem to match Carmel. But then, we are talking about Byrne, and he's the first to admit that he doesn't do likenesses well. So it's hard to tell whether it was meant to be a likeness or not. Howard Chaykin's rendering of Mudd on the cover of the same Who's Who issue is also just different enough not to look like Carmel.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Whereas the IDW Khan miniseries postulates that a Montalban-like Khan was given cosmetic surgery by Admiral Marcus to look like Cumberbatch. Oh, well -- I guess it's more of the "every conceivable possibility exists in the multiverse" stuff, which can be used to justify any bit of randomness.

It seems we're supposed to assume that in the "Live Evil" universe, the Terran Empire unearthed good Khan, did surgery on him as part of an attempt to press him into Terran service, and then after it failed decided not to kill him right away. And it's only in "Live Evil, Part 1" that the Imperial Starfleet finally decides to kill Khan and his people. *shake my head*

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Honestly, I'm looking at Byrne's (and Terry Austin's) illustration of Mudd right now, and it doesn't really look like Carmel to me. It does seem to be based on Mudd's mugshot from his computer file in "Mudd's Women," but with a larger handlebar mustache and the expression changed to a grin, and the features that are changed don't quite seem to match Carmel. But then, we are talking about Byrne, and he's the first to admit that he doesn't do likenesses well. So it's hard to tell whether it was meant to be a likeness or not. Howard Chaykin's rendering of Mudd on the cover of the same Who's Who issue is also just different enough not to look like Carmel.

Byrne has said that for his other Who's Who in Star Trek entries (Sarek, Khan), he traced from photos to achieve the likenesses (on an Art-O-Graph, IIRC), so it wouldn't surprise me if he did the same for Mudd. But Mudd as a character certainly lends himself to being "pushed" into the cartoon realm.

 

[David cgc]

Way back, the 25th Anniversary computer game also avoided using Carmel's likeness, showing Mudd in silhouette when he appeared on the viewscreen (the character model was seen clearly, though the characters in that game were small enough calling any of them a "likeness" is a stretch. Caricature, at best).

...Samuel T Cogley [looks] nothing like Elisha Cook.

That sounds like more of a slight against the artist than an example of their intent. As luck would have it, it looks like the panel Memory Beta chose to illustrate J.J.-verse Cogley was drawn using reference of the shot StarTrek.com uses for their article on Cogley. Whatever the result, the clear intent was that they look the same.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That sounds like more of a slight against the artist than an example of their intent. As luck would have it, it looks like the panel Memory Beta chose to illustrate J.J.-verse Cogley was drawn using reference of the shot StarTrek.com uses for their article on Cogley. Whatever the result, the clear intent was that they look the same.

Yeah, critiquing it as an artist myself, that's not bad. It's certainly recognizable who it's supposed to be.

 

[Pauln6]

I was talking about TOS characters outside of the main cast of seven, like Gary Mitchell (drawn to look like Gary Lockwood), or Cyrano Jones, or Harry Mudd, or whomever. I'm not sure who else they used, as I jumped off of the ongoing book pretty early.

I find it especially annoying that in the "Live Evil" arc, mirror Khan Noonien Singh introduces himself by that name, but he is drawn in Benedict Cumberbatch's likeness. This universe even has a Botany Bay too.

On the other hand, I suppose I do enjoy the use of TOS likenesses for characters such as Samuel Cogley and Cyrano Jones. "Legacy of Spock, Part 2" even includes a bartender aboard Deep Space Station K-7 who may or may not be Nilz Baris.

I also enjoy that the large Romulan ships in the ongoing series look like direct precursors of the 24th century D'Deridex class while the small ones look like direct successors of the 22nd century bird of prey. Though amusingly, the civilian ships in orbit of Romulus in "Legacy of Spock, Part 2" include reuses of both 24th century Klingon and Romulan designs.

The strangest one for me was lieutenant Zahra who started out as a North African like the TOS actress, was then accidentally drawn as yeoman Rand once, and has most recently been drawn in the likeness of a platinum blonde, very pale, background actress from Stid. More whitewashing!

 

[Enterprise1701]

Yeah, the whole Zahra thing has been very odd.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Pleasingly, "The Q Gambit" arc had a cameo of what looked to me like Gowron and Donatra.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Something just occurred to me: Sho'tokh, the Klingon captain from the Manifest Destiny miniseries. Could he be at least in part inspired by the Albino?

 

[TalonCard]

I'd been prepared for the complete alt-universe take on the Kelvin timeline in these, and I knew that a fair number of them had been written before Into Darkness was even scripted, so I wasn't expecting them to mesh perfectly with either the pre-Kelvin split or the subsequent film, but I was a little surprised to find they weren't even internally consistent--the I, Enterprise flashback storyline is dropped in between the events of After Darkness and Into Darkness, with no mention of the Nibiru mission assigned in both AD and the Star Trek 2013 video game, and includes Carol Marcus, who won't join the Enterprise crew until after STID.

The other weird thing is that Pike seems to be absolutely in on Admiral Marcus's plots, including violating the Prime Directive, maintaining the Landru mind-control system, participating in the April cover-up and shuffling the tribbles off to Starfleet Intelligence for goodness knows what purpose... In the films you'd never suspect him of being anything but a good guy. Dunno if this is ever addressed in future comics (not quite past Into Darkness yet), but it'd be nice to see it explored.

What I'm really liking about the comics, though, is how well they capture the characters of many of the Kelvin Timeline incarnations of the characters. Pine and Quinto are spot-on, and Pegg must be fun to write for as he gets a lot of the best lines. And I love that Keenser was the tallest person in his village and Scotty's superior on Delta Vega--given that he seems to be the most experienced officer on the ship, I'd love for it to be revealed somewhere down the line that he's there to keep tabs on all of these newly-graduated cadets.

TC

 

[Christopher]

I'd been prepared for the complete alt-universe take on the Kelvin timeline in these, and I knew that a fair number of them had been written before Into Darkness was even scripted, so I wasn't expecting them to mesh perfectly with either the pre-Kelvin split or the subsequent film, but I was a little surprised to find they weren't even internally consistent--the I, Enterprise flashback storyline is dropped in between the events of After Darkness and Into Darkness, with no mention of the Nibiru mission assigned in both AD and the Star Trek 2013 video game, and includes Carol Marcus, who won't join the Enterprise crew until after STID.

Isn't Carol just in the "present-day" frame story around the pre-STID flashbacks?

Anyway, Simon Pegg has just dropped a continuity bombshell of sorts:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/simon-pegg-has-a-canonical-explanation-for-why-sulu-is-1783511576

Sure, we experience time as a contiguous series of cascading events but perception and reality aren’t always the same thing. Spock’s incursion from the Prime Universe created a multidimensional reality shift. The rift in space/time created an entirely new reality in all directions, top to bottom, from the Big Bang to the end of everything. As such this reality was, is and always will be subtly different from the Prime Universe. I don’t believe for one second that Gene Roddenberry wouldn’t have loved the idea of an alternate reality (Mirror, Mirror anyone?).

This means, and this is absolutely key, the Kelvin universe can evolve and change in ways that don’t necessarily have to follow the Prime Universe at any point in history, before or after the events of Star Trek ‘09, it can mutate and subvert, it is a playground for the new and the progressive...

This may not make a lot of physical sense, but from a creative standpoint, I understand it -- he's saying they decided it was too creatively limiting if they couldn't change things before 2233. (Although he seems to be under the odd impression that Sulu was born before the Kelvin incident, which would make him older than Kirk.) So assuming this is the official policy in the movies now, that pretty much brings them into line with the comics' approach -- well, almost. Johnson's assumption is that the Kelvinverse just happened to be an alternate all along, while Pegg's saying it was created by Nero's incursion but that the changes propagated backward as well as forward. So the cause is different, but the effect is the same: There's no longer any limit on how much the Kelvin Timeline can diverge from the Prime Timeline.

And, you know, after thinking about that for a bit, I can actually buy it. After all, it's always bugged me that the same red-matter wormhole somehow dumped Nero in 2233 also dumped Spock Prime in 2258. But if the wormhole exit was "unstuck in time," it could've popped up at any number of places and times in the past, and its gravity or energy could've affected cosmic events in subtle ways throughout history. Also, there is such a thing in quantum theory as retrocausality, the possibility that some quantum effects could propagate backward in time, so that things in the past could be caused by events in the future.