CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

[CaptGrumpy]

Here's my worries about guidelines. The bell has been rung, Alec has shown people will take things right to the edge.

Make a guideline that they can't be more than 45 minutes? some one will make a 10 minute separate teaser, and then the 45 minute episode.

Make a guideline that you can't make a profit and only pay people with real expenses, Well then maybe the producer who draws no salary also doubles as the make up supervisor and draws a salary for that role.

Make a guideline that you can't crowd fund? The all of a sudden a costume maker holds a crowd fund and they donate the costumes to the production.

Can't have a donor store? Well what are you going to do if some of your donors got their donation money by selling some of their trek products?

Right now without guidelines, CBS can enforce the spirit of the law, and I worry with guidelines they'll be bound to the letter of the law and people will abuse them.

I've said it before. They've been generous letting people pretty much go on as they wanted till Alec came to town. He went too far and a call went out for guidelines. The guidelines are these: fan films are kaput. ALL violators will be sued. Why should CBS/P want to be cops. They've got a business to run.

 

[muCephi]

Here's my worries about guidelines. The bell has been rung, Alec has shown people will take things right to the edge.

Make a guideline that they can't be more than 45 minutes? some one will make a 10 minute separate teaser, and then the 45 minute episode.

Make a guideline that you can't make a profit and only pay people with real expenses, Well then maybe the producer who draws no salary also doubles as the make up supervisor and draws a salary for that role.

Make a guideline that you can't crowd fund? The all of a sudden a costume maker holds a crowd fund and they donate the costumes to the production.

Can't have a donor store? Well what are you going to do if some of your donors got their donation money by selling some of their trek products?

Right now without guidelines, CBS can enforce the spirit of the law, and I worry with guidelines they'll be bound to the letter of the law and people will abuse them.

IMO, this has always been the scammy appearance about Axanar demanding guidelines. Wherever there is a rule, there is space created that can be gamed as you describe. This is why the studios haven't wanted to go there either, I understand.

I have never regarded the Axanar demands for guidelines to be about fairness or virtue, but rather about trying to get the studios to cede some place where conduct like Axanar's can have one foot in justification.

Yes, many fan films would follow the letter and spirit of guidelines. But case in point, there will always be those willing to grab all they can and justify it with whatever they can. Tragedy of the commons, eco 101.

 

[Noname Given]

Here's my worries about guidelines. The bell has been rung, Alec has shown people will take things right to the edge.

Make a guideline that they can't be more than 45 minutes? some one will make a 10 minute separate teaser, and then the 45 minute episode.

Make a guideline that you can't make a profit and only pay people with real expenses, Well then maybe the producer who draws no salary also doubles as the make up supervisor and draws a salary for that role.

Make a guideline that you can't crowd fund? The all of a sudden a costume maker holds a crowd fund and they donate the costumes to the production.

Can't have a donor store? Well what are you going to do if some of your donors got their donation money by selling some of their trek products?

Right now without guidelines, CBS can enforce the spirit of the law, and I worry with guidelines they'll be bound to the letter of the law and people will abuse them.

Well, remember one thing - Alec Peters, David Gerrold and Robert Burnett Myers KEPT bringing up Disney, Lucasfilm and their rules for Star Wars fan films. What makes anyone think that after all that - the C/P guidelines wouldn't be a near copy of those guidelines?

Again, the above is the example that got thrown in C/P's 'face' - so in the end, IF there's a settlement of not the resulting guidelines will be a case of "Hey, we gave you what you asked for.."

 

[Sgt_G]

It might not have started out this way, but to say that Axanar didn't mean to go too far is like saying Marco Polo just meant to step out for bread and milk. Axanar went so far over the line they'd need to look behind themselves with the Hubble telescope to see that line.

 

[mos6507]

There have ALWAYS been rules. The rules are, all fan-films are technically illegal.

To say that AP is a spoiler is like being upset that a drug dealer got sloppy and got caught. I know that seems like an absurd analogy, but with some people coming down so hard on the need to follow the letter of the law, it's worth making that comparison. Either you are advocates of strict copyright enforcement or you aren't. You can't play favorites and say AP deserved a smackdown and the others should have just kept slipping under the radar. Whether AP deserves it or not, that's really just a blind hater's position. The law doesn't care whether someobody has a noxious personality. All they care is whether they broke the law or not. Axanar may be the worst offender, but the other fan-films are also technically lawbreakers, just in a more modest, less brazen way.

That's why this thread is so maddening because the talking points shift around in order to maintain maximum righteous indignation against AP while presuming to not be haters but to merely be standing firm for the integrity of copyright protection.

So I don't get this aversion to guidelines. If setting guidelines means CBS/P prohibits crowdfunding, then so be it. The party's over. Just deal with it. Nobody was ever entitled to run multiple six-figure crowdfunding campaigns even if the money's going into building studio-accurate recreations of the TOS sets rather than lining pocketbooks. The calculus of these productions has always been a matter of guessing how much CBS/P would tolerate, not staying within the letter of the law. (I don't even think KS and IGG should have allowed the campaigns in the fist place if it's towards illegal activities.)

I mean, can anyone think back to the first time one of these campaigns broke six figures? I think it was Renegades that did it. My jaw dropped over that one. Ever since then I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. People just became way too complacent that silence equaled consent, but once things broke six figures it was totally uncharted territory. Unsustainable.

 

[MikeH92467]

If you haven't figured out what the aversion to rules is you just don't want to. I think the earlier poster nailed it: whatever rules get established someone will push them until they break. That puts the corporation into the position of having to play cop or have some IP troll claim they've abandoned the property because they didn't enforce the rules in those cases, so why should they be held accountable. (Sound familiar?) Right now the rules are "follow established copyright and trademark rules". This allows C/P to pretend they don't see anything unless and until somebody like AP comes along and then they can be shocked, SHOCKED that someone is violating their IP rights. "What about those other productions?" "What other productions?" To say there are no rules is just wrong. The rules are copyright and trademark law and violations by productions that are clearly no threat to anyone's franchises and are absolutely meant for fun and enjoyment by a relatively small group of fans can be conveniently overlooked. Set up rules and you're buying trouble if it's anything other than "violate our IP, no matter how innocently and your ass is ours".

 

[JWPlatt]

To say that AP is a spoiler is like being upset that a drug dealer got sloppy and got caught.

The other dealers only use the drugs for medicinal purposes.

 

[mos6507]

whatever rules get established someone will push them until they break.

I think that starship has already sailed, hence the lawsuit. Are you really meaning that if we have no guidelines that it would be a free-for-all? It was never a free-for-all in the first place. The default rules are that all fan-films violate copyright and CBS/P let it slide at their own discretion. People were just linking to a post in the forum that presumed to have rules but it was all based on hearsay (he said she said). Nothing official.

 

[Noname Given]

There have ALWAYS been rules. The rules are, all fan-films are technically illegal.

To say that AP is a spoiler is like being upset that a drug dealer got sloppy and got caught. I know that seems like an absurd analogy, but with some people coming down so hard on the need to follow the letter of the law, it's worth making that comparison. Either you are advocates of strict copyright enforcement or you aren't. You can't play favorites and say AP deserved a smackdown and the others should have just kept slipping under the radar. Whether AP deserves it or not, that's really just a blind hater's position. The law doesn't care whether someobody has a noxious personality. All they care is whether they broke the law or not. Axanar may be the worst offender, but the other fan-films are also technically lawbreakers, just in a more modest, less brazen way.

That's why this thread is so maddening because the talking points shift around in order to maintain maximum righteous indignation against AP while presuming to not be haters but to merely be standing firm for the integrity of copyright protection.

So I don't get this aversion to guidelines. If setting guidelines means CBS/P prohibits crowdfunding, then so be it. The party's over. Just deal with it. Nobody was ever entitled to run multiple six-figure crowdfunding campaigns even if the money's going into building studio-accurate recreations of the TOS sets rather than lining pocketbooks. The calculus of these productions has always been a matter of guessing how much CBS/P would tolerate, not staying within the letter of the law. (I don't even think KS and IGG should have allowed the campaigns in the fist place if it's towards illegal activities.)

I mean, can anyone think back to the first time one of these campaigns broke six figures? I think it was Renegades that did it. My jaw dropped over that one. Ever since then I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. People just became way too complacent that silence equaled consent, but once things broke six figures it was totally uncharted territory. Unsustainable.

Except Axanar (and Alec Peters) DIDN'T "get sloppy" - he KNOWINGLY crossed WAY over the line in:
- Setting up a 'donor store' that when BEYOND the 'Perk' system of most Crowdfund sites and producing said perks per order.
- Paying himself a salary for working on his own project .
- Setting up a for profit studio using funds garnered by use of the Star Trek IP.

Further when advised at a Star Trek Vegas Convention that CBS objected to groups 'trading off their IP'; he didn't dial anything back - he went full bore even claiming that his production was 'authorized' by CBS at one point.

Again that's not 'being sloppy' (and using your analogy) - that's selling and sniffing cocaine in front of a Police station as the cops are walking out and basically taunting them to arrest you.

To try and play the "Alec Peters really had no clue he was stepping over the line" card at this point is disingenuous at best.

 

[MikeH92467]

I think that starship has already sailed, hence the lawsuit. Are you really meaning that if we have no guidelines that it would be a free-for-all? It was never a free-for-all in the first place. The default rules are that all fan-films violate copyright and CBS/P let it slide at their own discretion. People were just linking to a post in the forum that presumed to have rules but it was all based on hearsay (he said she said). Nothing official.

Go back. Read my whole post...then try again.

 

[mos6507]

Go back. Read my whole post...then try again.

Sorry, the way things were done in the old days with self-funding, things like Exeter and PII/NV, that was sustainable. But the moment crowdfunding broke six figures, fan-films were starting to walk on thin-ice. Remove AP from the picture and it's still a ticking time-bomb. I just don't buy the idea that how things were working before would have been sustainable. CBS/P chose to go after AP in order to try to reign everything in. And sure enough, Renegades scaled back, and STC's campaign was curtailed as people started to worry they'd be throwing their donations away. (Plus STC recently establishing non-profit status).

This is one of those debates that starts to teeter into clairvoyance as each side guesses what's in the minds of executives. It shouldn't have to be that way. It's inherently dysfunctional. I am totally pro guidelines even though I know it's technically more of a hassle for CBS/P to deal with. It's not like this lawsuit hasn't also been a hassle.

 

[muCephi]

There have ALWAYS been rules. The rules are, all fan-films are technically illegal.
...
Either you are advocates of strict copyright enforcement or you aren't. You can't play favorites and say AP deserved a smackdown and the others should have just kept slipping under the radar. Whether AP deserves it or not, that's really just a blind hater's position. The law doesn't care whether someobody has a noxious personality. All they care is whether they broke the law or not. Axanar may be the worst offender, but the other fan-films are also technically lawbreakers, just in a more modest, less brazen way.
...
[highlights added for comment reference below]

So you agree that there is a difference of degree in the extent to which Axanar violated copyright. Work with this point. For copyright, the consequences of the degree of violation do not arise from the law itself, they arise from the reaction of the IP holder.

It simply isn't the law that anyone has to be advocates of strict copyright enforcement, or nothing. One might wish to say that is a moral boundary they want to declare, but it isn't in the law. So there are two tracks of discussion going on here.

I think what you see here is reaction to the insanely large degree to which Axanar violated copyright as compared to other fan films, and a recognition that this was a very stupid and profit-motivated act, which, to the point, likely has a variety of unacceptable consequences. Sure, there is absolutism too, I personally don't think Axanar should under any circumstances license Trek IP to others without an arrangement with the studio, for example. But that's because that is an extreme. Its known the studios were ok with a modest amount of IP use under generally recognized don't take a profit guidelines. The situation overall isn't absolute.

The law allows the IP holder to create consequences based on how they view the violation. They reacted strongly, and there may be severe consequences for other fan films. Further, this project diverted over a half million dollars of fan money into a studio business while forever tinkering with their ever more costly project, instead of finishing it, and now there is a very real chance the donors will not get what they supported.

Sure, all of this could go away. But it probably won't. And for that, fans have a right to criticise, IMO. Absolute for/against enforcing copyright is not a real litmus test of the validity of the analysis being applied; it isn't even the nature of that law.

 

[Sgt_G]

I still don't understand how any "fan-film" can have a budget in the six figures. If it's truly a FAN film, the actors should NOT be paid for their time in front of the camera. Actors can be fans, too, right?

 

[dmac]

I still don't understand how any "fan-film" can have a budget in the six figures. If it's truly a FAN film, the actors should NOT be paid for their time in front of the camera. Actors can be fan, too, right?

It's not so much the amount but what you do with it.

 

[Sgt_G]

It's not so much the amount but what you do with it.

Well, when Tony Todd asks / demands $15K per day for a fan film, something's wrong. Do you really need big-name actors to do a good film?? Save your money and seek auditions from the local thespians club.

 

[Indysolo]

If they ban funding of any kind then that effectively kills fan productions as we know them.

And people can thank Alec for that. He wanted rules, he's going to get them. Alec will settle with CBS/Paramount, but it's not going to be in his favor. It's going to be tough for him, but the alternative is an expensive court case. What would you do?

Neil

 

[Sgt_G]

Axanar may be the worst offender, but the other fan-films are also technically lawbreakers, just in a more modest, less brazen way.

True, and nobody up-topic has ever said anything the others weren't impinging on copyrights. But it's kind of like Axanar was doing 90 MPH in a 55-zone, while everyone else was doing 60. They all could get a ticket, but which one is the cop going to pull over?

The law doesn't care whether somebody has a noxious personality. All they care is whether they broke the law or not.

Being noxious doesn't help his case one bit.

Scenario One:
Cop: Do you know you were doing 90 MPH?
Driver: Oh, sorry. I wasn't paying attention. I'll slow down.
Cop: Okay, I'll give you a warning, but I'll be watching you.

Scenario Two:
Cop: Do you know you were doing 90 MPH?
Driver: Well, *bleep* you! Why didn't you pull over all these other guys who are also over the limit?
Cop: Please step out of the car, sir.

 

[mos6507]

It's not so much the amount but what you do with it.

The idea of fairness is very very subjective here. That's why these debates keep raging.

If Paying Tobias was okay, would it have been equally okay to raise 50 million and pay ILM?

Things were moving down a slippery slope even before Axanar started. I know I'm in the minority opinion on that one, but I think people just became way too used to the idea of single productions raising a series of ongoing six-figure crowdfunding campaigns. And I say that as a real genuine fan of Continues. But if something seems too good to be true, it usually is.

BTW, I haven't seen this photo from the fan-event yet. See if you can spot Waldo....

 

[Krandor]

I though peters hated the jjverse. Why would he even want to be at a beyond event in the first place?

 

[Ithekro]

But it's kind of like Axanar was doing 90 MPH in a 55-zone, while everyone else was doing 60. They all could get a ticket, but which one is the cop going to pull over?

Depends on the car (and the IP). Going that fast might have caused Axanar to go through time if they have 1.21 gigawatts worth of donor backing. At which point they can change the rules, but probably caused the NuTrek universe to exist because of their meddling in time.