Batman: The Killing Joke animated movie from Bruce Timm
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
- Start date
Mark sounds like he did for TAS... just the right amount of insane and creepy. Conroy... he still gives me the good sort of chills.
I can't say I'm crazy about the choice of cover image. They've chosen an image taken from the most controversial and problematical part of the story, the objectification of Barbara by the Joker that even Alan Moore has expressed regret for. That doesn't exactly reassure me that they'll approach it more sensitively.
It is literally the most iconic image from the comic. Its also the cover image of the comic. I figured that there was a less than 0% chance it wouldn't be the cover. I can't see how anyone could be surprised.
As for the cover, I think it looks good. I can't wait for the movie to come out. I haven't been this excited for a DC animated movie in a while.
You come out with some really weird criticisms sometimes. Doing any aspect of a story where everything is driven to the limit in a "sensitive" manner - whatever that means - would be a massive mistake. The more disturbing, the better it will be. If you disagree, this might not be a story you should be following.
What's weird to me is how clueless the posters on this board often seem to be about social and ethical issues that are well-understood and widely discussed on other SF-media and comics sites. As I said, even Alan Moore has admitted that The Killing Joke's treatment of Barbara was a mistake, and the producers of this movie have stated on various occasions -- all discussed earlier in this very thread, so it's odd that you'd be unaware of it -- that they did, in fact, intend to handle Barbara's storyline better and hopefully make up for Moore's self-admitted mistakes. So it's not at all "weird" for me to have that expectation for the film and to be disappointed by something that seems to show otherwise. Granted, that image was the cover of the original graphic novel, but I think the "birth of the Joker" image with all the HAHAHAs in the background is probably more iconic and would be better as a cover.
Well, that's an interesting opinion, but there are no ethical issues that I'm aware of. Only matters of opinion, about art, which vary wildly. An ethical issue in storytelling would be something like plagiarism, no?
I'd like to read his opinion about that, but it remains an opinion, nothing more. There are no hard facts when it comes to tone & style.
I tend to leave older posts lay until the topic comes around again. It's unfortunate that they're going to try to 'fix' something that I think most fans would rather have stay as is.
Your perception of "most fans" is very different from mine. If you aren't even aware of how controversial TKG's treatment of Barbara has been for decades, then you're clearly not all that conversant on the breadth of fan opinion about the book (or creator opinion, for that matter). The controversy comes up often on the comics news sites I frequent, like ComicsAlliance and Comic Book Resources.
And I don't think there are all that many Batgirl fans who are okay with seeing one of the best female characters in comics reduced to a mere prop in a conflict between men, fridged for the sake of a story that has nothing to do with her, reduced to a sexualized and helpless victim after decades as a strong, confident, heroic role model for girls and young women. From what I gather, the overall consensus among fans of Barbara Gordon is that this plot development didn't have anything positive come out of it until John Ostrander and Kim Yale turned Barbara into Oracle in Suicide Squad (something they did specifically because of their disaste for Moore's treatment of the character). A story in which such a profound change happens to Barbara Gordon should at least be about Barbara Gordon to some degree, should at least give her agency and a voice and a substantive role to play, instead of just reducing her to a plot device. That seems to be what the makers of TKJ are trying to do, though it looks like it's more by adding new material around the existing story than by changing the story itself. But these producers have had a variable track record when it comes to their handling of female characters, so it's an open question whether they'll succeed or not.
I don't see why using that image is any indication of how they are going to handle the stuff with Barbara. We already know that stuff was going to be a part of the movie, so I don't see the problem with using the comic's trademark image for the movie's cover.
I didn't realize Brian Azzarello was writing the script, that's cool.
I didn't realize Brian Azzarello was writing the script, that's cool.
With the "R" rating don't expect a "sensitive" sugar coating of this story. Like it or not that's what happened and it needs be dramatized that way. After the great versions of "Dark Knight Returns" and "Red Hood" we got I have confidence this will be a faithful adaption.
Last edited:
And honestly, the Joker is such a sick... jerk... that him doing something like that is not out of character.
I'm aware of the off-track opinions those sites often present. In general, blogger opinions are not worth much to me, they get paid to generate discord. The most beloved stories tend to get targeted by these people, I pay their opinions no mind.
That's a very narrow way of reducing a vital plot point to a spooky soundbite. I seriously doubt that one of the most popular stories of all time is secretly disliked by most comic fans.
This is just a explanation of why you personally dislike it, so don't say that Moore did something "unethical", that veers into censorship territory, and I have a zero tolerance policy for censorship of art.
No, it isn't. I was actually always quite a fan of TKJ, and I didn't realize the unfortunate implications of its treatment of Barbara (which, again, Alan Moore himself has admitted to and expressed regret for) until I read about how upsetting and triggering it was for many female readers. From my own male perspective, I had no reason to be upset by it, until I realized that other people different from myself were upset by it. It's out of empathy for their reactions that I've looked beyond my own selfish perspective, because it's just basic human decency to be considerate of other people's feelings rather than devaluing them because they aren't identical to your own.
This is a completely backwards way of looking at art. Art is, at the end of the day, just something that is supposed to make you feel something. It needs no other purpose. That is what makes art art, bottom line. If someone doesn't like a piece of art, then that is not a justification for demanding it be changed because art is also not mandatory - if you don't like it, it is your responsibility to avoid it, full stop. The story is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, complaining about that is to complain that water is too wet.
It's like Zach Snyder movies. ZS is on record that the only aspects of superheroes he personally likes are the sex & killing. I think he's a grade A moron & his movies are shallow edgelord crap, but I also don't go torture myself by watching them, then whine about how much I was tortured by them. That's infantile behavior.
I recently read the graphic novel, and I though the overall story was great, but the treatment of Barbara was absolutely atrocious.
It's worth keeping in mind that these kinds of stories tend to be saying something, and by completely ignoring Barbara's perspective on what happened, a lot of people see that as the story saying that what she experienced didn't matter. That is not right, in a situation like this, I would say that her experience and reaction to what happened to her is more important than Batman's or her fathers. By looking at it purely from their perpsectives, they are (probably unintentionally) making it look like she is just an extension of those characters rather than a character in her own right. At least that's the way I've always understood the complaints about these kinds of stories.