I still think both Khan and Marcus were in cohoots
Who sabotaged the warp drive?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
How could they not have been?
Khan worked for Marcus; he had access to materiel, information and transportation only thanks to Marcus, who possessed Khan's crew and could thus veto anything and everything he didn't like about Khan's actions. OTOH, Marcus used Khan as an advisor, and could thus be manipulated by Khan.
Khan had no reason to attack S31 or Starfleet Command or the Klingons, nor any reason to cooperate with these parties, other than when this advanced his plans of getting his crew back. OTOH, Marcus wanted to attack all three parties as part of his plan to ignite a war.
Khan nevertheless had plenty of opportunity to score with all of his attacks. He did not - S31 wasn't damaged enough to stop operations, Marcus wasn't gunned down, the Klingons were barely touched. So supposedly Khan was just playing pretend until he could be rejoined with his crew.
Really, ST:ID is one of the finest plot knots ever tied in Trek writing, with plenty of complexity and little in the way of loose ends (save for the exact identity of the guy, gal or AI who sabotaged the engines!). And what else should we expect when two villains priding themselves on their big brains and ruthlessness scheme against each other?
Timo Saloniemi
Khan worked for Marcus; he had access to materiel, information and transportation only thanks to Marcus, who possessed Khan's crew and could thus veto anything and everything he didn't like about Khan's actions. OTOH, Marcus used Khan as an advisor, and could thus be manipulated by Khan.
Khan had no reason to attack S31 or Starfleet Command or the Klingons, nor any reason to cooperate with these parties, other than when this advanced his plans of getting his crew back. OTOH, Marcus wanted to attack all three parties as part of his plan to ignite a war.
Khan nevertheless had plenty of opportunity to score with all of his attacks. He did not - S31 wasn't damaged enough to stop operations, Marcus wasn't gunned down, the Klingons were barely touched. So supposedly Khan was just playing pretend until he could be rejoined with his crew.
Really, ST:ID is one of the finest plot knots ever tied in Trek writing, with plenty of complexity and little in the way of loose ends (save for the exact identity of the guy, gal or AI who sabotaged the engines!). And what else should we expect when two villains priding themselves on their big brains and ruthlessness scheme against each other?
Timo Saloniemi
Hey maybe it was that chick with the white hair on the bridge, the one with the funky hairstyle. She looked shifty 
Kirk made love to two caitains. It's nice that they acknowledged that species as those were in TAS
Kirk made love to two caitains. It's nice that they acknowledged that species as those were in TAS
Well, who knows what a "proper" Caitian is supposed to look like in live action? There were characters who were furry all over, just like M'Ress, in ST4:TVH and ST5:TFF, but those didn't look exactly like her, either; there might be dozens upon dozens of feline-looking species out there, with slight differences. (Canonically, there are the Caitians and the Kzinti who look nothing alike.)
Mind you, I do like a gal with a good-looking tail as much as the next guy - perhaps it's popular among 23rd century humans to get one?
Timo Saloniemi
Mind you, I do like a gal with a good-looking tail as much as the next guy - perhaps it's popular among 23rd century humans to get one?
Timo Saloniemi
No, Section 31 is an illegitimate criminal organization which remains hidden from the general public and is answerable to no one by means of influencing powerful higher-ups in the Federation government and Starfleet Command. They use an interpretation of the thirty-first section of the Starfleet Charter to justify their actions. The CIA is a legitimate government agency known to the public and is answerable to the civilian government. The two are very different from each other.
OK I didn't know that. I thought they were a legitimate organization but secret.
Howcome they have never been disbanded if they are illegal?
Howcome they have never been disbanded if they are illegal?
I don't think it was ever made 100% clear exactly how legit 31 is. They're sort of like the men in black of the federation. All I know is that in DS9 they are portrayed as a spy group that does covert attacks that can't be traced to star fleet, but in the JJ universe they seem more like a militia.
Like I said, they have influence over powerful figures in the Federation and Starfleet and are able to blackmail them for protection.
Although, in Pocket's novel continuity, Section 31 will be disbanded by the early 25th century.
OK alternate fan fiction time. Did Section 31 begin back in old Earth as Section 1?
From what I recall, the organization's name refers to the section of the (Earth) Starfleet Charter, containing language which was interpreted as allowing a secret, unaccountable agency capable of acting in times of "extraordinary threat".
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You want the maximum fanboy small universe specsplanation?
Following First Contact in 2063, Zefram Cochrane and Lily Sloane (and others) founded Earth Starfleet to develop human FTL spaceflight, space exploration, diplomacy, and defense in light of their first interaction with alien species and their glimpse of the future thanks to the Enterprise crew.
Lily, being in charge of developing the defensive arm of Starfleet, also incorporates, with the best of intentions, a secret intelligence and operations directorate based on Section 31 of the newly conceived Starfleet Charter. This directorate was created with the purpose of creating defenses and tactics for the coming Borg threat as well as any other massive threats Earth may face in the future that were above and beyond the capabilities of normal Starfleet. As such, they were given greater legal and logistical autonomy in service of the greater good.
Members of Lily's family have remained in prominent positions in the organization throughout its subsequent 200 year history, culminating in her descendent Luther Sloan (the last name has changed slightly over the centuries) being one of its leaders in the 24th century.
Oooh......... I like the fanboy explanation.
I was also thinking of my own fan fiction lol. It wasn't very good but I wrote a story about Section 1 from LFN and how it evolved to become Section 31 in a kind of convoluted manner ..
That show despite being on Earth had a lot of scifi elements.
There's more to SF than being set in space.
I do know that.
So you think Marcus knew that Khan was going to fire on the top brass conference? IIRC, Marcus himself was wounded during that firefight. I find it unlikely that he planned that whole thing.
And why would Marcus want Khan to blow up Section 31's secret base?
To ignite a war......
He wanted a war and what better way then do do this attack and then rope the Klingons into it with the Enterprise.
Yes he got injured in that attack but Khan was skillful enough to kill everyone but him. It was a setup and that's my opinion. Also the transwarp transporter. Starfleet confisicated that from Scotty and Section 31 turned it into a portable device. Khan had to get his hands on that device and Marcus let him.
This is just all my personal opinion, the movie doesn't say either way if they had planned this together or not..
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