Fear the Walking Dead Season 2 discussion and spoilers.

[shapeshifter]

To be fair we need to give the Captain an opportunity to respond...

Spoiler

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[STEPhon IT]

Right. Sure. Nobody knows about it. It's only been recognized by every seafaring nation on the planet for centuries. But otherwise it's totally obscure.



As I just said, it has already lasted centuries, and it will continue to last as long as the planet's surface is seventy percent water and people build floating vehicles to get across it.



Look, the yacht carries two inflatable launches. Any time the Idiot Family thinks Strand's command must be abandoned they have the option of piling into one or both launches and striking out on their own and following whatever survivor policies they feel like. Strand might agree to that. Any attempt to forcefully remove Strand from command of the boat is illegal and immoral, no matter how untrustworthy Strand is.

Even Caribbean pirates, who had democratic pecking orders, treated their captains as the final authority once they elected them. What you have here is a similar situation. The group, by default, elected Strand captain by following his lead to the boat, onto the boat, and out to sea with him at the helm. He's Captain. Period. They may not like how he runs his ship, but since they didn't bother to come up with a non-violent way to terminate his command, that's tough titty, kid. They can mutiny, they can abandon, or they can suck it up and keep following him. The option so many here seem to want the Idiots to take is the most violent - and illegal - one.

Yeah, but Rick in the other show is the asshole...

Well, said Admiral2. Well said.

 

[theenglish]

- He was perfectly healthy yet being detained by the Army in a holding facility for people who were infected or suspected of being infected, meaning he was in there for some unrelated reason.
- He had established a rapport with the guards and was bribing them for favors, yet they still considered him dangerous or troublesome enough to keep locked up.
- He taunted a man in the makeshift prison until the man challenged the guards, getting him killed, just for the sport of it.
- He left the other prisoners locked up to die, even the ones who weren't infected.
- He seemed to have some insider knowledge or insights into the government response to the outbreak. Now, this could mean nothing, as so did the pimply high school kid, but it could mean something sinister.
- He has the skills and demeanor of a con man, which, while handy in the ZA, is not the most trustworthy attribute.
- He refuses to sleep or allow anyone else the chance to operate the boat. His complete lack of respect and trust for the others is therefore reciprocated by them. His lack of sleep endangers the group. His lack of delegation indicates paranoia and poor command decisions.
- He refuses to disclose any of his plans or share anything about his decision-making process before acting.
- He cut loose a potentially useful survivor who was in a raft being towed to San Diego and already given the supplies she needed for that trip, meaning she no longer posed any additional threat or burden to him. He did this unilaterally and without warning.
- There are no identifying marks in either the house or the boat to indicate they were actually his. No pictures, no documents of ownership with his name on it, no indication of his residence there prior to the ZA. It could be nothing and it just hasn't been addressed on the show, or it could be more of his "mysterious" background.
- He treats Travis like Gilligan despite him being the only one with the technical skills to actually fix the boat, which makes him invaluable to the team.
- He lies and deceives by omission on a regular basis, is paranoid and distrustful, treats everyone like servants or irrelevancies at best, constantly gives every indication that he'll ruthlessly leave people behind without a second thought, and vaguely threatens the children of the other survivors.
- He's distrusted by Salazar, a former intelligence operative and still a pretty bad dude, who recognizes a kindred spirit and fears for his daughter's life as a result. His instincts and experience should not be discounted.
- Their destination is a fortified mansion stocked for a siege or disaster in Baja California, which just screams "cartel." Might not be and he may just be a very rich doomsday prepper, though. We'll see.

That's a pretty thorough list. Usually when I ask for examples on this board I get a repeat of the same arguments.

All the stuff in the detention centre though is questionable as to who in the group knows about it. The drug-addict is certainly less believable than Strand. As for the rest, the series suffers from the writing there, because the rest of the group has not really compared notes other than Salazar speaking with them in the previous episode. As for the "law of the sea", the crew can always mutiny if they choose to--they have not done that yet.

One thing I very much like about this series is that, so far, there is no clear leader as Rick always was in the parent series. I'm very much intrigued about what the answers are to a lot of these questions. I just wish the characters were as complex and interested as TWD (at least in the early seasons).

I'm actually thinking that Strand is going to turn out to be the hero of the series.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Davejames and Locutus made some great arguments.

And let's not forget that Strand has NO ONE at either his home or boat. If he's so rich, he would have several employees. But he couldn't trust ONE of them to be around, or trust ONE enough that they could bring their family?

Highly highly suspicious, and as Davejames mentioned -- they could easily be fodder.

It's still early in the apocalypse, so Strand hasn't had a chance to establish himself as a Governor yet.


Now all that being said, I think most of us who are very suspicious of Strand still think he's a great character for the show who brings mystery and "needed" conflict for a drama show. The actor is a great fit for the role, and I certainly hope he sticks around for a while, though I expect him to be killed at some point.

Also, this season is supposed to be 16 episodes, and there's a 3rd season with about 17.... I doubt the Abigail will last that long, and Strand will be without leverage some time in the near future.

 

[theenglish]

Strand could very well be the bodyguard of some drug lord. He suit when we meet him certainly fits that. I doubt that he was actually involved in the government.

But, until this point, he hasn't done anything nearly as evil as what Travis and Daniel did in the first season--unleashing the horde.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Since everyone is apparently supposed to adhere to the ironclad Laws of the Sea in the apocalypse (and I suppose they won't jaywalk while escaping zombies, the five second rule is still in effect if a zombie drops some finger food, and Nick must puff-puff-pass or face certain death under the 420 statute), then I suppose Gilligan, Ginger, Mary-Ann, and Professor Feelgood can mutiny against the Skipper on account of him failing in his duty to render assistance at sea:
________________________________________

“Article 98 (1) of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982 (UNCLOS) requires masters of vessels sailing under the flag of signatory States to render assistance to those in distress at sea. It is primarily a State duty fulfilled by the master of the vessel. The master is freed from this requirement only in circumstances where the assisting vessel, the crew or the passengers on board would be seriously endangered as a result of rendering assistance to those in distress.

“Other international conventions iterate this requirement and the attendant limitation. Regulation V/33 of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea 1974 (SOLAS) imposes an obligation on masters of vessels who are in a position to provide assistance to do so. Further, Chapter 2.1.10 of the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue 1979 (SAR) obliges States Party to the Convention to ensure that assistance is provided to any person in distress at sea, “regardless of the nationality or status of such a person or the circumstances in which that person is found”.

“Finally, the position at treaty law with respect to the duty to render assistance is a general reflection of customary international maritime law. This means that masters of vessels flying the flag of non-signatory States are also required to render assistance where safe and able to do so.

“The law is therefore clear. States, both signatories and non-signatories to the above conventions, are duty bound to ensure those in distress at sea are rendered assistance on a non-discriminatory basis. Whether vessels sailing under their flag operate in either a private or public capacity, the requirements incumbent upon the masters of the vessels are the same.

http://www.maritime-executive.com/blog/blog-unclos-and-the-duty-to-render-assistance
____________________________________

Some yacht owners off of Florida and in the Mediterranean have had to deal with this when encountering Cuban and Libyan or Syrian refugees.

http://megayachtnews.com/2016/04/migrant-rescue-at-sea-is-your-yacht-prepared/
http://www.thesuperyachtowner.com/feature/24229/migrant-crisis-insurance-implications
_____________________________________

Now, you can make a solid argument that the large group of people floating by on the boat in the first episode posed a danger to the yacht survivors, not just as a resource issue but in having potentially overwhelming and threatening numbers, but it's going to be much harder to explain how the tiny Asian woman in the raft also poses a threat to Captain's Contagious, Torture Dad, Serial Killer Lad, Stannis Baratheon's Narco-Survivalist Son, the leader of the Grounders from The 100, and their guns and knives and gigantic boat. She must have a hell of a metabolism if she was going to eat most of their food between there and San Diego.

I mean, I think it's ridiculous that we're even talking about adhering to old world laws and customs in the apocalypse, but since some people insist that no one would break the social contract and the laws of the sea, Strand (apt name, since he keeps stranding people) should get punished by Posiedon, Aquaman, The Little Mermaid, or whatever imaginary entity enforces those rules now that governments have virtually ceased to exist and their dwindling forces are blowing the crap out of their own people en masse. Maybe someone can find one of the Nemos and ask him what to do.

Or Strand can stop being such a mysterious dick to the rest of the crew of the HMS Walkerbait before they finally get fed up and turn on him, laws of the sea be damned.

 

[theenglish]

Well we do have to wait and see what the consequences of stranding the girl and her boyfriend are.

 

[sojourner]

illegal

LOL, waiting for the court episode now. Oh, right, what court?

 

[Crow T. Robot]

- He was perfectly healthy yet being detained by the Army in a holding facility for people who were infected or suspected of being infected, meaning he was in there for some unrelated reason.
- He had established a rapport with the guards and was bribing them for favors, yet they still considered him dangerous or troublesome enough to keep locked up.
- He taunted a man in the makeshift prison until the man challenged the guards, getting him killed, just for the sport of it.
- He left the other prisoners locked up to die, even the ones who weren't infected.

All of which only Nick knows, and he 1.) wasn't fully cognizant during that period and 2.) he's pretty much the only person on the boat who doesn't distrust Strand all that much. So again, all you're showing is that's what the audience knows.

- He seemed to have some insider knowledge or insights into the government response to the outbreak. Now, this could mean nothing, as so did the pimply high school kid, but it could mean something sinister.

Which is something pretty much no one really knows. Or has even brought up that I can recall. And as you pointed out, a lot of people have been paying attention to the situation even before it went critical, and they met him well after it had.

- He refuses to sleep or allow anyone else the chance to operate the boat. His complete lack of respect and trust for the others is therefore reciprocated by them. His lack of sleep endangers the group. His lack of delegation indicates paranoia and poor command decisions.

They have proven that they're untrustworthy time and time again. They constantly question his motives (even though they have had very little reason to other than because the writers making them more paranoid than they should be), they've passively threatened to take the boat over, and they repeatedly have shown a willingness to do incredibly stupid things out of a misguided sense of compassion (which Strands knows would likely be disastrous). You know, like picking up that entire boat full of people a few episodes back.

Oh, and they also snooped through his personal things behind his back. Even breaking into his locked footlocker.

I wouldn't want to sleep around those people myself, let alone give them command of my ship.

- He refuses to disclose any of his plans or share anything about his decision-making process before acting.

Neither do the others, really. Not until they start whining to him when he rejects their ill-conceived plans.

- He cut loose a potentially useful survivor who was in a raft being towed to San Diego and already given the supplies she needed for that trip, meaning she no longer posed any additional threat or burden to him. He did this unilaterally and without warning.

How was she "potentially" useful? SHE'S the reason the kids were swarmed by zombies! All she's proven is that she's a drain on resources and willing to risk other people's lives to save her own.

Also, Strand made it crystal clear that he didn't want her on his boat. But he didn't have the time or willingness to argue the point while they were standing still, not with the pirates still out there potentially (and by potentially, I actually mean potentially, as in that there is a real, known chance) still looking for them. So he made the executive decision -- which is completely his right as captain -- to just ignore them, get them to safety, then while they were distracted enact exactly what he said he was going to do by cutting her loose.

If anything, he showed some compassion by allowing them to give her food and water at all.

Of course, this is waaaaaaaay past the point where they've shown that they don't trust him, so it's a moot point to this topic as a whole anyway.

- There are no identifying marks in either the house or the boat to indicate they were actually his. No pictures, no documents of ownership with his name on it, no indication of his residence there prior to the ZA. It could be nothing and it just hasn't been addressed on the show, or it could be more of his "mysterious" background.

So? There's no information that any of it belongs to them either. Yet he had the keys, he knew where everything was, and he knows how to operate all of the major systems on the boat. Only a fool would assume it didn't belong to him without any proof.

- He treats Travis like Gilligan despite him being the only one with the technical skills to actually fix the boat, which makes him invaluable to the team.

Wrong. Travis treats himself that way. Strand just doesn't do anything to stop him from wanting to work on the boat.

I mentioned this before, but apparently that was worth ignoring. In the last episode, who brought the clogged intake out to who? Oh right, Travis to Strand. Who woke Travis up when the boat was making some funny sounds? Oh, right, Travis woke himself up and took it upon himself to investigate it.

Strand didn't ask him for diddly squat.

- He lies and deceives by omission on a regular basis, is paranoid and distrustful, treats everyone like servants or irrelevancies at best, constantly gives every indication that he'll ruthlessly leave people behind without a second thought, and vaguely threatens the children of the other survivors.

Yes, and? Who on the boat has been completely forthcoming and honest about everything? I can't think of anyone myself. Hell, they have a bloody psychopath on board just waiting to emerge and become a serial killer, but everyone seems completely blind to him. I'd be more worried about that kid than I would Strand any day of the week.

- He's distrusted by Salazar, a former intelligence operative and still a pretty bad dude, who recognizes a kindred spirit and fears for his daughter's life as a result. His instincts and experience should not be discounted.

And he sure as hell should distrust Salazar. Doubly so if he knew what he had done prior to meeting up with him. And that's only what's been shown on screen, not his past. (And I don't think he was an intelligence operator; more like a Cartel guy.)

- Their destination is a fortified mansion stocked for a siege or disaster in Baja California, which just screams "cartel." Might not be and he may just be a very rich doomsday prepper, though. We'll see.

Yes, and that's a reason for them to have treated him the way they treat him up until that information was learned... how exactly?

 

[theenglish]

Thanks to Crow T. Robot for laying out all those points. Strand obviously has something to hide to us the viewer, but in the context of what the characters know the families have done much more horrible things than Strand up until this point. I don't think I'd want to sleep either knowing what he knows about them.

 

[Admiral2]

Since everyone is apparently supposed to adhere to the ironclad Laws of the Sea in the apocalypse (and I suppose they won't jaywalk while escaping zombies, the five second rule is still in effect if a zombie drops some finger food, and Nick must puff-puff-pass or face certain death under the 420 statute), then I suppose Gilligan, Ginger, Mary-Ann, and Professor Feelgood can mutiny against the Skipper on account of him failing in his duty to render assistance at sea:

Oh no! Locutus has hoist me upon my own petard! (Swoon!) What e'er shall I do???

I know! I shall highlight the following

“Article 98 (1) of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982 (UNCLOS) requires masters of vessels sailing under the flag of signatory States to render assistance to those in distress at sea. It is primarily a State duty fulfilled by the master of the vessel.

And point out that the last time I checked the Abigail wasn't flying any nation's flag, signatory or otherwise, so if the trigger for this requirement is a banner of nationhood then Strand is well within his rights as owner of the vessel to say "screw them" as long as he's not stupid enough to hoist the stars and stripes.

“The law is therefore clear. States, both signatories and non-signatories to the above conventions, are duty bound to ensure those in distress at sea are rendered assistance on a non-discriminatory basis. Whether vessels sailing under their flag operate in either a private or public capacity, the requirements incumbent upon the masters of the vessels are the same.

And again, the Abigail is not flying any flag. She therefore claims no nationhood and therefore is not bound by this clause. As I said before, she's a pirate vessel.

Now, you can make a solid argument that the large group of people floating by on the boat in the first episode posed a danger to the yacht survivors, not just as a resource issue but in having potentially overwhelming and threatening numbers, but it's going to be much harder to explain how the tiny Asian woman in the raft also poses a threat to Captain's Contagious, Torture Dad, Serial Killer Lad, Stannis Baratheon's Narco-Survivalist Son, the leader of the Grounders from The 100, and their guns and knives and gigantic boat. She must have a hell of a metabolism if she was going to eat most of their food between there and San Diego.

But until he delegates that responsibility to someone else, deciding who gets to get on the boat is Strand's right and right alone, Skinny Minnie's metabolism notwithstanding.

I mean, I think it's ridiculous that we're even talking about adhering to old world laws and customs in the apocalypse, but since some people insist that no one would break the social contract and the laws of the sea, Strand (apt name, since he keeps stranding people) should get punished by Posiedon, Aquaman, The Little Mermaid, or whatever imaginary entity enforces those rules now that governments have virtually ceased to exist and their dwindling forces are blowing the crap out of their own people en masse. Maybe someone can find one of the Nemos and ask him what to do.

The Nemos are too busy looking for Dory. But it doesn't matter, since the laws and conventions we're talking about predate the governments that the ZA wiped out by about a thousand years and still work without them.

Or Strand can stop being such a mysterious dick to the rest of the crew of the HMS Walkerbait before they finally get fed up and turn on him, laws of the sea be damned.

Or, he can just set their ungrateful asses adrift and be done with them. Let someone flying a flag pick them up.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think anyone here is denying that either side is trustworthy. The only real issue is this silly "they should do whatever he says without question" argument.

 

[Admiral2]

I don't think anyone here is denying that either side is trustworthy. The only real issue is this silly "they should do whatever he says without question" argument.

Then how about the "They should offer up more logical alternatives to just saving everybody and praying" argument?

 

[Crow T. Robot]

I don't think anyone here is denying that either side is trustworthy. The only real issue is this silly "they should do whatever he says without question" argument.

I don't know anyone (sensible) who thinks that.

I'm just of the opinion that they shouldn't be treating him as badly or suspiciously as they are; the vast majority of that distrust was just thrown into the characters by the writers, using the knowledge only the audience knows about. That's quite literally bad writing. At least as far as I'm concerned.

I mean, did they ever actually thank him for saving Nick? Or inviting them into his house? Or allowing them to join him on his yacht? I really can't remember if they did or not, and I suspect it's mostly not. Or, at the very least if they did, it wasn't particularly sincere or heartfelt.

 

[sojourner]

The bad writing is in the fact that any normal group of people would be talking more. To get to know each other a little bit and determine how to work together.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

I can't fault you there.

But that's a problem with television (and even film) all around.

 

[sojourner]

Bad writing always has characters not asking "why?" at the most logical points.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

And point out that the last time I checked the Abigail wasn't flying any nation's flag, signatory or otherwise, so if the trigger for this requirement is a banner of nationhood then Strand is well within his rights as owner of the vessel to say "screw them" as long as he's not stupid enough to hoist the stars and stripes.

And again, the Abigail is not flying any flag. She therefore claims no nationhood and therefore is not bound by this clause. As I said before, she's a pirate vessel.

Well then make up your mind, are they a vessel operating under a legal authority and still holding up some now defunct legal and social contract just for shits and giggles, or are they a rogue pirate ship? Because you can't have it both ways. If they're a pirate ship, there's no social contract, it's every man for himself and survival of the fittest. And Strand might very well be the fittest in this case, but then y'all can't complain about how the others are breaking some now ridiculous law of the sea by daring to question his au-thor-i-tai or violating his property rights by opening a footlocker. Pirate law is less an actual law and more like guidelines, like parley.

If there truly was never any flag flying (and btw, this could just be an oversight on the part of the showrunners rather than a deliberate story choice), that just makes Strand's position all the less trustworthy. 150-foot megayachts don't just anchor off the coast of Los Angeles indefinitely without being registered to a flag state, and even non-signatory nations to UNCLOS (such as the US) have their own maritime laws and traditions that demand that even private vessel owners render assistance to vessels or persons in distress on the sea, which is why I posted the articles about yachts and their requirements for picking up refugees in situations like Cuba, Libya, and Syria. So if Strand owns an unregistered megayacht, he's definitely shady and working for the cartel or someone else doing something illegal, which is all the more reason why appeals to legal and social contracts are silly, especially when the governments that enforce them no longer exist.

But until he delegates that responsibility to someone else, deciding who gets to get on the boat is Strand's right and right alone.

Yes, it's his "right" by (fragile) convention, though not in any legally enforceable sense as you just demonstrated above, but my point was that you guys are complaining about them questioning his "command" and decisions, when he goes out of his way to engender the very distrust and rebelliousness you hate in the others at every turn. Which is not the mark of either a trustworthy person or a competent captain.

But it doesn't matter, since the laws and conventions we're talking about predate the governments that the ZA wiped out by about a thousand years and still work without them.

I'm pretty sure not abandoning or cutting loose vessels and persons in distress would fall under those same laws and conventions you're saying would still hold up in the apocalypse, yet you've decided to prioritize property and privacy rights and the law of the sea over basic human decency and rendering assistance to those in distress.

So which is it? Are we following the traditions of the sea or are we saying "Fuck it, I got mine" and leaving desperate people in life rafts to die? Because you can't reasonably hold both positions.

Or, he can just set their ungrateful asses adrift and be done with them. Let someone flying a flag pick them up.

YES! He can (try to) do that, and they can use their greater numbers and their own firepower to take the ship from him if he tries it. Which is exactly my freakin' point. You're talking about laws and conventions that don't exist any more, and cherry picking when and when not to follow them, when the only law that matters any more is the law of the jungle... err kelp forest?

He's supposed to be this great reader of people, yet he's not seeing that his dictatorial and secretive behavior is turning the greater number of people (who are also armed) on the boat against him, and also the only guy who can repair the boat or sabotage it if need be.

 

[Trekker4747]

Wrong. Travis treats himself that way. Strand just doesn't do anything to stop him from wanting to work on the boat.

I mentioned this before, but apparently that was worth ignoring. In the last episode, who brought the clogged intake out to who? Oh right, Travis to Strand. Who woke Travis up when the boat was making some funny sounds? Oh, right, Travis woke himself up and took it upon himself to investigate it.

Strand didn't ask him for diddly squat.

You sort of miss the point. Travis did the good and right thing by investigating the noises being made by the Abagail's engines' and we don't know how he came to investigate and tackle the problem. We see him cock-blocked by odd engine noises, he shoots out of bed and then cut to some period of time later when everyone is awake in the main room of the ship and Travis is looking over the boat's manuals saying what he thinks the problem is.

I mean, what was Travis supposed to do? Nothing at all and allow the ship's engines to overheat and burn themselves out ruining the ship and stranding them?

The issue isn't Travis fixing the engines, yes he did that seemingly on his own free-will but it was also something that needed to be done and, apparently, he's the only who has enough technical know-how to do it or at least muddle he way through. The issue is on how Strand *treats* him during the process. Strongly and dismissively. Here's a man working to repair an engine part on his boat, one that needs to be fixed in order to keep things operational, and he's ordering him around like a deck hand going, "Get it done by the end of the day."

"Well, sorry, Captain Kirk. I'm not Scotty and I'm not a miracle worker. I'm a hobby mechanic on a 40-year-old Ford truck working on modern yacht. Hell, the engines I worked on were gasoline and this one is diesel! So, you'll excuse me if it takes me some time to get things going and to make sure I do it right or we're going to break down again, maybe permanently. So it'll get done when it gets done."

Travis seems to make the call on his own to fix things, but this doesn't give Strand carte blanche to treat Travis like shit and boss him around. You don't boss around the guy doing you a favor, particularly when you need him and have no other options on getting things fixed.

 

[Crow T. Robot]

You sort of miss the point.

No, I really didn't.

Travis did the good and right thing by investigating the noises being made by the Abagail's engines' and we don't know how he came to investigate and tackle the problem. We see him cock-blocked by odd engine noises, he shoots out of bed and then cut to some period of time later when everyone is awake in the main room of the ship and Travis is looking over the boat's manuals saying what he thinks the problem is.

I mean, what was Travis supposed to do? Nothing at all and allow the ship's engines to overheat and burn themselves out ruining the ship and stranding them?

And during any of that, when did Strand show up, hit Travis upside the head with his hat, and go "Ohhhhh, Gill...Travis!"? I must have missed that scene.

Strand doesn't treat Travis like Gilligan at all. Travis detected the problem first, and began addressing it without even telling Strand as far as we know. When Strand showed up to investigate what was going on, he saw Travis going at it and apparently having some clue about what he was doing -- far more than Strand himself did, being the rich guy he is who usually pays people to do this sort of thing (but oh yeah, some of you are of the mind that he's still not the rich guy the show has repeatedly shown him to be; my bad).

The issue isn't Travis fixing the engines, yes he did that seemingly on his own free-will but it was also something that needed to be done and, apparently, he's the only who has enough technical know-how to do it or at least muddle he way through. The issue is on how Strand *treats* him during the process. Strongly and dismissively.

As opposed to how he treats everyone else all the time... how exactly?

Travis seems to make the call on his own to fix things, but this doesn't give Strand carte blanche to treat Travis like shit and boss him around. You don't boss around the guy doing you a favor, particularly when you need him and have no other options on getting things fixed.

Oh, sorry. You're just expecting the character to change his entire personality on a dime. Again, my bad. Totally misunderstood that you were an advocate of making the writing even more poor on the show.