How would a society with no money work?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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Serving drinks is not a crappy job, and they necessarily won't do it eight hours a day. Most really crappy jobs would be done by some sort of automation anyway. (And it is not like anyone actually needs drinks to be served to them. They can get them from the replicator by themselves just fine.)
In a world where you can do anything (architect, painter, musician, run your own restaurant, explore space, you name it) serving drinks most definitely is... a crappy job.
Running your own restaurant is a lot of work and a lot of responsibility, not everyone wants that. And not everyone has interest for art (let alone talent.) And if we are talking about people serving drinks at Ten Forward, it is a bloody marvellous way to see interesting places and people without actually having to commit yourself to Starfleet.
Then be a writer, painter, sculpture etc. Anything you want.
And if you want to explore space... replicate a ship. I don't buy this space-waiters nonsense at all.
So who builds them and what do they recieve for their labour?
And whatever your answer is... why wouldn't he also build me one?
Ship construction is governments, not individuals.
"Then be a writer, painter, sculpture etc. Anything you want"
Not everyone has those talents. Some people are artistic, some are mathematical, some are spiritual, and some are social.
Some people just like to be social and met people all the time. Talk and such. There are people who like the environment of restaurants and bars but would rather be doing something useful than drinking or eating all day.
"Then be a writer, painter, sculpture etc. Anything you want"
Not everyone has those talents. Some people are artistic, some are mathematical, some are spiritual, and some are social.
Some people just like to be social and met people all the time. Talk and such. There are people who like the environment of restaurants and bars but would rather be doing something useful than drinking or eating all day.
Pride enough for the hobby? Lol, everyone can do it for some time. maybe Joseph Sisko can do it when his mood is right. But doing it everyday? With discipline schedule, in his whole life? While he is doing his hobby, he can't go anywhere. He must be in his restaurant or cafeteria, wait for the customer to come. he can't go anywhere, because he must be there, every day, doing the same thing again and again for years.
For a grand father, he would love to meet Jack. To talk with his grand son everyday, to watch Jack grow. But he not. he stay at his restaurant persistently, with full responsibility. It's not a hobby. It's a job.
Now, can you stay in your shop everyday, from Monday to Saturday; at 8 AM to 4 PM; to serve people. Work the same thing everyday, for your whole life; sacrificing other things (maybe you can't go fishing, or watch movie, or playing PC game, etc) just for a hobby? LOL. Something like that need dedication. Even if it's fun at the start, it won't be fun enough after several years.
In today world, people do mundane / boring thing like that just because they get paid for it. They do it to survive. To be able to life. And they call it a job, not a hobby. How about the Star trek TNG era people? Oh no they are no longer human, they can do those mundane boring things everyday just for a hobby, lol.
If you feel you can do that, then try it now.
And which energy source that is free to get? Solar? Geothermal? We have done that now, and it's still not enough. It seems that they are not particularly sooo amazing. Specially in Star Trek TNG era where the energy needs is unimaginable if compared to our energy need now.
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Like the Alaska permanent fund, everyone in Alaksa get a annual check from the state government from taxation on oil production, last year it was just under 2,100 dollars.
How is it "clearly?" Plus how do you fit that in with the inventor of the Solaton Wave, who intended to sell his invention for money?
Unless what we're seeing are people with jobs that pay, and they have a economy that requires money to make purchases, then they would need to do it.
But if they had the option of doing the exact same thing, for the same number of hours a day, AND get paid for their efforts ... wouldn't people take that option instead of the one where they labor for no compensation?
One Earth coffee shop doesn't pay it's wait staff, while the one across the street does AND they make tips. Where would most waitresses desire to work?
It's the same activity, and the same amount of fun (but one earns you money to get into a dance club).
There is no money and no need for the money. The dance club is free, everything is either free or not purchasable with money in the first place (such as starships.)
Isn't Finland one of those countries?
European countries have lots of progressive ideas that the rest of the world are too squeamish to try.
Except it's stated on screen that within the federation, there is no money. (as opposed to say ds9, where there is. Because it's not in the federation.) So money is no longer a motivation at all within the federation....you don't need it for anything at all so it doesn't exist.
Since the best education etc is now dependent on merit and need, it is essentially available to all. If you choose to spend a few hours a day serving drinks, because you enjoy it...why not? The hard parts are done, there's no cleaning, no barrel changes or delivery unless you are also doing the whole historical reenactment thing that seems to exist, and if you don't fancy doing it..
Don't do it. Someone else will, or a hologram can be whipped up, and it hasn't affected anyone. There's no competition for staff as such, and you don't have to worry about costs...because the product is free. You could ask about renting premises, but thats probably as simple as inherited land in families (like the Picard's) or asking the federation council to use a piece of real estate that's not needed for anything else. Transport isn't a problem, you could open a restaurant in the serengeti and people could still go there....urban sprawl isn't a problem, the population is likely smaller than now planetwide (world war 3, spreading out through the galaxy on colonies etc) and you don't need swathes of farmland or even fresh water supplies to keep everyone alive.
So yeah...I could be an artist in the morning, a writer in the afternoon, and serve drinks in the evening, all safe in the knowledge that there's a good roof over my families head and food in their stomachs, and the education and entertainment is right there.
Sort of like being a rich sod of a celebrity now, owning a pub built onto their country pile.
In terms of the soliton wave guy, wasn't he from a non federation world? He would sell it for money on his own planet perhaps. Or even to the federation from outside it.
Or, if all he said was 'it will make me rich' he may not be talking about money at all.
There's plenty of on screen evidence and dialogue that shows this is exactly how the federation works.
That people don't like that idea, or don't understand why someone would do something for nothing just because it suits them or because they can, is more to do with the individual than the fact it absolutely would work, given the level of advancement we see in trek.
Remember...earth is a paradise. That's hammered in over and over on screen
If the piano player on Qualor II gets tips, why wouldn't a piano player on Earth get tips?
And then it's stated that there is money, and the mentions of the existance money outnumber the money doesn't exist suggestions.
Quark required money to purchase transportation From Earth to DS9.
And when Sisko refers to Earth as a paradise he says that Earth has no poverty, no crime, no war. He never says no money. Lack of poverty doesn't immediately mean the lack of money.
The only people we see 'needing' money or using it are either not federation citizens or are operating outside the federation, as in the two examples you mention.
Why would a piano player on earth need tips? Nothing is bought with money, there is no money, unless he has an interest in collecting coinage or is going for some kind of authenticity in his particular historical approach to his craft, he just doesn't need it.
Once you take out the 'if I don't do this I will starve and have no shelter' aspect, you would be surprised how many 'jobs' become hobbies. Even today, historical 'jobs' no longer needed become hobbies (mores the pity in some cases, should we ever have to fall back on those crafts, so few practise them that expertise is lost.)
Theres not much call for swordsmithing or armoursmithing these days, so they have become hobbies (unless that rare moment some is needed for a film or similar artistic reason comes up)
Once upon a time those would have been important trades.
People probably still program in Basic, but it's the equivalent of a toy for the most part.
Now extrapolate all of that to a future where money and wealth does not buy you any advantage at all over anyone else....What's the point Anymore? The 'riches' one becomes judged by become reputation, skills, experiences, not abstract numbers in your bank or the size of your house. Because those things are meaningless.
Trade around the edges of the Federation, that's interesting, officers keeping latinum for the sake of playing games or dealing with groups outside of the Federation now and then....That's different again. But there's little outside the federation of actual need (if anything) that cant be got for free within it. And anytime the federation needs something from outside, we tend to see it bartering rather that outright buying.
It's easy to get your head around I think, even if some of the thinking behind it may be politically or ideologically uncomfortable.
We just move around and around. The things that you write has been discussed previously by the other posters. So for the sake for us to not return to step one again, please read the previous posts in this thread.
Some of those other posters are me, I assumed responding to responses to my own posts would be the nature of a forum, answering points and refining them, dealing with specific examples.
It's not like this is some kind of argument, in the negative sense, but an argument/discussion in the positive sense. *shrug*
I don't like the idea of socialist utopias as much as the next western capitalist child, but, Trek essentially is that in many ways (certainly when discussed in University)
I think it's always worth thinking about the fact it's also post apocalyptic, and many of its obsessions with the the late 20th century could in many ways be compared to the Renaissance from their perspective. So the human society in Trek copies some of the models of our time, but the reasons for it are different, the underlying reasons are different.
Anyway, to each their own.
Unless Earth operates some elaborate barter system the concept of a non monetary economy for me is laughable. Earth being Paradise with no money, crime and poverty? Well I suppose 22nd century Earth has two classes middle class and upper middle, where the miniumun wage is 500 credits per hour or some other crazy rate. As for no crime, human nature won't change that much. Racism and sexism might have died a death, but specism/real racism will probably replace old style skin tone racism and tribalism. I can imagine the shock meeting species where having pale skin means absolutely nothing, since blue is the colour of intelligent beings lol (I like Andorians lol)
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