How would a society with no money work?

[Brainsucker]

I think much of the core value of gold pressed Latinum as Ferengi currency stemmed from the fact that it could not be replicated (or likely transported). Thus allowing Feregi society and economic health to be based on a Latinum standard. Weirdly and almost counter intuitively in Star Trek this is probably the only bit of future economics that is not complete and utter hogwash, actually makes sense, and would hold up to scrutiny.

Yeah let that sink in. Likely the only species or civilization depicted in Star Trek, that could in fact likely really function... Is the Ferengi.

So what if the gold pressed latinum is also used as the material of Photon or Quantum Torpedoes core? What if it used as the computer circuit? What if it used for something? Even the gold and diamond are used as the material of something in real world.

Plus, starships need dilithium, and replicator can't make it. If not, why Voyager needs to visit a planet and restock? Why the limited number of photon torpedoes aboard is problematic for them? If replicator can build everything, They won't have any worry about the limited number of Photon Torpedoes.

so the most logical answer is that trading is still happen in 24th century Star Trek. Federation still do trade. Maybe Earth Government still conduct trade with Vulcan, Klingon, Bajor, etc. But the people on Earth can get their daily necessity free, because of the government subsidies.

 

[E-DUB]

It also occurs to me that the first generation replicators (on second thought, let's call them second generation as 3D printing might be able to claim being first gen) would work on the molecular level, but not the atomic. In other words, you want something made out of gold, you got to feed gold in. Still handy, but not nearly so as the full up TNG version. Perhaps TOS's food slots were of this middle caliber and whipped up chow from handy vats of CHON, with trace elements thrown in (and you don't want to think about where some of those molecules came from).

 

[Ithekro]

It is still possible that we just can't imagine an economy with abundant resources and the potential for all human society's needs being capable of being provided on a planetary or greater scale. I didn't think our species has ever experience that before so there is no model to emulate. We've used barter and currency for several millennia now so we can't grasp how a system could work without them.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

It also occurs to me that the first generation replicators (on second thought, let's call them second generation as 3D printing might be able to claim being first gen) would work on the molecular level, but not the atomic. In other words, you want something made out of gold, you got to feed gold in. Still handy, but not nearly so as the full up TNG version. Perhaps TOS's food slots were of this middle caliber and whipped up chow from handy vats of CHON, with trace elements thrown in (and you don't want to think about where some of those molecules came from).

On a starship everything is recycled into the replicators. EVERYTHING!

BAWAWAWAA AHAHAH

 

[Longinus]

so the most logical answer is that trading is still happen in 24th century Star Trek. Federation still do trade. Maybe Earth Government still conduct trade with Vulcan, Klingon, Bajor, etc. But the people on Earth can get their daily necessity free, because of the government subsidies.

Yes, its probably something like this.

 

[TwoJakes]

Voyager ... If replicator can build everything, They won't have any worry about the limited number of Photon Torpedoes.

The worry that Janeway and Chakotay had early in season 1about the torpedoes and the inability to make more was owing to the difficulties they were having with the replicators at that time, and not (I believe) that the replicators can never make the components that make up a torpedo. Later they either regain the ability to make torpedoes, or they had someone outside the ship manufacture torpedoes for them. The latter would have involved technology transfer, which Janeway seemed opposed to.

If Earth in the 24th century has a functional economy, I don't see why people would be unable to purchase their needed goods and services. Being dependent on government subsidies as your sole source of basic essentials would surely indicate the existence of a systemic problem.

Government subsidies as a fall back position for select individuals in troubling situations yes, but not for the general population as the everyday norm.

 

[hux]

It is still possible that we just can't imagine an economy with abundant resources and the potential for all human society's needs being capable of being provided on a planetary or greater scale.

I think we can imagine it quite easily. What's harder to accept is that this kind of society would instantly result in humanity "evolving" away from greed, personal ambitions, individualism, class etc so quickly. Maybe after an extremely long time but not with emmediate effect as Trek essentially posits. Couple of centuries later, we're a different biological species. That's the bit I don't buy.

Didn't TNG go out of its way to highlight that replicated stuff just wasn't as good as the real thing (the food and drink inparticular). So it stands to reason that this applies to everything else. As such, I can totally buy that people still want the real thing and that is the foundation of the economy in the replicator age.

 

[Longinus]

If Earth in the 24th century has a functional economy, I don't see why people would be unable to purchase their needed goods and services. Being dependent on government subsidies as your sole source of basic essentials would surely indicate the existence of a systemic problem.

Government subsidies as a fall back position for select individuals in troubling situations yes, but not for the general population as the everyday norm.

That's quite limited mindset. If the government has the means to provide for its people why not do it?

 

[Brainsucker]

The worry that Janeway and Chakotay had early in season 1about the torpedoes and the inability to make more was owing to the difficulties they were having with the replicators at that time, and not (I believe) that the replicators can never make the components that make up a torpedo. Later they either regain the ability to make torpedoes, or they had someone outside the ship manufacture torpedoes for them. The latter would have involved technology transfer, which Janeway seemed opposed to.

If Earth in the 24th century has a functional economy, I don't see why people would be unable to purchase their needed goods and services. Being dependent on government subsidies as your sole source of basic essentials would surely indicate the existence of a systemic problem.

Government subsidies as a fall back position for select individuals in troubling situations yes, but not for the general population as the everyday norm.

Voyager = Well, that's the question. Maybe they did some trade with the planet that they visit. Maybe the Voyager has already has the manufacture capability to produce Torpedoes, but they didn't have the materials. We don't know about that.

Subsidies = You have a good point there. It's hard to see that the government subsidies everyone on the planet. But if they all work for the government, then it makes sense, as the government (Employer) have the responsibility to fulfill the welfare of their employees. Plus, they don't pay their employee with money. So I think it's much much cheaper for the government (Federation) to give their employee free daily necessity, give them the right to use the governments vehicles, give them the right to use the government house on Earth, and even pay them to enjoy the beauty on Risa; rather than pay them with un-replicated Gold Pressed Latinum as their wages.

To avoid the discontent, they can just throw some propaganda. so Picard, Sisko, etc can become a proud Starfleet Officer and throw their life for the government.

The Earth Government (Federation) is just a cheapskate.

 

[E-DUB]

Possession based status melts away when everybody can have anything. However, position based status would remain as not everybody can be anything. We saw a bit of this in the early days of America's space program when astronauts had a lot of status (among other things) when they weren't earning any more than any other military man with the same rank. Save the world a few times like Jim Kirk and you never have to pay for a meal again, well maybe not a meal because there's no money, but you get the idea.

 

[Griffeytrek]

So what if the gold pressed latinum is also used as the material of Photon or Quantum Torpedoes core? What if it used as the computer circuit? What if it used for something? Even the gold and diamond are used as the material of something in real world.

Plus, starships need dilithium, and replicator can't make it. If not, why Voyager needs to visit a planet and restock? Why the limited number of photon torpedoes aboard is problematic for them? If replicator can build everything, They won't have any worry about the limited number of Photon Torpedoes.

so the most logical answer is that trading is still happen in 24th century Star Trek. Federation still do trade. Maybe Earth Government still conduct trade with Vulcan, Klingon, Bajor, etc. But the people on Earth can get their daily necessity free, because of the government subsidies.

If you actually follow that chain of thought out, and pay careful attention throughout the various episodes, it becomes clear that the Federation (and likely Klingon Empire) function more or less on a "Dilithium Standard". Energy is the unit of currency and Dilithium is the physical source/medium of that energy. This is why the loss of Praxis was so devastating to the Klingons. This is why so many of the conflicts involving the Federation and/or the Klingons center around Dilithium sources or transport.

 

[Griffeytrek]

The worry that Janeway and Chakotay had early in season 1about the torpedoes and the inability to make more was owing to the difficulties they were having with the replicators at that time, and not (I believe) that the replicators can never make the components that make up a torpedo. Later they either regain the ability to make torpedoes, or they had someone outside the ship manufacture torpedoes for them. The latter would have involved technology transfer, which Janeway seemed opposed to.

If Earth in the 24th century has a functional economy, I don't see why people would be unable to purchase their needed goods and services. Being dependent on government subsidies as your sole source of basic essentials would surely indicate the existence of a systemic problem.

Government subsidies as a fall back position for select individuals in troubling situations yes, but not for the general population as the everyday norm.

You can actually follow a logical path through this one. Starting from the above assumptions that Dilithium, the main energy source, cannot be replicated. (while never said outright, it is pretty deeply implied throughout most series, books, games, media etc. It seems to be a clear constant. "engine breaks need more dilithium".) Now Dilithium is clearly the deeply concentrated energy source that they use to power everything. Engines, life support, replicators, etc. The whole society is contingent on turning energy into matter on demand.

Well Voyager has now found itself in a situation where their energy reserves are low or deeply depleted, with no clear path to replenishment. This means careful rationing of the energy they have in order to insure food, life, propulsion etc.

But what else would require a deeply concentrated energy source to make? Why maybe an extremely powerful physical weapon such as a Photon Torpedo! It would need Dilithium both as its propulsion fuel and likely as a core element of its explosive payload. Even if the Dilithium is not the main payload itself it is likely the high energy trigger charge to set off the higher order technobabble kaboom.

So we follow that chain of thought through to it's logical conclusion. Voyagers low energy reserves likely meant they could not manufacture or replenish torpedo's early on. Once they found or traded for Dilithium resources throughout their journey they were likely able to spare some to add to their arsenal.

 

[Brainsucker]

If you actually follow that chain of thought out, and pay careful attention throughout the various episodes, it becomes clear that the Federation (and likely Klingon Empire) function more or less on a "Dilithium Standard". Energy is the unit of currency and Dilithium is the physical source/medium of that energy. This is why the loss of Praxis was so devastating to the Klingons. This is why so many of the conflicts involving the Federation and/or the Klingons center around Dilithium sources or transport.

Yes, that's the key answer here. Dilithium. I agree with you. There is no abundant energy resource in the Star Trek TNG era. We can compare it to the food industry in today (our real world today) and the food industry in Medieval Era / Renaissance era.

Numerically, we can say that our food industry today is way more abundant than the old time. The chicken meat production, the eggs, the milk, the rice, wheat, etc. We can produce them more than the people in medieval era can imagine. But guess what, Our need is also raise significantly. Our people today needs more food than the people in our ancestor era. So it's always the same, or even worse.

In the Star Trek TNG era, energy resource is more abundant than ours. But the needs of energy is also raise significantly. Not only that, new technologies demands more rare material. I believe that most of them can't be replicated. Who know the newest phaser technology in Nemesis era require a metal that can only found in some planets in the galaxies, and it can't be replicated. Or the newest holographic technology needs a resource that you can't easily find in the universe.

And the most important thing is that the Federation is responsible for the live of the people in thousand planets. So guess what? Abundant resource is always impossible to achieve.

 

[TwoJakes]

That's quite limited mindset.

Not at all. If you're not having a heart attack, why have the fire department come to your house and give you CPR?

If the government has the means to provide for its people why not do it?

If that's your only avenue for survival, then sure. But for those who have independent financial means, government support wouldn't be a requirement.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Not at all. If you're not having a heart attack, why have the fire department come to your house and give you CPR?
If that's your only avenue for survival, then sure. But for those who have independent financial means, government support wouldn't be a requirement.

But there would not be any "rich" or "poor" in the Federation, at least not the version Picard and company tell us about. That's the impression I get.

 

[E-DUB]

Everybody has enough. Some folks have just enough, some folks have more than enough, but nobody has less than enough or much more than enough.

 

[TwoJakes]

But there would not be any "rich" or "poor" in the Federation, at least not the version Picard and company tell us about. That's the impression I get.

But wouldn't Picard's brother Robert be "richer" than Bashir's father owing to Robert being a (apparently) successful businessman?

How far would Earth Gov be willing to go to ensure that everyone is on a economy level playing field? Would they restrict the number of customers Joseph Sisko can have, if he is getting too far ahead to the restaurant down the street? Go so far as to having the local police stand outside and turn patrons away.
If person A has a better business plan than person B, does person A get grabbed in the middle of the night, and sent to the colonies?

In the real world not everyone is the same, some people are simply going to be more successful than others. Which means we're going to have the poor and the wealthy. "The Poor" might be the equailent the modern day lower middle class, but unless everyone is at the same level, the latter is going to have a botton rung.

 

[Longinus]

Neither Robert Picard or Joseph Sisko are business men. They're hobbyists that give stuff away for free.

 

[TwoJakes]

Not hobbyists at all. Sisko is a flourishing restauranteur, apparently had been one for decades. Picard's prosperous family wine business is multigenerational. Sisko's restaurant and home are in a lovely three story building that Sisko likely owns outright. The Picard family has a fair amount of land (we see it in two episodes) and a large country house.

Both are men of means (especially Picard), and are racking in the money. Neither is giving away their product.

 

[Longinus]

Both are men of means (especially Picard), and are racking in the money.

But there's no money.

Neither is giving away their product.

How do you know?