It's interesting that for you this one was a failure, while for me it was one of the best of the second season.
In contrast, Second Sight earns 3.5/4 stars for you, while for me this one is dreadful.
We're each right from our own Points of View....
Another Re-watching DS9 thread (spoilers)
- Thread starter benjaminh
- Start date
It's interesting that for you this one was a failure, while for me it was one of the best of the second season.
In contrast, Second Sight earns 3.5/4 stars for you, while for me this one is dreadful.
We're each right from our own Points of View....
I saw that
It really is amazing how different folks can see things so differently. One of the great parts of being a trek fan and being on the message boards. Always a chance to benefit from different perspectives.
Original promo for Profit and Loss:
I liked this one. Somehow it's another one that I've never seen before. As it says in the DS9 Companion, the plot was inspired in part by Casablanca—with Quark taking the Bogart role! Atypical, but I liked it. But I liked Garek's role even better. I think he plotted out the whole last scene.
Anyway, I rate it a B+
I liked this one. Somehow it's another one that I've never seen before. As it says in the DS9 Companion, the plot was inspired in part by Casablanca—with Quark taking the Bogart role! Atypical, but I liked it. But I liked Garek's role even better. I think he plotted out the whole last scene.
Anyway, I rate it a B+
So the way I'm thinking about my ratings, I feel like episodes that rate a B or better are worth putting on the recommended list. By that measure, for me the the second season was stronger than the first season. For the first season, I have only 8 out of 20 episodes on the watch list (counting The Emissary as 2), which is 40%. For the second season, if I've counted right, 15 out of the 26 episodes make my recommended list, which is a success rate of over 55%. Wonder how that will look for the third season....?
My ratings so far....
DS9's first season
Emissary: A-
Past Prologue: B+
A Man Alone: B-
Babel: B-
Captive Pursuit: B+
Q-Less: C-
Dax: C-
The Passenger: C+
Move Along Home: C-
The Nagus: B-
Vortex: B+
Battle Lines: C+
The Storyteller: D+
Progress: B
If Wishes Were Horses: D+
The Forsaken: D+
Dramatis Personae: C+
Duet: A+
In the Hands of the Prophets: A+
DS9's second season
The Homecoming: A+
The Circle: A+
The Siege: A+
Invasive Procedures: C+
Cardassians: B+
Melora: C-
Rules of Acquisition: B-
Necessary Evil: A-
Second Sight: D
Sanctuary: C
Rivals: C-
The Alternate: B-
Armageddon Game: C+
Whispers: A-
Paradise: A-
Shadowplay: A-
Playing God: C-
Profit and Loss: B+
Blood Oath: B+
The Maquis I: A-
The Maquis II: A-
The Wire: A-
Crossover: A-
The Collaborator: B+
Tribunal: A-
The Jem'Hadar: A-
My ratings so far....
DS9's first season
Emissary: A-
Past Prologue: B+
A Man Alone: B-
Babel: B-
Captive Pursuit: B+
Q-Less: C-
Dax: C-
The Passenger: C+
Move Along Home: C-
The Nagus: B-
Vortex: B+
Battle Lines: C+
The Storyteller: D+
Progress: B
If Wishes Were Horses: D+
The Forsaken: D+
Dramatis Personae: C+
Duet: A+
In the Hands of the Prophets: A+
DS9's second season
The Homecoming: A+
The Circle: A+
The Siege: A+
Invasive Procedures: C+
Cardassians: B+
Melora: C-
Rules of Acquisition: B-
Necessary Evil: A-
Second Sight: D
Sanctuary: C
Rivals: C-
The Alternate: B-
Armageddon Game: C+
Whispers: A-
Paradise: A-
Shadowplay: A-
Playing God: C-
Profit and Loss: B+
Blood Oath: B+
The Maquis I: A-
The Maquis II: A-
The Wire: A-
Crossover: A-
The Collaborator: B+
Tribunal: A-
The Jem'Hadar: A-
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Hmm Seems I have fallen slightly behind, I'm slacking I will review episodes 4-18 when I get a moment, plus I may have to start series 3 soon as I stalled on my watching (other stuff got in the way) this will give me the nudge I need to start again (I have caught a few later episodes recently anyway as its currently airing on CBS Action in the UK (thats probably why I stopped as thats much further ahead and I might get to a point where I see episodes twice).
Right here goes:-
Cardassians - A decent plot showing the deviousness of Cardassians and and episode with a Garak role tends to be pretty good in my opinion he always has the answers yet will never tell people just let them discover it themselves after pointing them in the right direction.
Melora - I forget large parts of this episode to be honest, but I do remember I don't particularly like Melora (I don't know why) but she is always a character I dislike reading about too in the Titan novels. SO I don't remember liking this episode much.
Rules of Acquisition - A ferengi episode sigh!!, as I said before I did not like many (if any) of the Ferengi episodes and this was not any different.
Necessary Evil - Now I did enjoy this episode, seeing Odo in security chief mode and investigating a crime, though it was quite obvious to me how the episode would play out.
Second Sight - Decent enough filler episode and nice to see Sisko falling for someone as it shows that he is finally over his wife's death, also nice to see that it was not his choice to never see her again (since he fell in love with a alternate personality) Sisko never was a romance of the week style captain so it was nice to see a reason.
Sanctuary - OK, so I also hated this episode I never liked the Skrreans, my biggest problem with some episodes is that because I don't like certain aliens I can't bring myself to like the episode.
Rivals - another episode I disliked when watching, I think it's because the lights in the new casino always gave me a headache (that's the best I can come up with seriously)
The Alternate - an ok episode, not one that I would really like to watch if I had the choice, but a nice back story with Odo and how he was prior to the start of the series.
Armageddon Game - Finally a episode I enjoyed (I swear I do like the show even if it does not look like it in my reviews
) the interplay between O'Brien and Bashir was good, and that the whole thing hinged on Keiko's mistaken belief that miles did not drink coffee during the day.
Whispers - A second O'Brien episode in a row (yeah it surprised me too) and another that I enjoyed and had a good twist at the end.
Paradise - God I hated Alixus, its all well and good having your beliefs but to inflict your beliefs onto other people and 'force' them to do the same is a concept I don't take kindly of. The one thing that did surprise me was that there was no-one who wanted to leave the planet at the end of the episode. So a episode I am iffy with.
Shadowplay - a more sentimental episode that gave me a surprise when you find out the reason of the townspeople disappearance, plus it was always nice to see Odo's softer side rather than the gruff investigator you usually get.
Profit and loss - considering I tend to dislike Quark episodes (usually for the same reason I hate Ferengi episodes in general) this one was not too bad, a bit more about cardassian politics and throw in a Garak dilemma for good measure as surprisingly decent episode.
Blood Oath - I thought I would get to this point before stopping basically the plot is solid and Klingons are often fun to watch but the thing that dragged the episode down for me was Dax, I generally never liked Jadzia and this was not much of a exception, plus how many times are consequences of actions simply forgotten, Sisko told her that she could not go off and do this and simply walk back in and carry on with her job yet what happened? no repreimands, no demotions, no getting a forced transfer anywhere no consequences whatsoever something that should have happened considering the stationery nature of the show consequences should be a natural progression of such a formula.
Cardassians - A decent plot showing the deviousness of Cardassians and and episode with a Garak role tends to be pretty good in my opinion he always has the answers yet will never tell people just let them discover it themselves after pointing them in the right direction.
Melora - I forget large parts of this episode to be honest, but I do remember I don't particularly like Melora (I don't know why) but she is always a character I dislike reading about too in the Titan novels. SO I don't remember liking this episode much.
Rules of Acquisition - A ferengi episode sigh!!, as I said before I did not like many (if any) of the Ferengi episodes and this was not any different.
Necessary Evil - Now I did enjoy this episode, seeing Odo in security chief mode and investigating a crime, though it was quite obvious to me how the episode would play out.
Second Sight - Decent enough filler episode and nice to see Sisko falling for someone as it shows that he is finally over his wife's death, also nice to see that it was not his choice to never see her again (since he fell in love with a alternate personality) Sisko never was a romance of the week style captain so it was nice to see a reason.
Sanctuary - OK, so I also hated this episode I never liked the Skrreans, my biggest problem with some episodes is that because I don't like certain aliens I can't bring myself to like the episode.
Rivals - another episode I disliked when watching, I think it's because the lights in the new casino always gave me a headache (that's the best I can come up with seriously)
The Alternate - an ok episode, not one that I would really like to watch if I had the choice, but a nice back story with Odo and how he was prior to the start of the series.
Armageddon Game - Finally a episode I enjoyed (I swear I do like the show even if it does not look like it in my reviews
) the interplay between O'Brien and Bashir was good, and that the whole thing hinged on Keiko's mistaken belief that miles did not drink coffee during the day.Whispers - A second O'Brien episode in a row (yeah it surprised me too) and another that I enjoyed and had a good twist at the end.
Paradise - God I hated Alixus, its all well and good having your beliefs but to inflict your beliefs onto other people and 'force' them to do the same is a concept I don't take kindly of. The one thing that did surprise me was that there was no-one who wanted to leave the planet at the end of the episode. So a episode I am iffy with.
Shadowplay - a more sentimental episode that gave me a surprise when you find out the reason of the townspeople disappearance, plus it was always nice to see Odo's softer side rather than the gruff investigator you usually get.
Profit and loss - considering I tend to dislike Quark episodes (usually for the same reason I hate Ferengi episodes in general) this one was not too bad, a bit more about cardassian politics and throw in a Garak dilemma for good measure as surprisingly decent episode.
Blood Oath - I thought I would get to this point before stopping
basically the plot is solid and Klingons are often fun to watch but the thing that dragged the episode down for me was Dax, I generally never liked Jadzia and this was not much of a exception, plus how many times are consequences of actions simply forgotten, Sisko told her that she could not go off and do this and simply walk back in and carry on with her job yet what happened? no repreimands, no demotions, no getting a forced transfer anywhere no consequences whatsoever something that should have happened considering the stationery nature of the show consequences should be a natural progression of such a formula.
...Blood Oath - I thought I would get to this point before stopping
Great reviews! Thanks. I mostly agree with you about Dax and Blood Oath, but in the end I liked it for the action—plus they filmed parts of it in a historic Frank Lloyd Wright house. I though it was implied that Sisko was going to have words with Dax about this at some point, but you're right that consequences seemed to be mostly avoided or ignored. But the psychological costs that Kira talked about seemed to be there.
Anyway, with a bit of grade inflation I gave it a B+, but maybe it should have been a B.
Shadowplay...
I'm always a sucker for this episode. I guess I'm a pushover for cute little girls.
The "B&C" stories were OK. Of course someone has to mind the shop while Odo is gone, and of course Quark has to see if he can take advantage. So we get to see the kindling Kira/Bareil relationship. We also start to learn that Jake probably wont fall in his father footsteps and join Star Fleet.
A note about the holographic community. I believe this is the only instance in trek where "omicron particles" are used to generate the holograms. Not sure if I agree with this technobabble creation and don't really see the need to recreate the principles of holographic projection. It had no bearing on the story.
I loved how Odo and Dax met the town’s “protector” Colyus.
“ODO: Are we being accused of some kind of crime?
COLYUS: Have you committed one?”
Then of course Odo beams out, Dax says he’ll be right back etc.
This set the appropriate tone for the story I thought.
But the whole episode for me revolves around this little girl Taya played very nicely by Nola Thornton and her developing relationship with Odo.
We see a side of Odo we haven't seen yet which was enjoyable and the dialog between these two is written and delivered incredibly well.
I don't mind that "rights" weren't dragged into this episode. It really had nothing to do with it anyways. The important part is haw Odo and Dax convince Rurigan that his feelings are real for these folks and their feeling count too. I thought it was very interesting creatively brilliant that the programming for these holograms was written in such a manner that they could have children if they chose to. Couple things caught my attention here. Holograms having children is one thing, but only if they chose to, not programed to, was very telling of the programmer intent from the start. He wasn't just creating window-dressing to make him feel better, he was creating a family(s). All this contributed to the episode and the premise of what he was trying to replace after the Dominion conquered his world. I also liked that Rurigan didn’t run the town, from what we saw the protector did.
Also, Odo's turning into a top at the end for Taya wasn't "cute", it was touching.
Very well done.
3.5 of 4 stars for me.
I'm always a sucker for this episode. I guess I'm a pushover for cute little girls.
The "B&C" stories were OK. Of course someone has to mind the shop while Odo is gone, and of course Quark has to see if he can take advantage. So we get to see the kindling Kira/Bareil relationship. We also start to learn that Jake probably wont fall in his father footsteps and join Star Fleet.
A note about the holographic community. I believe this is the only instance in trek where "omicron particles" are used to generate the holograms. Not sure if I agree with this technobabble creation and don't really see the need to recreate the principles of holographic projection. It had no bearing on the story.
I loved how Odo and Dax met the town’s “protector” Colyus.
“ODO: Are we being accused of some kind of crime?
COLYUS: Have you committed one?”
Then of course Odo beams out, Dax says he’ll be right back etc.
This set the appropriate tone for the story I thought.
But the whole episode for me revolves around this little girl Taya played very nicely by Nola Thornton and her developing relationship with Odo.
We see a side of Odo we haven't seen yet which was enjoyable and the dialog between these two is written and delivered incredibly well.
I don't mind that "rights" weren't dragged into this episode. It really had nothing to do with it anyways. The important part is haw Odo and Dax convince Rurigan that his feelings are real for these folks and their feeling count too. I thought it was very interesting creatively brilliant that the programming for these holograms was written in such a manner that they could have children if they chose to. Couple things caught my attention here. Holograms having children is one thing, but only if they chose to, not programed to, was very telling of the programmer intent from the start. He wasn't just creating window-dressing to make him feel better, he was creating a family(s). All this contributed to the episode and the premise of what he was trying to replace after the Dominion conquered his world. I also liked that Rurigan didn’t run the town, from what we saw the protector did.
Also, Odo's turning into a top at the end for Taya wasn't "cute", it was touching.
Very well done.
3.5 of 4 stars for me.
Quark's performance is the saving redeeming factor in this episode. His constant "courting" of Natima from the Ferengi perspective was entertaining.
...that and Garak's mere presence...
Loved the Quark/Garak dialog in Garak's shop.
Love how Garak can always get a point across without mentioning the real point. IS there a term for that?
3 of 4 stars for me.
I've always loved this episode.
The performances by John Colicos as Kor, Michael Ansara as Kang and William Campbell as Koloth were just outstanding. Outstanding actors reviving outstanding parts.
Love the humor injected throughout the episode.
I'm not sure I agree with Sisko's argument with Jadzia. If someone had slain Jake when he was a young boy Sisko would have been doing the same thing.
Good on her for completing Curzon's blood oath.
I also like how she made significant contributions to this quest. She just didn't show up and swing a bat'leth.
I do agree that this was a big step for Jadzia. This was no easy decision. Taking someone’s life is no joke. Even if it's a child murderer.
The ending in ops was done to perfection.
A 4 star episode IMO.
The Wire...
My personal favorite DS9 episode!
Anything centered around Garak is going to get high marks from me. Such an outstanding character.
I think SF Debris reviews this episode best, especially the reasoning behind the last "version" Garak gave Bashir for why he was exiled.
(I tried to include a link to the vid, but I guess you can't do that)
Garak's final version of why he was exiled includes the location of the retired Enabran Tain. The only one that could save Garak. So, as Garak does so well, he got Bashir to do exactly what he wanted him to do without asking him.
Bashir's commitment to Garak is commendable.
We are introduced to the "Obsidian Order" and meet another outstanding reoccurring character in DS9 - Tain.
Then of course, this historic exchange between Bashir and Garak at the end.
"BASHIR: You gave me answers, all right, but they were all different. What I want to know is of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?
GARAK: My dear Doctor, they're all true.
BASHIR: Even the lies?
GARAK: Especially the lies."
That's so "Garak".
5 out of 4 stars for me.
My personal favorite DS9 episode!
Anything centered around Garak is going to get high marks from me. Such an outstanding character.
I think SF Debris reviews this episode best, especially the reasoning behind the last "version" Garak gave Bashir for why he was exiled.
(I tried to include a link to the vid, but I guess you can't do that)
Garak's final version of why he was exiled includes the location of the retired Enabran Tain. The only one that could save Garak. So, as Garak does so well, he got Bashir to do exactly what he wanted him to do without asking him.
Bashir's commitment to Garak is commendable.
We are introduced to the "Obsidian Order" and meet another outstanding reoccurring character in DS9 - Tain.
Then of course, this historic exchange between Bashir and Garak at the end.
"BASHIR: You gave me answers, all right, but they were all different. What I want to know is of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?
GARAK: My dear Doctor, they're all true.
BASHIR: Even the lies?
GARAK: Especially the lies."
That's so "Garak".
5 out of 4 stars for me.
You've helped me appreciate this episode. I'm going to re-rate it from a B to an A-.
I mean I can understand that with something like TNG and Voyager the ship moves on and consequences of actions get ignored as part of that, but since it was a space station I feel that the consequences should have mattered, they are pretty much in the same place all the while so they really should have played out as such, the other one that always got me was the amount of times that Quark got away with stuff when really he should have been locked up 10x over before the series finished but somehow he always got away with it.
I am sure he would have been, its still not a starfleet thing to do and chances are his superiors would have been warning him about the same thing.
Crossover...
This was DS9's best MU episode (not saying much). The worst part is they go back time and time again.
The "what if things were a little different" pales in comparison to:
"KIRK: If change is inevitable, predictable, beneficial, doesn't logic demand that you be a part of it?
SPOCK: One man cannot summon the future.
KIRK: But one man can change the present. Be the captain of this Enterprise, Mister Spock. Find a logical reason for sparing the Halkans and make it stick. Push till it gives. You can defend yourself better than any man in the fleet.
SCOTT: Captain, get in the chamber!
KIRK: What about it, Spock?
SPOCK: A man must also have the power.
KIRK: In my cabin is a device that will make you invincible.
SPOCK: Indeed?
KIRK: What will it be? Past or future? Tyranny or freedom? It's up to you.
SPOCK: It is time.
KIRK: In every revolution, there's one man with a vision.
SPOCK: Captain Kirk, I shall consider it."
1 1/2 stars because Odo blowing up was cool. But to think for a second this episode had any real meaning or thoughtful writing is nuts.
This was DS9's best MU episode (not saying much). The worst part is they go back time and time again.
The "what if things were a little different" pales in comparison to:
"KIRK: If change is inevitable, predictable, beneficial, doesn't logic demand that you be a part of it?
SPOCK: One man cannot summon the future.
KIRK: But one man can change the present. Be the captain of this Enterprise, Mister Spock. Find a logical reason for sparing the Halkans and make it stick. Push till it gives. You can defend yourself better than any man in the fleet.
SCOTT: Captain, get in the chamber!
KIRK: What about it, Spock?
SPOCK: A man must also have the power.
KIRK: In my cabin is a device that will make you invincible.
SPOCK: Indeed?
KIRK: What will it be? Past or future? Tyranny or freedom? It's up to you.
SPOCK: It is time.
KIRK: In every revolution, there's one man with a vision.
SPOCK: Captain Kirk, I shall consider it."
1 1/2 stars because Odo blowing up was cool. But to think for a second this episode had any real meaning or thoughtful writing is nuts.
The Collaborator...
Winn, knowing the truth finds a way to have Kira reveal it so as to dethrone Bareil before the election. Brilliantly evil.
I also loved the line where we find out that Winn isn't going to sit around and "take" Kira's disrespectful tone:
"Oh, and child, one last thing. I know you're under a terrible strain, but if you're wise, you will never speak to me with such disrespect again."
Louise Fletcher delivers these lines so well. The look she gave Kira was priceless. I just love (or hate) when she says "child" :-)
3 Stars from me.
Winn, knowing the truth finds a way to have Kira reveal it so as to dethrone Bareil before the election. Brilliantly evil.
I also loved the line where we find out that Winn isn't going to sit around and "take" Kira's disrespectful tone:
"Oh, and child, one last thing. I know you're under a terrible strain, but if you're wise, you will never speak to me with such disrespect again."
Louise Fletcher delivers these lines so well. The look she gave Kira was priceless. I just love (or hate) when she says "child" :-)
3 Stars from me.
Tribunal...
Good episode, not great.
Obrien is a member of Star Fleet, a human that is a member of the Federation, serving on a Bajoran space station and the Cardassians basically get away scott free with obducting him outside Cardassian space.
eeesh...
But I do like the court scenes and the constant references to a legal system that makes my skin crawl.
Wonderful performances bt Fritz Weaver as "Kovat the Conservator" and Rene Auberjonois as Odo make this episode watchable and slightly above average.
2.5 star for me.
Good episode, not great.
Obrien is a member of Star Fleet, a human that is a member of the Federation, serving on a Bajoran space station and the Cardassians basically get away scott free with obducting him outside Cardassian space.
eeesh...
But I do like the court scenes and the constant references to a legal system that makes my skin crawl.
Wonderful performances bt Fritz Weaver as "Kovat the Conservator" and Rene Auberjonois as Odo make this episode watchable and slightly above average.
2.5 star for me.
The Jem'Hadar...
I good introduction to the Dominion.
Couple interesting takeaways for me.
#1. I thought the Sisko/Quark growth part of this episode was great. I also liked how committed Jake is to helping his friend succeed.
#2. It was interesting that the Jem'Hadar soldier that was present on DS9 didn't recognize Odo as a founder (neither did the Vorta). I know they couldn't give it away then, but you'd think the brainwashed Vorta would have at least noticed.
Good closer to season 3. A sign of good things to come on DS9.
3 of 4 stars for me.
I good introduction to the Dominion.
Couple interesting takeaways for me.
#1. I thought the Sisko/Quark growth part of this episode was great. I also liked how committed Jake is to helping his friend succeed.
#2. It was interesting that the Jem'Hadar soldier that was present on DS9 didn't recognize Odo as a founder (neither did the Vorta). I know they couldn't give it away then, but you'd think the brainwashed Vorta would have at least noticed.
Good closer to season 3. A sign of good things to come on DS9.
3 of 4 stars for me.
ISeason 2 rankings...
My average is up from season one. Many more above average episodes by percentage. Some truly fantastic trek here. 'The Wire' is in my DS9 top ten.
Necessary Evil 4
Blood Oath 4
The Wire 4
Second Sight 3.5
Shadowplay 3.5
The Homecoming 3
The Circle 3
The Siege 3
Cardassians 3
The Alternate 3
Armageddon Game 3
Profit and Loss 3
The Maquis, part one 3
The Maquis, part two 3
The Collaborator 3
The Jem'Hadar 3
Rules of Acquisition 2.5
Whispers 2.5
Tribunal 2.5
Invasive Procedures 2
Melora 2
Rivals 2
Playing God 2
Crossover 1.5
Paradise 1
Sanctuary 0.5
Total = 70.5
Episode average = 2.711538462
My average is up from season one. Many more above average episodes by percentage. Some truly fantastic trek here. 'The Wire' is in my DS9 top ten.
Necessary Evil 4
Blood Oath 4
The Wire 4
Second Sight 3.5
Shadowplay 3.5
The Homecoming 3
The Circle 3
The Siege 3
Cardassians 3
The Alternate 3
Armageddon Game 3
Profit and Loss 3
The Maquis, part one 3
The Maquis, part two 3
The Collaborator 3
The Jem'Hadar 3
Rules of Acquisition 2.5
Whispers 2.5
Tribunal 2.5
Invasive Procedures 2
Melora 2
Rivals 2
Playing God 2
Crossover 1.5
Paradise 1
Sanctuary 0.5
Total = 70.5
Episode average = 2.711538462
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