People forgot Hitler won the election to be Chancellor of Germany..democracy does not always work.
Which Next Generation Movie was the Best?
- Thread starter indycar
- Start date
Nevermind that. Nemesis not being on the bottom of this poll should be proof enough!
Hitler wasn't elected chancellor, he was appointed by president Hindenburg. Following this, he pushed a law through the Reichstag that gave him "temporary" dictatorial powers.
But yeah, democracy is far from perfect. It is, however, the least worst of the possible options.
It's never really bothered me before but rewatching Generations last night brought home just how bizarre there plot gets from the moment Picard enters the Nexus.
He can leave it at any time and place, apparently, as he returns to Veridian before it ever got there. So why go back only that far? Let's assume he is limited to times/places Picard himself has been (as he replaced rather than joined the Picard of the timeline he reentered) Why not go back to the E-D at the observatory and arrest Soran before he can beam back and capture Geordi? Wouldn't need Kirk, and his whole plan wouldn't rely on beating a guy with a gun this time around because he had one more guy on his side.
He can leave it at any time and place, apparently, as he returns to Veridian before it ever got there. So why go back only that far? Let's assume he is limited to times/places Picard himself has been (as he replaced rather than joined the Picard of the timeline he reentered) Why not go back to the E-D at the observatory and arrest Soran before he can beam back and capture Geordi? Wouldn't need Kirk, and his whole plan wouldn't rely on beating a guy with a gun this time around because he had one more guy on his side.
The Nexus thing is a bit fishy, but it's one of those "movie logic" moments where you just have to go with the flow.
And they could so easily have had avoided the problem. It all comes down to this exchange:
The easy fix would be for Guinan to say "time has no meaning here, but unless the Nexus is interrupted, say, by a passing ship, you can only go back to the moment you left."
The trickier answer would be for Guinan to point out the causality nightmare that might ensue if Picard went back too soon. He might stop Soran but cause something else to happen, or he might change history so that he and Soran never cross paths.
Can I leave the Nexus to warn Moore and Braga against writing the Nexus? Would they end up writing something worse?
And they could so easily have had avoided the problem. It all comes down to this exchange:
GUINAN: But as I said, time has no meaning here. So if you leave you can go anywhere, any time.
PICARD: All right, I know exactly where I want to go. The mountaintop on Veridian Three, just before Soran destroyed the star. I have to stop it. But I need help.
PICARD: All right, I know exactly where I want to go. The mountaintop on Veridian Three, just before Soran destroyed the star. I have to stop it. But I need help.
The easy fix would be for Guinan to say "time has no meaning here, but unless the Nexus is interrupted, say, by a passing ship, you can only go back to the moment you left."
The trickier answer would be for Guinan to point out the causality nightmare that might ensue if Picard went back too soon. He might stop Soran but cause something else to happen, or he might change history so that he and Soran never cross paths.
Can I leave the Nexus to warn Moore and Braga against writing the Nexus? Would they end up writing something worse?
I hated Generations precisely because of what they did to Guinan. It seemed pretty clear during TNG that she was powerful enough to rival Q, and they eluded to that so many times. But in the end? She just wound up being some chick from a race of people who lived a long time. And that was about it. So why the heck was Q terrified of her?! Ugh!
Anyway, even though I'm late to the party, First Contact gets my vote. To be honest, I didn't really like any of them all that much, but FC is the only one I can stand to watch each time I run into it while flipping channels or something.
Anyway, even though I'm late to the party, First Contact gets my vote. To be honest, I didn't really like any of them all that much, but FC is the only one I can stand to watch each time I run into it while flipping channels or something.
While we're on the topic of Nexus and logic, it's also a bit of a stretch the whole 'you can't go to the Nexus so Soran has to make it come to him' thing which explains why he can't just fly into it. Quite what the difference between a ship being destroyed with you on it and a planet being destroyed with you on it is never really clear, but, hey, plot. Except the movie makes it abundantly clear that you can fly into it. Of the four people we know entered the Nexus, Guinan, Kirk, Soran and Picard, three flew into it at some point. If you couldn't fly into it, Guinan couldn't have left an echo, and Kirk couldn't have been trapped for Picard to find.
Except that that analogy doesn't even remotely work for Insurrection, and the total failure of the movie to actually establish the particles as even remotely urgent for anyone other than the Sona is one of the main reasons why the movie is so bad.
If those particles were the cure to some terrible disease ravaging the entire Federation, there might have been a real moral dilemma there, but the thing the movie hammers on again and again is 'fountain of youth', 'increased lifespans', 'live longer'. An organization as medically advanced as the Federation forcibly relocating people for the reasons actually given is basically like the US deciding to steal someone else's country because doing so will provide them with cheaper hamburgers and knick-knacks. They don't need the particles at all, no matter how nice it might be to have them.
I can think of several reasons to dislike GEN, but an ambiguous omission / change in our perceptions of an admittedly minor and purposefully undeveloped and mysterious character would not even be in my top 30.
It's amazing what sets people off.
What one person considers minor, is a major fault to others. It's pretty arrogant to think otherwise.
God forbid there be a major issue with one of the main characters of the movie, especially in that the issue with that character affects the entire storyline and practically everything that occurs in it. Just a minor thing, that.
Like I said...amazing what sets people off.
Moreso when it comes to other people's opinions about things, really.
It's actually a toughie for me to call this. All of them have movements to enjoy and some stupidity to boot. The Nexus is kinda of a concept that harks back to the Guardian of Forever. It's kind of an airy fairy device that they didn't really bother defining, inserted to make the plot go places. In that way, it's kind of an old Star Trek tradition. I don't know, it's a shame they couldn't do something better defined in terms of Kirk's send off. Kirk is almost an afterthought that they didn't know quite what to do with it as the writers write for the TNG crew. But having said that, they could've done worse.
Nemesis is fine. Much of it is a composite of other films and episodes, than something truly original. Insurrection, is kinda more suited to be an episode than necessarily the big screen. But again it was good fare and to slightly contradict myself its nice they had the courage to do a little story for the big screen.
I liked First Contact but the Rambo-Picard stuff always strikes me as trying to scrape the bottom of that character. Nor am I great fan of the Borg Queen as the sultry temptress touching up Data. That always strikes me as a bit corny for something as relentless and as inhuman as the borg. But overall, First Contact is a very watchable film all in all.
Nemesis is fine. Much of it is a composite of other films and episodes, than something truly original. Insurrection, is kinda more suited to be an episode than necessarily the big screen. But again it was good fare and to slightly contradict myself its nice they had the courage to do a little story for the big screen.
I liked First Contact but the Rambo-Picard stuff always strikes me as trying to scrape the bottom of that character. Nor am I great fan of the Borg Queen as the sultry temptress touching up Data. That always strikes me as a bit corny for something as relentless and as inhuman as the borg. But overall, First Contact is a very watchable film all in all.
Star Trek: Insurrection is my favorite. After the Dominion War is over (and put on-hold), Picard and company want to get back to exploring. This movie doesn't deal with the Borg, Klingons, Romulans, Khan, or anything else established in the series. I like stories that use their grey matter, as much as their brawn. Hard-to-do in Star Trek movies, sure, but this movie attempted, and succeeded at doing exactly that. The Federation has just stared down and existential threat to their way-of-life, and now they are being destroyed by themselves--eliminating a culture for a (admittedly) good natural resource--and Picard acts to save both the Ba'ku, and the Federation's ideals. It's a 24th-century morality play. The Son'a have produced Ketrecel White, they conquered two races and formed a caste system. During a traumatic time in my life, when I wanted something I didn't know by-heart, but was the essence of Star Trek, I watched this movie a lot.
So, what stories can Star Trek uniquely tell?
My definition of Trek is the wonderment of what we would find in space, and using that as a prism for the internal journey, adventure. We don't have to go far--a gas station--to see where natural resources have changed how we treat people. This talks about something we all face. The script is fantastic. Picard, Worf, and Data sing--considered one of the low moments in Trek history--but the lines of dialogue before it show Picard is trying to find a way of apprehending Data, without destroying his ship. The grey matter vs. the brawn.
What don't I like about the film?
Ru'Afo's need for revenge, and the action beats leave something to be desired. But from the time they arrived at the planet, until Picard lays down his pips, some of my favorite Trek scenes. The date that doubles as exploring the Ba'ku culture, between Picard and Anij. Geordi talking about the sunset. The Ready-Room scene between Picard and Dougherty. I love them all.
Now, a distant second is Star Trek: Nemesis.
I think the character of Shinzon is a good starting point--a man torn between his humanity, his birth culture, and his adopted culture, the Remans--but he isn't conflicted enough, engages in too much darkness to really relate to him. The Ready-Room scene is fantastic. Picard, his hubris that Shinzon can carry on the family line, on display full-force. Shinzon is tempted, but withdraws, and we now HAVE to fight him. I skip through the movie when I watch it. I see the two scenes I like--Picard and Shinzon's dinner, and the Ready-Room scene. That's about it.
Star Trek: Generations and Star Trek: First Contact, I never watch. But those last two movies were OK, Insurrection being my favorite.
So, what stories can Star Trek uniquely tell?
My definition of Trek is the wonderment of what we would find in space, and using that as a prism for the internal journey, adventure. We don't have to go far--a gas station--to see where natural resources have changed how we treat people. This talks about something we all face. The script is fantastic. Picard, Worf, and Data sing--considered one of the low moments in Trek history--but the lines of dialogue before it show Picard is trying to find a way of apprehending Data, without destroying his ship. The grey matter vs. the brawn.
What don't I like about the film?
Ru'Afo's need for revenge, and the action beats leave something to be desired. But from the time they arrived at the planet, until Picard lays down his pips, some of my favorite Trek scenes. The date that doubles as exploring the Ba'ku culture, between Picard and Anij. Geordi talking about the sunset. The Ready-Room scene between Picard and Dougherty. I love them all.
Now, a distant second is Star Trek: Nemesis.
I think the character of Shinzon is a good starting point--a man torn between his humanity, his birth culture, and his adopted culture, the Remans--but he isn't conflicted enough, engages in too much darkness to really relate to him. The Ready-Room scene is fantastic. Picard, his hubris that Shinzon can carry on the family line, on display full-force. Shinzon is tempted, but withdraws, and we now HAVE to fight him. I skip through the movie when I watch it. I see the two scenes I like--Picard and Shinzon's dinner, and the Ready-Room scene. That's about it.
Star Trek: Generations and Star Trek: First Contact, I never watch. But those last two movies were OK, Insurrection being my favorite.
First Contact is my favourite by far. I know it's a tad shallow, yet the love I had for it when I was younger was never matched with any of the films that followed. I love the conclusion to Picard's Borg arc, even though it introduced us to ActionPicard! and that was probably to the detriment of INS and NEM. I found Data and the Borg Queen fascinating, and I also love the story with Cochran on Earth. Three stories building towards a great conclusion, and then of course the Vulcans arrive.
Generations is very average overall, but it could have been more. It totally falls apart in the last act, with all of the Nexus crap, and the damp squib of a legendary team up between Kirk and Picard. I don't have a problem with the idea of Kirk dying, but the way it was done was very poor. Such a letdown for a film where we get to see the Ent-D look brilliant in a feature film, and a wonderful tense scene where the ship crashes. The shitty decisions Riker goes through in defending the ship shows the film's tendencies for action over logic.
Nemesis is another one with a lot of missed opportunities. I'd put it below GEN, but it does play nicely in terms of action. The Ent-E collision is my favourite Ent-E scene altogether. The idea of having Romulans in a film was originally exciting for me, yet they didn't really do much. The Remans weren't interesting and Shinzon was poorly conceived with the whole 'mistreated by Romulans so I'll destroy Earth' schtick. Data's death was another botched one (though I'm sure the only major character that ever died successfully was Spock), but the ending with the crew toasting him was nice.
Insurrection is a real mess. The case of far too many cooks really ruined any thread of a good idea that was at the start of the story process. And of course Patrick Stewart saying they should do something lighter after First Contact is something I find really hard to hear. I realise they awarded him an Associate Producer role, which was their own stupid fault. At the end of the day, he's an actor, and should stick to what he was being paid to do. A light film about a rebellion against the Federation is an oxymoron. Moving the story away from Romulans, and away from the original Picard/Crusher/academy friend dynamic just lost any sort of personal stakes the crew had.
Generations is very average overall, but it could have been more. It totally falls apart in the last act, with all of the Nexus crap, and the damp squib of a legendary team up between Kirk and Picard. I don't have a problem with the idea of Kirk dying, but the way it was done was very poor. Such a letdown for a film where we get to see the Ent-D look brilliant in a feature film, and a wonderful tense scene where the ship crashes. The shitty decisions Riker goes through in defending the ship shows the film's tendencies for action over logic.
Nemesis is another one with a lot of missed opportunities. I'd put it below GEN, but it does play nicely in terms of action. The Ent-E collision is my favourite Ent-E scene altogether. The idea of having Romulans in a film was originally exciting for me, yet they didn't really do much. The Remans weren't interesting and Shinzon was poorly conceived with the whole 'mistreated by Romulans so I'll destroy Earth' schtick. Data's death was another botched one (though I'm sure the only major character that ever died successfully was Spock), but the ending with the crew toasting him was nice.
Insurrection is a real mess. The case of far too many cooks really ruined any thread of a good idea that was at the start of the story process. And of course Patrick Stewart saying they should do something lighter after First Contact is something I find really hard to hear. I realise they awarded him an Associate Producer role, which was their own stupid fault. At the end of the day, he's an actor, and should stick to what he was being paid to do. A light film about a rebellion against the Federation is an oxymoron. Moving the story away from Romulans, and away from the original Picard/Crusher/academy friend dynamic just lost any sort of personal stakes the crew had.
My top two switch places depending on my mood between First Contact and Generations (right now, I'd say Generations is better for nostalgia purposes). My bottom two rotate out all the time as well depending on my mood (right now, after Mad Max: Fury Road, Lawless, Bronson and The Dark Knight Rises I'm on a Tom Hardy kick, so Nemesis would be my number three).
It's been mentioned in this thread before that Moore and Braga didn't want to aim so high with First Contact after aiming for the stars with Generations, and I remember Berman saying that they didn't want to try to outdo the Borg with Insurrection (as well as being the reason Moore and Braga didn't return). But, it makes you wonder. What would a Braga & Moore Star Trek IX have been like? Braga's always been good about churning out weird stories while Moore kind of balances him out. Could they have come up with something better than Piller, Berman and Stewart did?
If not Braga & Moore, then I would've liked to have seen Braga team up with Joe Menosky since some of my favorite Voyager episodes were done by those two. Or hell, imagine what Ira Steven Behr and Ron Moore could have come up with using a similar plotline to Insurrection (if they absolutely HAD to have used the Fountain of Youth/Heart of Lightness concept)
It's been mentioned in this thread before that Moore and Braga didn't want to aim so high with First Contact after aiming for the stars with Generations, and I remember Berman saying that they didn't want to try to outdo the Borg with Insurrection (as well as being the reason Moore and Braga didn't return). But, it makes you wonder. What would a Braga & Moore Star Trek IX have been like? Braga's always been good about churning out weird stories while Moore kind of balances him out. Could they have come up with something better than Piller, Berman and Stewart did?
If not Braga & Moore, then I would've liked to have seen Braga team up with Joe Menosky since some of my favorite Voyager episodes were done by those two. Or hell, imagine what Ira Steven Behr and Ron Moore could have come up with using a similar plotline to Insurrection (if they absolutely HAD to have used the Fountain of Youth/Heart of Lightness concept)
