If you haven't already, check out the deleted scene below.
Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
I went with "B-", the movie was saved from a "C" or a "C+" solely on the strength of Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman.
The movie is visually stunning, which makes it worth a go in the theater alone. However, the story is just a bit on the incoherent side, and the dream sequences, more confusing than anything, contribute nothing.
The movie is visually stunning, which makes it worth a go in the theater alone. However, the story is just a bit on the incoherent side, and the dream sequences, more confusing than anything, contribute nothing.
In case the spoiler warning on the thread title wasn't enough....there's spoilers below. If you didn't want to be spoiled, you shouldn't be in here anyway.....right? 
Saw it, loved it. Will probably see it again tomorrow. Lex was much better than expected, no where near as annoying as the trailers made him out to be. Gal Gadot was great as Wonder Woman, and holy crap...the magic lasso! The dream sequences were not as jarring as I was expecting as it was pretty clear they were dreams fairly quickly. The slower pace of the first half of the film helped with that. Supes dying....didn't think they'd go that far, and it was handled well. Loved Batman's arc in this, and how he ends up in a more positive place at the end. Really looking forward to the future of DC movies, hopefully the "Batman with Omega Symbol" scene means we'll get Batman away from exclusively night environments.....While I've been okay with the look so far of MoS and BvS, they do need to punch up the color some. Hopefully they'll take a cue from "New Frontier" and embrace an age of "shining silver" with Justice League.
For me the film is a solid A.
Batman had been pushed to the edge by Lex and hearing Superman say "Save Martha" brought back powerful feelings from the darkest moment of his life and gave him pause. The movie made it clear that Bats doesn't like to feel powerless and that's how he felt when his parents were killed. Having been pulled back from the precipice, he realized he wasn't powerless this time around. Finding out about Supes mom took him from "god" to "man". It humanized him in Bats eyes. Batman being a good guy didn't want Supermans mother to die at the hand of criminals like his own had.
And no, they didn't suddenly become "best pals", they came to an understanding about each other and who the real enemy was. Not really sure how people missed that, or why they keep describing it the way you have. The movie was pretty clear on the subject to me.
Good time to be a comic fan though as tomorrow we also get Supergirl / Flash, Daredevil season 2 just came out, and Civil War, X-Men and Suicide Squad right around the corner.
Saw it, loved it. Will probably see it again tomorrow. Lex was much better than expected, no where near as annoying as the trailers made him out to be. Gal Gadot was great as Wonder Woman, and holy crap...the magic lasso! The dream sequences were not as jarring as I was expecting as it was pretty clear they were dreams fairly quickly. The slower pace of the first half of the film helped with that. Supes dying....didn't think they'd go that far, and it was handled well. Loved Batman's arc in this, and how he ends up in a more positive place at the end. Really looking forward to the future of DC movies, hopefully the "Batman with Omega Symbol" scene means we'll get Batman away from exclusively night environments.....While I've been okay with the look so far of MoS and BvS, they do need to punch up the color some. Hopefully they'll take a cue from "New Frontier" and embrace an age of "shining silver" with Justice League.
For me the film is a solid A.
Batman had been pushed to the edge by Lex and hearing Superman say "Save Martha" brought back powerful feelings from the darkest moment of his life and gave him pause. The movie made it clear that Bats doesn't like to feel powerless and that's how he felt when his parents were killed. Having been pulled back from the precipice, he realized he wasn't powerless this time around. Finding out about Supes mom took him from "god" to "man". It humanized him in Bats eyes. Batman being a good guy didn't want Supermans mother to die at the hand of criminals like his own had.
And no, they didn't suddenly become "best pals", they came to an understanding about each other and who the real enemy was. Not really sure how people missed that, or why they keep describing it the way you have. The movie was pretty clear on the subject to me.
Good time to be a comic fan though as tomorrow we also get Supergirl / Flash, Daredevil season 2 just came out, and Civil War, X-Men and Suicide Squad right around the corner.
Release bad Superhero movies too much and in a too short period of time and you can easily kill the golden goose.. it's a small miracle that Marvel didn't have a major dud by this point, even risky movies like Guardian of the Galaxy or Ant Man performed very well.
Bruce did a complete 180 just because he realized that Superman had a mother too? Gimme a break.. this is a Batman who has no problems killing or torturing criminals, who has military grade weapons on his vehicles and who sets out on a crusade against an alien just on the precipice that he might turn evil (when all of his actions to date were trying to help and protect Earth, just in one case with a huge death toll that he couldn't prevent).
Superman is still near invincible and there's not that much Kryptonite readily available to stop him again.. this was Batman's only chance and he chose to end his crusade then and there. We all know that Supes is the master of all good boyscouts but Bruce didn't have any way of knowing that or rather it shouldn't matter to him because there still is this 1% percent chance he might go rogue if something catastrophic would happen in his life (like in his dream sequence where he went villain after Lois was killed) and we know that Cavill's Superman can go berserk if the stakes are high enough.
It just seemed too jarring for me and smelled of "We need to team them up for Justice League so how do we do it?" It didn't feel organic but very arbitrary.
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That was just the kick in the balls he needed to realize what he was doing.
Batman was completely single-minded and focused on his goal and there's really only one thing that could ever throw him off and break his resolve.
I thought that was a great way to end the fight.
Reply to Christopher:
Hi Christopher
I mentioned RDM because he was one of the show-runners and I'd forgotten who'd actually written those episodes, plus they may have required his say-so. As for them getting away with it on the grounds that they were alternate universe characters, you could make the same argument here, given the whole multiverse strategy of DC's. After all Jimmy - albeit played by a different actor and in a different context - is still alive and well on Supergirl.
As for the Marvel Phase One viewing order, to me, if you omit the end credit scene from Captain America which basically comprises a trailer for Avengers Assemble and the boxing ring scene repeated in that film , it does - contemporary framing scenes notwithstanding - fit nicely at the start of Phase One. Whilst to me, the post credits sequence in Thor segues nicely into Avengers Assemble.
Now obviously we don't know yet whether the whole of Wonder Woman will be set in WWI or if the solo Batman film will pre-date either Man of Steel or Batman v Superman, but if they do then watching the films in chronological order, may put a different spin on things. For what its worth I wish DC/Warners had gone with the Marvel approach of stand alone fils followed by a team-up and then repeat the cycle over.
Hi Christopher
I mentioned RDM because he was one of the show-runners and I'd forgotten who'd actually written those episodes, plus they may have required his say-so. As for them getting away with it on the grounds that they were alternate universe characters, you could make the same argument here, given the whole multiverse strategy of DC's. After all Jimmy - albeit played by a different actor and in a different context - is still alive and well on Supergirl.
As for the Marvel Phase One viewing order, to me, if you omit the end credit scene from Captain America which basically comprises a trailer for Avengers Assemble and the boxing ring scene repeated in that film , it does - contemporary framing scenes notwithstanding - fit nicely at the start of Phase One. Whilst to me, the post credits sequence in Thor segues nicely into Avengers Assemble.
Now obviously we don't know yet whether the whole of Wonder Woman will be set in WWI or if the solo Batman film will pre-date either Man of Steel or Batman v Superman, but if they do then watching the films in chronological order, may put a different spin on things. For what its worth I wish DC/Warners had gone with the Marvel approach of stand alone fils followed by a team-up and then repeat the cycle over.
I'm reminded of that line of The Penguin's from the very first Batman film when they've de-hydrated five of his goons:
'Be careful, every one of them's got a mother.'
The movie experience needs to be something you can't get at home. So it has become about the roller coaster ride. Otherwise you aren't getting people to spend $10-$20 for a ticket.
Yes. As we've seen with the Abrams Trek films and The Force Awakens.
I have some issues with Batman vs. Superman, but the spectacle alone made it worth the price of a ticket.
Just because I, personally, have issues with the choices the creators made, doesn't mean they were generally bad choices.
Sorry, I don't buy it. Batman is the World's Greatest Detective. Surely he must realize that everyone has a mother. Surely he's had 18 months to investigate Superman and learn everything he could about him, rather than just blindly charging forward with a "kill him" plot without ever taking a moment to research his opponent. He could've deduced from the evidence that Superman had been on Earth for a long time before coming out, that he must've had a civilian identity and a family. And surely he knew that every criminal he killed had a family as well.
And in the context of his much-trailered speech to Alfred, that even a 1% chance of Superman being a threat requires his extermination no matter what, surely that would override any minor sentimental considerations. Even if Superman does have a mother who's an innocent, that doesn't change anything about the putative threat his existence poses. It's contradictory to have Batman so relentlessly driven for most of the film and changing his mind so completely based on a single revelation.
Sorry, no. Moore was a member of the writing staff for DS9's last 5 seasons (remember, he was still on TNG for the first two years DS9 was on the air), but the only showrunners DS9 had were Michael Piller in the first two seasons and Ira Steven Behr for the rest. Moore was a supervising producer on DS9 for season 3-5, and was promoted to co-executive producer midway through season 5, a post he remained in for the rest of the series. So Moore wasn't even working on DS9 when they reintroduced the Mirror Universe; and since the rest of the MU episodes were Ira Behr's own babies, Behr certainly didn't have to answer to his subordinate Ron Moore.
As for forgetting who wrote the episodes... You're on the Internet. It's incredibly easy to look things up.
That's hardly comparable. Whatever "multiverse" language Geoff Johns might offer in interviews to appease the fans, the makers of the movies couldn't care less about the TV shows. And as much as we might wish it were not so, the movies are far bigger and more prominent than the TV shows. They'll be seen by more people, they make a ton more money, and they're enormously more important to the studio executives for that reason. The movies are what define these characters in the eyes of the majority of the public.
But there's also the pre-credit scene where Steve wakes up in modern-day Times Square and meets Fury for the first time. The post-credit scenes are of secondary importance; I'm talking about the narrative and conceptual flow of the movies themselves.
As a rule, if the installments in a series are told out of chronological order, there's a reason for it. So it's generally best to read or watch them in the order of their release. Well, with some exceptions, like the Star Wars Machete Order that I've been meaning to try. But I don't think this is an exception.
A few years back, when people were saying that about the announced plans for BvS, I often responded that it made sense for WB to want to do something distinct from Marvel's approach, something that wasn't just a direct copy of their formula. Now, though, I'm not sure if that was such a good idea after all.
Really, though, the reason Marvel's approach worked is because they let it evolve organically. They started out with just a couple of standalone movies and put in the most tentative hints that they might connect, and when that proved effective, they built on it. And now, every other studio is trying to force a shared-universe franchise into existence without knowing if the first film or two will be successful enough to justify it. Studio execs will never outgrow their mindless need to imitate success. They'll never learn that duplicating the form of a successful film won't matter, that its success came from the quality of the execution.
Again, and it's really not even worth saying anymore---you should probably see the movie before you take stands like this on this particular point.
It's crappier too.
Also, weekend actuals appear to be closer to 167. mil., which means Harry Potter's opening weekend record for WB still stands.
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I must admit it's kinda amusing how the person that "knows" absolutely everything that doesn't work about every moment of this film has not actually seen it...
BvS was just what I expected and wanted from a blockbuster cinema experience. Of course it wasn't perfect. What movie is? Overall, it has my seal of approval.
The story seemed a little disjointed, but, then again, in real life the "story" usually seems disjointed. So, really, no big deal.
I loved the depiction of Batman seeming slightly off his rocker. And for some reason I enjoyed the characterization of Superman a little more this time around. Maybe I've grown more accustomed to MoS. And then there was Wonder Woman.
Kor
The story seemed a little disjointed, but, then again, in real life the "story" usually seems disjointed. So, really, no big deal.
I loved the depiction of Batman seeming slightly off his rocker. And for some reason I enjoyed the characterization of Superman a little more this time around. Maybe I've grown more accustomed to MoS. And then there was Wonder Woman.
Kor