Spoilers Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Noname Given said:
??? It's not like that in Superman Returns, for example.
The Old Mixer said:
Everyone seemed to know everyone else's secret identities in this film. I had thought of Perry as an example of someone not in the loop, but who knows?
For example, at what point does Wayne find out that Superman is Clark Kent? Is it inferred from Lex's messages?
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Superman did leave enough of a trail in MoS for people who had the right info to put together the pieces. It's a comic book conceit that secret identities are airtight, when in the real world they'd be anything but. It's not hard to believe that a billionaire genius or the World's Greatest Detective could figure out who Superman really was.
FWIW, that does make one appreciate Snyder's version a little more. I had to edit the picture out of the quote, it's that bad.Since we had a new Batman cast in this movie, I think they should have gone with the aborted Nicholas Cage version of Superman.
Oddly enough, when Burton was supposed to make that film, there were rumours that he wanted Batman to appear at Superman's funeral. But he supposedly wanted him to be played by Keaton, even though at this stage onscreen Keaton had been replaced by Kilmer and then Clooney! For some reason that popped into my mind during BvJ's funeral scene.
Not really - the Studios make more per domestic ticket - so if it had beat the Avenger's U.S. opening numbers (also remember it's NOT adjusted for inflation and the Avengers number is for 2012); THEN WB would probably being really dancing. Make no mistake BvS had a VERY GOOD Domestic opening - but it does remain to be seen what 'legs' the film has with regard to Box Office over the next few weeks.
He probably could have, but his plan was to get Batman to know about the Kryptonite, and then have him steal it in order to fight Superman. At least, that's how I understood it.
One of my favourite scenes in Batman Beyond also confirms this.
Someone is trying to drive Bruce mad (I don't recall who) by making him think he's losing his mind by manufacturing voices in his head. At the end of the episode, Terry asks him how he knew he really wasn't going nuts:
Terry McGinnis: Tell me something - why were you so sure those voices weren't coming from you?
Bruce Wayne: Well, first, I know I'm not psychotic.
Terry McGinnis: I hope your other reason is more convincing.
Bruce Wayne: The voice kept calling me "Bruce." In my mind, that's not what I call myself.
Terry McGinnis: What do you call yourself? [Bruce just looks at him for a moment] Oh, yeah. I suppose you would. [Batman voice] But that's my name now.
Bruce Wayne: Tell that to my subconscious.
I wonder if Batman stealing the Kryptonite was filmed but then cut? As the film showed us, it's not a sequence that's absolutely needed, but as I was watching the movie I felt a little disappointed we were deprived what look like it could have been an impressive action sequence.
Season 1 episode 7, ''Shriek''.
My thought is: Since they had that whole sequence with Batman in the Batmobile trying to commandeer the truck with the Kryptonite (and not succeeding); they felt another scene showing the break-in and ultimate successful theft of the Krytonite unnecessary - what was important was Luthor seeing the Batarang Batman left for whatever reason - to let Luthor know he (the Batman) now had the Kryptonite.
That said, I do agree overall, the editing on this film could have been better; and the film could have been paced better too.
It will probably be restored in the R-rated cut..........where batman kills more people
Another fight near the beginning would have probably eased people. Maybe have Superman win the first round.
Just a five minute fight near the end wasn't enough for them.
Another fight near the beginning would have probably eased people. Maybe have Superman win the first round.
Just a five minute fight near the end wasn't enough for them.
^ I've said this before but I've never understood the appeal of fight scenes and brawling and whatnot or why it's a priority for so many people, not as part of the story but in and of itself. TREK_GOD did mention something about video game culture in the Supergirl thread and that made some sense though.
Dunno, if anything, it went on longer than believable. Batman only has a chance vs. Superman if Superman is pulling his punches, even with time to prepare, gadgets, all that crap. It's kind of a dumb premise for a fight, so for it to work, it would have to be over with quickly. The trap either works or fails, he can't go toe to toe with him.
Same issue with the fight at the end of this movie. Batman had no business there, and he'd have been bat paste. Same crap with Hawkeye and Black Widow in the Avengers: you don't have powers or any protection, shouldn't be fighting aliens or other godlike entities. You're a liability at best, instantly dead most likely.
Same issue with the fight at the end of this movie. Batman had no business there, and he'd have been bat paste. Same crap with Hawkeye and Black Widow in the Avengers: you don't have powers or any protection, shouldn't be fighting aliens or other godlike entities. You're a liability at best, instantly dead most likely.
If the film is anything like this, I will be thrilled.
[yt] [/yt]
Definitely makes me wish and want for what could have been.
The musical cues alone....! Going away from the classic Elfman Batman theme takes away so much of a potential Batman movie's power, IMO. I miss the Williams Superman theme, but considering this Superman is not a beacon of light, truth or hope, I guess its rather a good thing that theme is no longer used, as much as I loved its use in Superman Returns and the Smallville finale. In those places it added power.... in this movie... it would only draw attention to just how *not* Super, this guy actually is. The end of the movie didn't work for the same reasons....
Well I went to see it yesterday morning in 3d, the cinema probably had maybe a dozen other people. Anyway, like the others I found the first half to jump about a bit which was disconcerting. I gave it a B+, which may or not improve after I re watch it in 2d or in the summer when the director's cut comes out on Blu-Ray.
On the subject of Snyder 'having fun' with Jimmy Olsen, I'm reminded of the DS9 follow-up episodes to 'Mirror Mirror' where there was a running gag of a member of the Quark family dying in each. I dare say Ron Moore would have described it as 'just having fun'.
With regards to the world building (assuming the rumours are true about when the solo Batman film is going to take place) that when all these films are available for home entertainment in about four years time I imagine the viewing order will be:
Wonder Woman, Batman, Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Suicide Squad, Justice League Part 1 etc. Just as Captain America: The First Avenger is the first film to watch with Marvel phase 1. And when viewed in that order maybe we'll get a heightened appreciation of what Snyder & co are doing.
On the subject of Snyder 'having fun' with Jimmy Olsen, I'm reminded of the DS9 follow-up episodes to 'Mirror Mirror' where there was a running gag of a member of the Quark family dying in each. I dare say Ron Moore would have described it as 'just having fun'.
With regards to the world building (assuming the rumours are true about when the solo Batman film is going to take place) that when all these films are available for home entertainment in about four years time I imagine the viewing order will be:
Wonder Woman, Batman, Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Suicide Squad, Justice League Part 1 etc. Just as Captain America: The First Avenger is the first film to watch with Marvel phase 1. And when viewed in that order maybe we'll get a heightened appreciation of what Snyder & co are doing.
Comedic thought: thinking about those canisters of gaseous Kryptonite Batman employed in his fight with Superman, could we say he came equipped with Bat Repellent Kryptonian Spray on his utility belt?
So i just returned from the theater and gave it a C (without Affleck's Batman it would have been far worse).
Well, they tried.. maybe too hard. I didn't expect a Marvel style movie, that's apparently not DCU but i don't have a big problem with it as long as the movies are good but BvS ain't that great and has some major drawbacks.
For one i don't get the tone they were aiming at or even the story. So the movie deals basically with 3 storylines.. the world's need for Superman to be held accountable for his actions in the previous movie (and his long insistence that he doesn't care), Wayne's crusade to reign in Superman and Lex Luthor's quest of destroying Superman and using a selfcreated Doomsday to do it when Plan A fails (setting Batman and Superman on a collision course) - Luthor#s storyline was easily the absolute worst and my fears after i saw the trailers were confirmed.
Superman's storyline.. well, nice that they don't gloss over the damage from the first movie and that it became a central theme to his storyline. He came off a little like an ass and his earth mother Martha even supported him in his "Fuck them" attitude which took me a little by surprise but him being Superman he does the right thing and appears before the committee to answer, not his fault that he was duped by Luthor. Superman really came off as an asshole at first refusing to take responsibility or at least trying to present his side of the story which didn't really do his character justice so there's that.
Batman's storyline.. the saving grace of this movie. I was a little surprised at this very Dark Knight, a super jaded and worn down Superhero who has apparently sacrificed a little too much in his 20+ years of saving Gotham (loved the Robin costume that was apparently defaced by the Joker, implying he killed Robin). This one actually uses heavy weaponry and is not afraid to target the bad guys.. an existential break from the comicbook origins (i know.. the first issues had Batman kill and use weapons but that was during a time where Batman was not clearly defined). I'm not a comicbook purist most of the time and i#m not a DC man but i really liked this version because it felt real (as much as you can say real when it comes to Superheroes). We have a Superhero who's in his 40s, slowly moving past his prime and crime just won't let up.. he may have started out with a no kill policy but 20+ years may have driven him to step over the line and become even more terrifying to the criminals.
His motive to fight Superman also seemed very plausible.. seeing the Battle of Metropolis through his eyes really put it in perspective and it was not easy to disagree with his motives (or you could easily disagree.. interesting fodder for debate).
Lex Luthor's storyline.. ugh. This is where they turned an otherwise passable movie into a real chore and anchor that weighed everything down. I like Eisenberg when he plays roles that suit his chopped off, hyper acting style and where the movie is designed around him (loved Zombiland and the Facebook movie with him) but here he was just grating on my nerves every second he was on screen. He seemed more like a psychotic Sugaraddict than a criminal mastermind. Say what you will but i loved Kevin Spacey's take on Luthor and a dream casting would have been Bryan Cranston but Eisenberg was a massive failure in casting and just wrong for the role.
So the movie itself.. i really don't know how to describe it as anything else but dour and drab. As i said i didn't expect it to be flashy Marvel movie that contains the same ingredients.. a third big SFX action, a third character drama and a third humor but BvS was just downright depressing at times. The soundtrack didn't help either.. whenever there was a dramatic scene or reveal it kicked into high gear Wagner opera style (Ride of the Valkyries for example) that hit you with a sledgehammer and drowned everything out, It's akin to having a nice steak and then drowning it with sauce, you just don't do that.
It was a nice buildup to the fight we all wanted to see and the fight itself started off well. Of course Batman came well prepared and the first Kryptonite grenade really hit the mark and gave him a fighting chance that soon dissipated. The first real eye roller came when Superman attacks again and eats another Kryptonite grenade (he even sees Batman frantically load the grenate into the launcher).. take Evasive action? Nope! Incinerate it with Heatvision? Nope!
He just takes it on the chin again and off to Round 2. Sorry, but Superman is not stupid and while he may not have had too much constant and challenging battles so far in the movies this was beyond stupid.
However the biggest and dumbest thing was the Martha situation.. just because both of their moms share the same name all's good and we're suddenly best pals??? WTF? That didn't make any sense whatsoever.. Superman is still this barely unstoppable force that's not accountable to anything which is why Batman needed to stop him and just because Superman didn't raise himself in a cave and has a social life that suddenly makes him your friend? Jesus, that was some bad writing (i guess the writers didn't really have any good idea how to go from Batman hating Superman to becoming friends).
And then it got worse.. apparently the producers or WB wanted some big spectacle at the end to cement the new Superfriends relationship by having them fight an Oger from Lord of the Rings.. yeah well, "Doomsday". God that thing looked awful.. awful design, awful execution and wasting a truly powerful Superman enemy just for some eye candy SFX fight.
Truly Good things?
I really liked Gal Gadot here even with her limited screen time. Liked her since her Fast & Furious debut and damn did she look hot in BvS. Putting on a few pounds of muscle really suited her ( i just don't like the superthin model physique much) and she looked gorgeous in the dresses she got to wear but she really kicked ass as Wonder Woman (what i could make out with all the lights, explosions and electical discharges). Might even go see her solo movie.
Speaking of solo movies.. nice setups for the other characters, didn't expect that so soon but then again BvS is basically a setup movie for Justice League. First moving picture of Jason Momoa as Aquaman (and damn does he look awesome), Flash was kinda meh (anothe review said that the guy in the light vortex in Batman's dream was Flash.. didn't make the connection while i saw the movie) but the creation of Cyborg looked cool and also a little bit horrific.
So.. would i have spent the money to see it if i knew what i know now? Really don't know.. the R rated version will come out in a few months ( i guess later summer, early fall) but i honestly don't think it will elevate the movie much. Just a bit more graphic fights ( i guess mostly Batman) doesn't do much to improve the picture, for that there should be a total rewrite.
Well, it certainly will be a financial success and it certainly set up the whole thing (i'm sure i missed a ton of stuff that DC experts have spotted) so the weight is now on the solo movies to do it better until in a few years Justice League hits and they get to fight Darkseid (most likely).
Well, they tried.. maybe too hard. I didn't expect a Marvel style movie, that's apparently not DCU but i don't have a big problem with it as long as the movies are good but BvS ain't that great and has some major drawbacks.
For one i don't get the tone they were aiming at or even the story. So the movie deals basically with 3 storylines.. the world's need for Superman to be held accountable for his actions in the previous movie (and his long insistence that he doesn't care), Wayne's crusade to reign in Superman and Lex Luthor's quest of destroying Superman and using a selfcreated Doomsday to do it when Plan A fails (setting Batman and Superman on a collision course) - Luthor#s storyline was easily the absolute worst and my fears after i saw the trailers were confirmed.
Superman's storyline.. well, nice that they don't gloss over the damage from the first movie and that it became a central theme to his storyline. He came off a little like an ass and his earth mother Martha even supported him in his "Fuck them" attitude which took me a little by surprise but him being Superman he does the right thing and appears before the committee to answer, not his fault that he was duped by Luthor. Superman really came off as an asshole at first refusing to take responsibility or at least trying to present his side of the story which didn't really do his character justice so there's that.
Batman's storyline.. the saving grace of this movie. I was a little surprised at this very Dark Knight, a super jaded and worn down Superhero who has apparently sacrificed a little too much in his 20+ years of saving Gotham (loved the Robin costume that was apparently defaced by the Joker, implying he killed Robin). This one actually uses heavy weaponry and is not afraid to target the bad guys.. an existential break from the comicbook origins (i know.. the first issues had Batman kill and use weapons but that was during a time where Batman was not clearly defined). I'm not a comicbook purist most of the time and i#m not a DC man but i really liked this version because it felt real (as much as you can say real when it comes to Superheroes). We have a Superhero who's in his 40s, slowly moving past his prime and crime just won't let up.. he may have started out with a no kill policy but 20+ years may have driven him to step over the line and become even more terrifying to the criminals.
His motive to fight Superman also seemed very plausible.. seeing the Battle of Metropolis through his eyes really put it in perspective and it was not easy to disagree with his motives (or you could easily disagree.. interesting fodder for debate).
Lex Luthor's storyline.. ugh. This is where they turned an otherwise passable movie into a real chore and anchor that weighed everything down. I like Eisenberg when he plays roles that suit his chopped off, hyper acting style and where the movie is designed around him (loved Zombiland and the Facebook movie with him) but here he was just grating on my nerves every second he was on screen. He seemed more like a psychotic Sugaraddict than a criminal mastermind. Say what you will but i loved Kevin Spacey's take on Luthor and a dream casting would have been Bryan Cranston but Eisenberg was a massive failure in casting and just wrong for the role.
So the movie itself.. i really don't know how to describe it as anything else but dour and drab. As i said i didn't expect it to be flashy Marvel movie that contains the same ingredients.. a third big SFX action, a third character drama and a third humor but BvS was just downright depressing at times. The soundtrack didn't help either.. whenever there was a dramatic scene or reveal it kicked into high gear Wagner opera style (Ride of the Valkyries for example) that hit you with a sledgehammer and drowned everything out, It's akin to having a nice steak and then drowning it with sauce, you just don't do that.
It was a nice buildup to the fight we all wanted to see and the fight itself started off well. Of course Batman came well prepared and the first Kryptonite grenade really hit the mark and gave him a fighting chance that soon dissipated. The first real eye roller came when Superman attacks again and eats another Kryptonite grenade (he even sees Batman frantically load the grenate into the launcher).. take Evasive action? Nope! Incinerate it with Heatvision? Nope!
He just takes it on the chin again and off to Round 2. Sorry, but Superman is not stupid and while he may not have had too much constant and challenging battles so far in the movies this was beyond stupid.
However the biggest and dumbest thing was the Martha situation.. just because both of their moms share the same name all's good and we're suddenly best pals??? WTF? That didn't make any sense whatsoever.. Superman is still this barely unstoppable force that's not accountable to anything which is why Batman needed to stop him and just because Superman didn't raise himself in a cave and has a social life that suddenly makes him your friend? Jesus, that was some bad writing (i guess the writers didn't really have any good idea how to go from Batman hating Superman to becoming friends).
And then it got worse.. apparently the producers or WB wanted some big spectacle at the end to cement the new Superfriends relationship by having them fight an Oger from Lord of the Rings.. yeah well, "Doomsday". God that thing looked awful.. awful design, awful execution and wasting a truly powerful Superman enemy just for some eye candy SFX fight.
Truly Good things?
I really liked Gal Gadot here even with her limited screen time. Liked her since her Fast & Furious debut and damn did she look hot in BvS. Putting on a few pounds of muscle really suited her ( i just don't like the superthin model physique much) and she looked gorgeous in the dresses she got to wear but she really kicked ass as Wonder Woman (what i could make out with all the lights, explosions and electical discharges). Might even go see her solo movie.
Speaking of solo movies.. nice setups for the other characters, didn't expect that so soon but then again BvS is basically a setup movie for Justice League. First moving picture of Jason Momoa as Aquaman (and damn does he look awesome), Flash was kinda meh (anothe review said that the guy in the light vortex in Batman's dream was Flash.. didn't make the connection while i saw the movie) but the creation of Cyborg looked cool and also a little bit horrific.
So.. would i have spent the money to see it if i knew what i know now? Really don't know.. the R rated version will come out in a few months ( i guess later summer, early fall) but i honestly don't think it will elevate the movie much. Just a bit more graphic fights ( i guess mostly Batman) doesn't do much to improve the picture, for that there should be a total rewrite.
Well, it certainly will be a financial success and it certainly set up the whole thing (i'm sure i missed a ton of stuff that DC experts have spotted) so the weight is now on the solo movies to do it better until in a few years Justice League hits and they get to fight Darkseid (most likely).