• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Star Trek 2017 will not be set in the JJ-Verse

Deadpool: "true" to soure material, "pandering" to fans. Fans were excited. Told their non-geek friends about it. Those got interested too. Big opening weekend. Success.
You're sort of defeating your own argument about JJtrek here, as that paragraph perfectly describes those movies. They couldn't be more full of fan references and source material nods, and that was your main issue with them before. And they were a success, by any measure. Trek which takes the franchise backwards from that point, back to the days of technobabble anomalies and Neelix's chefs hat, would be a serious misstep.
 
You're sorry of defeating your own argument about JJtrek here, as that paragraph perfectly describes those movies. They couldn't be more full of fan references and source material nods, and that was your main issue with them before. And they were a success, by any measure. Trek which takes the franchise backwards from that point, back to the days of technobabble anomalies and Neelix's chefs hat, would be a serious misstep.

There's quite a big difference between "true to the source material" and "contains waaay to many references to the source material".

I don't care if they shove me a Tribble in the face as a means to "respect" the original. I want to see the spirit of Trek in effect! Which can be quite hard, because everyone likes Trek for different reasons.

I would say JJTrek got quite a lot right, like the adventures feel, and character dynamics. But the world building, the plots, and everything regarding ethics or science was completely off the rails, and it suffered for adhering too much to the general blockbuster formula without having it's own, distinctive voice.
 
Last edited:
I think it is tough to say whether or not people would identify Abrams Trek if as asked about "Star Trek" as compared to previous Trek works. For starters, as has been pointed out, prior Trek works include 10 films and 700+ episodes. It's simply not a fair comparison, though I'm sure comparisons will be made.

It's kind of like a question I saw, either here or another forum, about whether or not Abrams Trek would inspire people to become astronauts or engineers like TOS or TNG had. To me, that's not something that can be answered 5 years after the fact of a film's release. And, even if it could be answered, that gives little indication of success or failure, as people can be inspired by films for a variety of reasons, and not just whether or not it inspired them to move in to a specific field.

I can't speak for anyone else, so I'll speak for me. I like most generic action blockbuster films and think they are fun and entertaining. But, Abrams Trek, as much as it gets compared to a blockbuster style, speaks to me on a different level than just entertainment. I find it incredibly fascinating to unpack as a psychological analysis of the characters and their journey. Sure there could have been other things done, but I think they are distinct enough in terms of their "voice" to be discussed in the pantheon of Trek.
 
I think it is tough to say whether or not people would identify Abrams Trek if as asked about "Star Trek" as compared to previous Trek works. For starters, as has been pointed out, prior Trek works include 10 films and 700+ episodes. It's simply not a fair comparison, though I'm sure comparisons will be made.

It's kind of like a question I saw, either here or another forum, about whether or not Abrams Trek would inspire people to become astronauts or engineers like TOS or TNG had. To me, that's not something that can be answered 5 years after the fact of a film's release. And, even if it could be answered, that gives little indication of success or failure, as people can be inspired by films for a variety of reasons, and not just whether or not it inspired them to move in to a specific field.

...

I think it can be compared, and it should. If you would ask people about "Batman", their views would be heavily influenced by Christopher Nolans reboot. Now, after Batman v. Superman that may change. But during their run in the cinema they were pretty much the definitive representation of the IP. As is currently for example the Michael Bay-version of the Transformers.

JJ's Trek movies aren't bad movies. I don't want to badmouth them, and I really don't want to diminish your enjoment of them. But I don't think they ever achieved being the current "definite" representation of Star Trek, even at the height of their popularity. They always were more of a 'pop-cultural representation', a new variant of it. As was for example the 'Lost in Space'-movie (although that comparison is unfair, because 'Lost in Space' was a baaad movie).

It's just the 60's version of Kirk and Spock, Shatner and Nimoy, are still much more ingrained in pop-culture than the Pine/Quinto-versions, and I don't think the JJ-versions will have that much staying power once their movie run is finished. Again, that's not because they're bad. But because they are just one of many incarnations of the property. Instead of the 'ultimate' incarnation, that TOS and TNG were at their time.

I would compare the JJ-Trek movies to DS9: a great run, definetely worth a viewing. But it was never the "definitve" representation of Trek, weither the causes lied in unpopular creative choices, fan backlash, or simply outside influence like release times and creative competition.
 
I would compare the JJ-Trek movies to DS9: a great run, definetely worth a viewing. But it was never the "definitve" representation of Trek, weither the causes lied in unpopular creative choices, fan backlash, or simply outside influence like release times and creative competition.

I agree with much of what you said except for DS9 is far more representative of Star Trek despite the story arcs and darker themes. It has the human story. I do feel that JJ-Trek is representative of the state of pop culture and the 2009 film despite any minor gripes I have with it was actually a triumph for the franchise. Unfortunately they took a huge misstep with The Wrath of Khan: The Next Generation aka Into Darkness. And as others have mentioned, people are not running out to buy into merchandise or dress up as characters from the new films. People are still buying into the old, not the new.

I am thankful however that the television series has a chance to go back to what I feel most fans are hoping for and that is a return to the prime universe. That does not mean as others have argued that it has to go back to technobabble or recurring tropes that we have seen before in TNG, DS9 and VOY. It does mean that the type of story telling those shows and the original series did at their best can return. The heart and feel of Star Trek can return and the excitement from TOS or the new films can be included as well.

Hopefully with new and old people at the helm and a door open for some amazing cameos, because let's be honest, who doesn't at some point want to see Patrick Stewart as Picard again even if he is tending his vineyards or an old admiral or ambassador, this new show can be a continuation of the amazing universe that Kirk, Picard and company have inhabited.
 
who doesn't at some point want to see Patrick Stewart as Picard again even if he is tending his vineyards or an old admiral or ambassador,
Me. I'd be very happy never to see an established character on the new series. Especially not as a Skype Admiral like Janeway in NEM.
 
Me. I'd be very happy never to see an established character on the new series. Especially not as a Skype Admiral like Janeway in NEM.
This is heresy! There cannot be too much of Sir Patrick Stewart. In fact, I hope that in the new series all roles are played by Sir Patrick!
 
Me. I'd be very happy never to see an established character on the new series. Especially not as a Skype Admiral like Janeway in NEM.
Kate Mulgrew was underused for Nemesis but nice to see her in a cameo none the less. I would want to take advantage of the better actors or iconic characters from the previous series the way they did with Leonard Nimoy or James Doohan, it was peppered in sparingly and not overused. It was nice to have a since of continuity.
 
Now a Unification type appearance I could get on board with. It made sense, it was a story in its own right and the character wasn't just there for continuity porn. That sort of thing - fine. Even a caution to the winds fanwank episode like Trials and Tribbleations has its place because it knows exactly what it is and plays up to it. But something like Relics where a TOS character is thrown in as a B plot in a story which has nothing to do with the character other than nostalgia? No thanks.
 
Agreed. Something that is worthy of paying the actor's salary to be there. Leonard Nimoy's somewhat famous refusal of doing Generations as he put it was due to the fact that you could have put those words into any of the character's mouths and it would have made no difference. There was NO Spock story, unlike his turn in Unification where he and Sarek both had a reason to be there and it was a great episode and a great moment in Trek history as a result.
 
This is where I respectfully have to disagree. The JJ moves were (are?) quite successfull, but they are in no way the big game changer they were intended to be. If you ask any person on the street (or, hell, watch "Big Bang Theory") and ask people what 'Star Trek' means, the answer will be "William Shatner", "Leonard Nimoy", "Patrick Steward" and "nerdy techno talk" that you will hear.

If you would have asked those people in 2009 that might have been different. But since then there have mostly been large gaps of no exposure to JJ Trek. Prime-Trek has moved to streaming services and proved overall quite successfull. And the past few years have had such a big dump of generic blockbusters that JJTrek simply didn't leave such a big mark in people's mind as 50 years and 800+ hours of previous exposure did.
Hasn't this happened to all Star Trek properties? JJ trek is on cable networks and the ratings are good enough it keeps coming back. I talked to my peers (21 - 25) and they won't bother to give Trek a chance if it's not by JJ Abrams. Alex Kurtsman helps a newer generation to give it a chance. Good or bad, I'm not sure going back to the old well will give us the response when Enterprise aired or when TNG aired. IDK.
 
I talked to my peers (21 - 25) and they won't bother to give Trek a chance if it's not by JJ Abrams.

There is also a new guard of Trek fans who don't think ST:B will be any good because Abrams isn't directly involved. There certainly is a diversity of opinions in our fandom. :lol:

Kor
 
Last edited:
It won't matter because the series will determined through subscriptions than ratings; which are not looking good for determining a show these days. There's such a large variety of channels now. Doesn't matter, fans will hail it successful as soon as the images pop up online. CBS will sell the goods I believe.
 
I think it can be compared, and it should. If you would ask people about "Batman", their views would be heavily influenced by Christopher Nolans reboot. Now, after Batman v. Superman that may change. But during their run in the cinema they were pretty much the definitive representation of the IP. As is currently for example the Michael Bay-version of the Transformers.

JJ's Trek movies aren't bad movies. I don't want to badmouth them, and I really don't want to diminish your enjoment of them. But I don't think they ever achieved being the current "definite" representation of Star Trek, even at the height of their popularity. They always were more of a 'pop-cultural representation', a new variant of it. As was for example the 'Lost in Space'-movie (although that comparison is unfair, because 'Lost in Space' was a baaad movie).

It's just the 60's version of Kirk and Spock, Shatner and Nimoy, are still much more ingrained in pop-culture than the Pine/Quinto-versions, and I don't think the JJ-versions will have that much staying power once their movie run is finished. Again, that's not because they're bad. But because they are just one of many incarnations of the property. Instead of the 'ultimate' incarnation, that TOS and TNG were at their time.

I would compare the JJ-Trek movies to DS9: a great run, definetely worth a viewing. But it was never the "definitve" representation of Trek, weither the causes lied in unpopular creative choices, fan backlash, or simply outside influence like release times and creative competition.
This is where you and I will disagree then, which is fine. I personally am not looking for the "definitive" or "ultimate" iteration of characters or universe, or story. I am looking a story about characters that engages me, be it TOS, TNG Abrams or 2017. For me, the idea that I should take Abrams Trek and demand that it perform as well as TOS Trek or TNG Trek, when the later two had years to grow, and we only have two films thus far for Abrams Trek.

In that way, I agree that it is a new variant of it, and that enjoyment and meaning can be had in equal parts as TOS. At least, it is for me, and I certainly see similar value ascribed among other fans. What that means in the long term is anyone's guess, but I personally would give it value as a generational variant, and perhaps even more so, as a new generation attempts to make a franchise its own.

I agree with much of what you said except for DS9 is far more representative of Star Trek despite the story arcs and darker themes. It has the human story. I do feel that JJ-Trek is representative of the state of pop culture and the 2009 film despite any minor gripes I have with it was actually a triumph for the franchise. Unfortunately they took a huge misstep with The Wrath of Khan: The Next Generation aka Into Darkness. And as others have mentioned, people are not running out to buy into merchandise or dress up as characters from the new films. People are still buying into the old, not the new.
First of all, the merchandising emphasis by CBS has always been what they know is safe money. They have had decades of Prime Continuity and will continue to cash in on that for years to come (how many variations do I need of the TOS phaser?).

Secondly, and in my opinion more importantly, there are numerous factors and reasons why people don't buy specific merchandise, not just interest in the franchise. Those factors should be considered as part of the equation, including the recession in full swing, and the limited merchandising, especially with STID.

I saw plenty of costuming, props, etc, for Abrams and it certainly didn't stay on the shelves for long. Again, limited data, anecdotal at best, but there is always more to the story that just "People don't like it."
 
I don't think people failed to buy Star Trek Into Darkness merchandise due to the recession. I mean it is obvious what fans like and what they don't. I went to the Star Trek Ultimate Voyage concert the other night and out of all the people dressed up in uniform younger and older you've got mostly TNG uniforms, then a Seven of Nine and some TOS movie era and show era not JJ-TREK uniforms. No Klingons with nose rings or Romulans with tattoos. Go to a convention, look at popular television like The Big Bang Theory, who did they dress up as TNG characters, which Spock does Sheldon prefer, etc. The 2009 movie made an impact for sure on pop culture but in terms of Trek fans it is still TOS through TNG Era that fans are attracted to and are watching in endless reruns on Netflix. Now if ST: Beyond turns things back around it could be different in years to come.
 
In years to come. I just think it's too soon to say one way or the other, and there are too many factors at play. Also, as a side note, merchandising for STID was awful.

I have TNG and TOS props and uniforms. I don't have Abrams. Why? I don't have the money. Period.
 
I actually have a 09 phaser and uniform shirt and you are right it is too soon to judge after only two films. That is like Judging TNG after only two seasons. Who knows, for the here and now the TOS through TNG eras still reign supreme.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top