Was Kes a Good Character?

[STEPhon IT]

The problem was she was from the point of creation a butterfly character. At the start of the day her main defining feature was her limited lifespan. This is something that would have worked well for a single episode species, but I'm sure was a major drawback to the writers for an ongoing character. Whenever you sit down to write a character, pull up their unique features and ask what can we do with them this week, and always must skip over the first obvious answer of "die" that's not a character the writers are going to love.

That means they didn't have the right mind set, her life span doesn't have to be a focal point. No different The Doctor remaining contained inside Sick bay. Simply use their imaginations to go beyond that.

Quirky aliens that seemed a good idea at the time seemed to be a major issue from TNG onwards. Heck Rodenberry and crew initially had no idea what to do with Worf beyond "wouldn't it be cool to put a Klingon on the bridge?" It was fan fascination with the character that led to him being main cast.

1 of the worst ideas ever developed in Star Trek, he was a 1 note character, and I'm still not certain what his designation was on DS9.

I suspect the writers found the Trill aspects of Dax on DS9 to be awkward and difficult to easily utilize. Thankfully Terry Farrell's natural charms and chemistry as a pleasant and attractive Spock role largely papered over the need for messing with the whole backstory too much. They could still find plenty for her to do every week.

To me, Dax was more like the McCoy role than Spock; she was the bestfriend/buddy/confidant of Sisko. The person who could stand up and tell him whatever she felt like because he needed that voice.

Kes was probably the worst of these as they never did really answer that question of "what to do with her week to week". Nor was she alone in that regard for Voyager. Chakotay (sp?) was another great example of "ok we've got one, now what do we do with it?"

They didn't have the right mind set for the character. Too interested in making the first female captain infallible to worry about a fantastic element like Kes within the crew.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The real mistake that Rick Berman, et al, made with Kes was that they had two brand new species of aliens that STAR TREK's never seen before AND ... pairs them both together, immediately. The Beauty & The Beast angle would've been more charming if Neelix wasn't such a bell's end ... especially when other Men took notice of his "sweetie." Kes' short lifespan could've always been dealt with in even so much as a line or two, if they felt, eventually, that she should age like a normal Human female. Which they should've done. And I'm confident that pairing up the middle-aged "truckdriver" with a naïve, small town girl is a literate reference to something ... I just don't know what it is. Characters from a play? An obscure short story? Whatever it is, it isn't whimsy, this curiously odd pairing. I'm afraid I'm not read enough to be able to identify it. And whilst it may have worked beautifully in the source material, it backfires here, miserably.

 

[fireproof78]

I'll part with you there Lynx. Voyager is so different than TNG. Huge difference between the two.

I would be curious to hear where you see the most disparity. As much as I enjoy VOY at times, it feels very safe and TNG lite most of the times. For me, the characters lack a certain chemistry that came about in TNG over time.

Kes could have been a breakout character, and had one of the more interesting arcs of any character in the series (Seven being a close second, though we got to see more facets of her versus Kes). I do find her to be an interesting one, but paring her immediately with Neelix and not allowing the audience to get to know her outside of that relationship was a bit limiting, IMHO. I think we really saw some interesting growth once she was single.

There was a lot more potential in Kes, and the Ocampans as a general idea. They just never went any where with it.

 

[Drone]

The real mistake that Rick Berman, et al, made with Kes was that they had two brand new species of aliens that STAR TREK's never seen before AND ... pairs them both together, immediately. The Beauty & The Beast angle would've been more charming if Neelix wasn't such a bell's end ... especially when other Men took notice of his "sweetie." Kes' short lifespan could've always been dealt with in even so much as a line or two, if they felt, eventually, that she should age like a normal Human female. Which they should've done. And I'm confident that pairing up the middle-aged "truckdriver" with a naïve, small town girl is a literate reference to something ... I just don't know what it is. Characters from a play? An obscure short story? Whatever it is, it isn't whimsy, this curiously odd pairing. I'm afraid I'm not read enough to be able to identify it. And whilst it may have worked beautifully in the source material, it backfires here, miserably.

As I think you're aware, I do esteem the literacy and variety of your contributions greatly.. I have to disagree with you here about their's being an obvious mismatch,. As I said on the last page or so, they initially satisfied needs that were as pressing and immediate in one as in the other. The point you make about other males finding interest in her isn't really substantiated other than by Paris, and their conflict was resolved most amicably in Parturition. No others that I'm aware of, Zahir not counting as his appearance came long after the brakeup. By the way, it's sweeting, not sweetie, which I found kind of neat. I certainly agree that it was more than viable to have her age, though as we saw, she could have done so in her own species' time. She would have been 8 at voyage's end, and if memory serves from Before & After, she may have possibly looked as she did at the time of Andrew's birth at that stage, but not older than middle age at most.

I did fail to laud you on your graphic depiction of Kesfans and the text, the conclusion of which is truly spot on..

 

[2takesfrakes]

I appreciate that you esteem the literacy and variety of my contributions, Drone ... though, I suspect you are in the minority, on that front.

>>SNORT!!!<<

Despite my father being an Episcopalian, me mum was adamant that I be raised in her Roman Catholic faith, which included my receiving a Catholic school education. So, thank her for my level of literacy. Variety is also a necessary ingredient of literacy ... and the very spice of Life!

Which is why it's extremely difficult for me to understand, or support, the notion that Kes was somehow an inferior character, because she wasn't some butch, man-hating feminazi, but rather a sweet and loving young woman who treated people fairly and with kindness. I think she's just wonderful and I'm well-pleased that this thread contains much love for Kes, as well as Jennifer Lien, herself. And some good points have been raised, as well.

Your points are well-taken, regarding my overstating aspects about Kes, such as Men actively chatting her up, for example. But Neelix' jealousy was still distasteful - as were his insecurities, in general. And you're right that Neelix and Kes did compliment each other in certain areas. Where one was less, the other was more and, to start with, at least, they did seem to be in a developing relationship, however unorthodox it may have been. Finally, allow me to thank you for informing me regarding the actual pronunciation of Neelix' pet name for Kes, it just never caught my ear ... "sweeting ..."

 

[JayTheTrekkie]

I voted potential.

She was an alright character, not a fan of her. The only Kes episode I liked the best was Before and After.

 

[Lynx]

As for the Kes-Neelix relationship, I did find it reasonable to begin with and I also find it clear that it was going to break up.

Just look at the scenario: Neelix discovers Kes when he is trading with the Kazon-Ogla and falls in love with her. With the help of the Voyager crew, he saves her from the Kazon-Ogla and she's very grateful for that.

Kes is basically a teenager at that point. She see Neelix as some sort of hero and falls in love with him.

Then they both decide to stay on Voyager. Neelix wants to stay, probably because he knows that therewould be a problem for him and Kes to escape the different Kazon sects in Neelix's tiny ship and he also think that he can become an important person on the ship. Kes, on the other hand wats to explore space and don't want to go back to the drab Ocampa society.

From there, they start to drift apart.

Kes soon finds her life on Voyager. During the first months, she discovers the wonders on the ship, get a lot of friends and then find her call in working with The Doctor, thus learning and exploring. She still loves Neelix but as the months pass, she begin to see his darker sides.

Neelix, on the other hand soon realizes that his role on the ship is limited. His knowledge of the near space is limited and beyond the Nekrit Expanse, he knows nothing at all about what is waiting. His skills as cook is limited too and he realizes that the different crewmembers don't take him too seriously. Neelix also has a psychological problem due to the tragic events from the past when he lost his family. All that makes him edgy. He tries to come up with different roles for himself as cook, Morale Officer, journalist and all he can come up with in order to impress the Captain and the crew. He also feels limited when it comes to Kes. He's terrified by the thought that Kes would find someone more handsome and skilled than him (like Paris) which makes him over-protective and jealous.

All that leads to the inevitable, a break-up In fact, in his ambition to keep Kes, he actually scares her away.

So far, the whole scenario is actually very realistic. The only thing that those in charge should have done was to end the relationship sooner than they did, most likely some time after the events in "Parturition". The break-up should also have been handled better than it was, maybe taking place during two-three episodes in season 2 as a background story to the ongoing events.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Lynx, your summary is sound .... I must say. I'm damned if I can find anything wrong with it.

 

[Archimago]

I myself was never a big fan of Kes, I never really felt I made a connection with her. That certainly does not mean she wasn't a good actor. And I believe the reason I never got that connection was her underplayed story and development.

I agree with the post above about Neelix and Kes. Except for your evaluation of Neelix's role aboard the ship. He does come up with these roles and he is good at them. His role as the moral officer onboard is clear throughout the episodes and I don't think he was ever assigned this role to impress anyone he was just actually good at it. His edgy overprotective ways did annoy me though.

This is just my opinion yours is absolutely valid as well

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Kes was lovely, I thought. Nice, warm with a certain naivety around her which was occasionally counterbalanced by unexpected determination. Whenever I come to Scorpion - no doubt my favourite episode in anything science fiction - I'm always a bit disappointed that she is soon to go. (At the same time I'm always looking forward to Seven - so it's kind of a bittersweet feeling.)
The only thing I don't like is FURY - that episode makes the impression that even if one used to like Kes during her time, it's time to start hating her. Who has such ideas? It was everything Kes wasn't.
Just look at her:

 

[2takesfrakes]

.... Agreed, Thomas! Jennifer was all of that and more - everything the part required, in fact ... a beautiful, elfish pixie who could project sweetness and a sense of wonder. Like yourself, I adore Kes ... and have the highest hopes for Jennifer's future.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Jennifer Lien brought such sincerity to Kes that I loved the character, definitely in my top three of the series (Tuvok and Torres being in the other spots). She had so much potential and growth ahead of her. I think that's part of the reason my feelings towards Voyager soured from season four onwards.

 

[stardream]

I liked Kes but the thing is I didn't really miss her after she left. I think that might be down to her the gradual reduction of her screen time.

I remember back when the character of Radar left M*A*S*H*. He was such an integral part of the cast that when he finally did leave I thought I would really miss him but the thing is, I didn't. Watching the series straight through on Netflix I realized that his screen time gradually diminished to the point where several episodes would pass when we did not see him at all. The audience was 'weaned' off of him.

I would not have minded if Kes stayed but at the same time her departure didn't affect me all that much.

 

[Drone]

Kes was lovely, I thought. Nice, warm with a certain naivety around her which was occasionally counterbalanced by unexpected determination. Whenever I come to Scorpion - no doubt my favourite episode in anything science fiction - I'm always a bit disappointed that she is soon to go. (At the same time I'm always looking forward to Seven - so it's kind of a bittersweet feeling.)
The only thing I don't like is FURY - that episode makes the impression that even if one used to like Kes during her time, it's time to start hating her. Who has such ideas? It was everything Kes wasn't.
Just look at her:

Tomi, you've done quite the job in capturing Kes during all the phases of her life aboard Voyager, and while the images are numerous, I don't perceive the space as feeling crowded at all. What you also impressively were mindful of, was to capture a panoply of expressions that correspond to an effective description of many of the aspects of her character that made her so special. I want to especially compliment you on your choice in stylizing her name. It is not only distinctive, but in some hard to explain fashion, speaks to me at least, of a sense of the loving- kindness that was such an integral part of her character. As usual, thoughtfully and very tellingly realized. Congratulations!!!!!

.... Agreed, Thomas! Jennifer was all of that and more - everything the part required, in fact ... a beautiful, elfish pixie who could project sweetness and a sense of wonder. Like yourself, I adore Kes ... and have the highest hopes for Jennifer's future.

While these comments from a You Tube video refer to humans, they are specifically directed at the character of Kes, the subject of the piece. I think that at a fundamental level, perhaps much more than others that more straightforwardly express admiration for her, these touch the essence of the extraordinary and preternatural qualities that Kes really embodied.

"You Are the Universe Expressing Itself as a Human being For a While..."

Father Teilhard de Chardin said "You are not a human being having a spiritual experience, you are a spiritual being having a human experience."

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Tomi, you've done quite the job in capturing Kes during all the phases of her life aboard Voyager, and while the images are numerous, I don't perceive the space as feeling crowded at all. What you also impressively were mindful of, was to capture a panoply of expressions that correspond to an effective description of many of the aspects of her character that made her so special. I want to especially compliment you on your choice in stylizing her name. It is not only distinctive, but in some hard to explain fashion, speaks to me at least, of a sense of the loving- kindness that was such an integral part of her character. As usual, thoughtfully and very tellingly realized. Congratulations!!!!!

Thanks, M.
I mean Drone .
There will be several more pictures with her (as well as with everyone else) on my thread. Just keep on following it !
It's interesting that you say those pictures come from different phases of Kes's life. When I was making that picture, this was not an important consideration - but now that I think about it, ultimately this is what happened. When making that wallpaper I was thinking about making it with a variety of colours so I chose images with her in which she was wearing costumes in different colours. Incidentally, it seems that they come from different phases of her life.
BTW, there's a reason she is shown in that pic with long hair only once: I prefer her with short hair ...

 

[Lynx]

Thanks, M.
I mean Drone .
There will be several more pictures with her (as well as with everyone else) on my thread. Just keep on following it !
It's interesting that you say those pictures come from different phases of Kes's life. When I was making that picture, this was not an important consideration - but now that I think about it, ultimately this is what happened. When making that wallpaper I was thinking about making it with a variety of colours so I chose images with her in which she was wearing costumes in different colours. Incidentally, it seems that they come from different phases of her life.
BTW, there's a reason she is shown in that pic with long hair only once: I prefer her with short hair ...

I like her better with short hair too.
It was sort of a trademark for her. She lloked good in long hair to but lost some of her personality and became just another blond Star Trek character.

 

[Lynx]

Kes was lovely, I thought. Nice, warm with a certain naivety around her which was occasionally counterbalanced by unexpected determination. Whenever I come to Scorpion - no doubt my favourite episode in anything science fiction - I'm always a bit disappointed that she is soon to go. (At the same time I'm always looking forward to Seven - so it's kind of a bittersweet feeling.)
The only thing I don't like is FURY - that episode makes the impression that even if one used to like Kes during her time, it's time to start hating her. Who has such ideas? It was everything Kes wasn't.
Just look at her:

Well, only mean-spirited people like Braga, Fuller and M. Taylor could come up with such a morbid thought. That's one reason why I throw the hate back at them instead!
And give some of it to Berman and J.Taylor too!

As for Kes as a character, well she is nice , beautiful and friendly. But also strong-willed, determined, curious and smart.
As such she is both a contrast to more typical female action characters, such as Janeway, Torres and Seven.
She has a way of attacking problems from another angle, thus getting things the way she wants.

With her will to learn and explore, she personifies the spirit of Star Trek. A spirit that Voyager lost when she was kicked out.

 

[Lynx]

I myself was never a big fan of Kes, I never really felt I made a connection with her. That certainly does not mean she wasn't a good actor. And I believe the reason I never got that connection was her underplayed story and development.

I agree with the post above about Neelix and Kes. Except for your evaluation of Neelix's role aboard the ship. He does come up with these roles and he is good at them. His role as the moral officer onboard is clear throughout the episodes and I don't think he was ever assigned this role to impress anyone he was just actually good at it. His edgy overprotective ways did annoy me though.

This is just my opinion yours is absolutely valid as well

I'm not sure if Neelix was that good in his roles. Hiss role as cook was a bit..... debated by his crewmates, his role as Moral officer was so-so and his role as journalist was a bit hysterical.

But I will give you some points on this because whatever Neelix did, he had good intentions.

I must also state that Neelix actually was a rather normal character, maybe one of the most normal that Star Trek ever came up with.

Why? Because look at his background! His whole life was shattered when his family was killed, according to the book "Pathways" he actually had drug problems for a while until Wixiban saved him and cured him from that. But he was probably tortured by those memories from what happened to his family even later on. And my point is that every normal person could become like him because of such a tragedy.

What's admirable with Neelix is that his way to cope with that was to make everybody around him feel happy. He did his best to amuse, entertain and create a good feeling among his crewmates. When someone was in need, Neelix was there to back up that person. Sometimes he over-did such things and became a bit annoying (especially to Tuvok) but he did have good intentions.

He did however have some dark sides too, his jealousy and over-protection of Kes which actually made them drift apart. But I guess that may have been another effect of the tragic events in his past too.

 

[Archimago]

Well, only mean-spirited people like Braga, Fuller and M. Taylor could come up with such a morbid thought. That's one reason why I throw the hate back at them instead!
And give some of it to Berman and J.Taylor too!

As for Kes as a character, well she is nice , beautiful and friendly. But also strong-willed, determined, curious and smart.
As such she is both a contrast to more typical female action characters, such as Janeway, Torres and Seven.
She has a way of attacking problems from another angle, thus getting things the way she wants.

With her will to learn and explore, she personifies the spirit of Star Trek. A spirit that Voyager lost when she was kicked out.

But don't Janeway and seven both want to explore and learn? One for perfection one for her own scientific curiosity. I do agree that Kes was unique in the sense she is not strong willed in a way Janeway was, and could sometimes offer an alternate perspective. But I feel that for me seven was so much more, maybe as she was allowed to develop more with a larger variety of episodes focused on her. Certainly for me I wouldn't say Kes leaving was something that affected my watching of the show. And I through enjoyed seasons 4 to 7.

I must say I may feel like this due to her underdevelopment. However I must comment her performance in the episode where she became an alien warlord ( Cant remember its name) was simply fantastic credit to her for that. I think if she had more episodes like that I may have appreciated her more.

 

[Archimago]

I'm not sure if Neelix was that good in his roles. Hiss role as cook was a bit..... debated by his crewmates, his role as Moral officer was so-so and his role as journalist was a bit hysterical.

But I will give you some points on this because whatever Neelix did, he had good intentions.

I must also state that Neelix actually was a rather normal character, maybe one of the most normal that Star Trek ever came up with.

Why? Because look at his background! His whole life was shattered when his family was killed, according to the book "Pathways" he actually had drug problems for a while until Wixiban saved him and cured him from that. But he was probably tortured by those memories from what happened to his family even later on. And my point is that every normal person could become like him because of such a tragedy.

What's admirable with Neelix is that his way to cope with that was to make everybody around him feel happy. He did his best to amuse, entertain and create a good feeling among his crewmates. When someone was in need, Neelix was there to back up that person. Sometimes he over-did such things and became a bit annoying (especially to Tuvok) but he did have good intentions.

He did however have some dark sides too, his jealousy and over-protection of Kes which actually made them drift apart. But I guess that may have been another effect of the tragic events in his past too.

Haha I absolutely agree. His cooking was indeed so so (depending on who's eating it) but he always had good intentions. And sometimes was very successful as moral officer especially in times when new people are brought abroad or someone is suffering from memory loss