Was Kes a Good Character?
- Thread starter hux
- Start date
Yesterday, I re-watched "Warlord" (s3E16) and Lien's performance was really impressive.
Since the beginning of ST:Voyager, Kes has been underestimated. Her character was too directly associated with Neelix and the Doctor.
Since the beginning of ST:Voyager, Kes has been underestimated. Her character was too directly associated with Neelix and the Doctor.
I don't understand why was that a bad thing? Kes seemed to be associated with Neelix as well as The Doctor, Paris, Tuvok and Janeway. She was a lovable character.
I thought she was really loveable.
Just look at her:
Just look at her:
"Have you seen her face?I thought she was really loveable.
Just look at her:
With her eyes reflect
The colors in the sky
On one familiar place
To be swept into
Whenever shes close by
Makes me wonder why
Run by, don't turn back
Can't hide from the look in her eyes"
Lyrics. "Have You Seen Her Face"
The Byrds
]
She was featured prominently in three of 12 episodes from roughly the middle of the season on (Warlord,, Darkling, and Before and After), and I believe she brightly exemplified the qualities that made Kes an extraordinary, multi-faceted character in all of them. Look for example to the stunning dialogue, IMO, that she carries on with Bad Doc in Darkling, where her calm demeanor, insightful thought, and compassionate tone nearly conspire to get him to relent in his malign quest, or at least seriously consider doing so. However, it is true that other than her large part in The Swarm at the beginning of the season, on average she was actually on screen appreciably less in more episodes than had been the case in the previous two seasons. I've long subscribed to the rationale that through Scorpion I, she would be returning for the 4th season, but that Wang's supposed artificial popularity boost tipped the scales for him and led to her non-renewal, bolstered in-universe by his being on death's door in that episode.
It certainly seems plausible though, that the reality might be that her departure, prefigured in Darkling, was actually set when Seven was cast, perhaps for no other reason than the implication for the male-female ratio if Kes had remained. In that light, B & A may have been a valedictory offering by the producers, giving the audience a perceived sense of fulfillment, by seeing the character in substance for the last time, showing what her future could have been like, as opposed to an indication that she was still being developed to play an even larger role in the upcoming season. It does seem telling that in the three productions following that one, she is almost invisible, even appearing to be blocked out of vision throughout Dispalced. The fact that Kes seemed to be given a pivotal part in Scorpion I as the Cassandra who was revealing truths about the danger to come, may have been just the beginning of the arc that was planned from the beginning to end with her departure in The Gift.
Still, one hears stories of the surprise and shock to Lien and others when presented with the script for that episode.Notwithstanding, it certainly seems less obvious now, with some greater reflection, that the Wang non-event had anything to do with Lien's departure than it being something that had been decided on much earlier.
I don't think that the actions she took to greatly be the agent of his maturation and accepted integration with the crew, was because she perceived a kinship, age based or otherwise. It seems rather to be an early and continuing marker of her incipient wisdom, compassion, and ability to see the potential in others, even when they were rejected or dismissed out of hand by everyone else. Indeed, this was a further development of qualities that we received an intimation of in Caretaker, but now could be shown as having a real and palpable impact on a member of the crew whose value, acceptance, and ubiquity could be primarily laid at her feet and signified that her age was really an irrelevant factor in the presence of her extraordinary gifts.
In very difficult circumstances for Lien, Mulgrew, and the rest of the cast, I have to say that she gave a very sensitive and feeling performance in The Gift, that exemplified her character's attributes to the last, and poignantly made her way out to meet her destiny, even though, by definition, the focus on this ostensible final chapter had to be unfortunately truncated to allow for the essentials of the dynamic that would define a new character's role on Voyager to be established..
Honestly, I don't think the point is particularly relevant, though I believe I have hashed through it before, perhaps even with you. I do believe that it was immediate, although what you have suggested regarding Kes' nature being an impediment to Tieran quickly establishing primacy is plausible given what we learn later on about the constant battle between their two wills. What I would say that most prominently suggests that it's other than you suggest, is that the escape plan is certainly not executed off the cuff, but has been thoroughly planned and in fact the scene in the transporter room where Kes is showing Nori and Adin the surroundings, is an integral piece of that preparation. Bear in mind that happens before the pivotal lunch scene, which gives Tieran the opportunity to remove Neelix as an impediment that would take his focus away from the escape.
Now having said that, I do agree with you in the sense that what Tieran forces, is a reflection and integration of what he perceives or intuits about Kes' true feelings as they have evolved as regards a realization that continuing with Neelix as before is no longer in accord with how she's changing in both her feelings and desire to manifest, perhaps in a different way, her desire to grow. So, effectively, Tieran is just providing a definitive and immediate voice to what Kes has been sensing. One doesn't really have to look farther than how she responds to Neelix after having Tieran expelled. No expression of happiness in being reunited with him. Nothing like her reaction to his safe return in Parturition or Tuvix. No recognition at all really. She knows it's over and that the decision is of her own volition.
I agree with your assessment. So many people casually react to the relationship with what I think is a not very reflective opinion, based often on a reverse 'Beauty and the Beast" paradigm or just a simple disbelief that Kes would sense that Neelix had anything to offer her. But, indeed, they were exactly what the other desperately needed at the time that they met. Aside from the obvious issue of providing a means of escape from the Kazon, I think Kes found an expression in Neelix of her first stirrings or romantic passion and ardor. He was someone who believed in her without reservation, the potential that she was just nascently beginning to fully comprehend, and she saw him as a "man of the world", as it were, someone she found fascinating and exciting at the same time. For Neelix, Kes represented the salvation to the sojourn of loneliness and self-enforced isolation that he had come to believe was his just penance for the fear and escape that guided his decision for self-preservation when presented with the test of joining the fight in the war, and perhaps guilt in not suffering the same fate as his family. Kes brought him back to life, to feel something meaningfully, and engage the wider world once more. I think that theirs was a true love match for a time, but one that didn't necessarily reveal or allow Neelix to exorcise all of his demons and ultimately, couldn't withstand Kes' inevitable need to express her ever continuing growth in other directions, as regards her emotional needs.
I think you've just got about everything spot on, Lynx. I would just say that the relationship enduring longer than you suggest it should have, still was valuable in the insights that Kes helped Neelix to come to grips with as more of his backstory became evident. As for Warlord, I concede that it didn't provide a clear cut, unequivocal statement of intent that was strictly her own at the moment, but I do think that as done, it did give voice to what she was genuinely and assuredly feeling by that time. Now as an indicator of that growth of hers and in the interest of her being able to express unequivocally on her own, another scenario certainly would have felt more appropriate to many viewers. However, I personally appreciate the more ambiguous and serpentine manner it was presented in Warlord. I think it illustrated the value of subtle perception and intelligence, albeit on Tieran's part, in discerning Kes' genuine needs which happened to be in accord with what he needed at the time, as well. I especially appreciated, what I even interpret as a reflection of regret in taking the action that he did, as I think he recognized that the rich history that Kes and Neelix genuinely shared was irrevocably being brought to an end, even if it would've happened on its own anyway at some point in the near future.
I'm afraid I don't understand your characterization here, other than perhaps as a reference to Before and After, in which their pairing was brought about because of B'Elanna's death. But I honestly think that the love Tom lavished on Kes wasn't simply a rebound scenario, but a reaffirmation of what he had so strongly felt for her in the past, that he even had confessed would have been something he would've pursued if not for his respect for the bond that she and Neelix shared and his fundamental sense of the right choice in honoring that reality. Kes was certainly always very fond of Tom, even though her emotional naivete didn't allow her to acknowledge what was so obvious to others. That the close friendship she felt for him could blossom into true passion and desire doesn't seem out of place or unlikely to me at all. She certainly could discern the depth to which he was indeed a genuine and virtuous person, which she undoubtedly would feel very attracted to, as well as perhaps the lightness he could bring to her life, a contrast to how the expression of emotions and aspirations had possibly become more difficult and problematic with Neelix as time had gone on. One thing that furthers my sense of the appropriateness of this pairing, though in just a facile way, was how i was struck by how closely Kes and Tom seemed to physically resemble each other in Before and After. I won't venture to make any suggestions on the possibility of self-love here, but I definitely find it an interesting visual statement.
I don't know how significant I find the example of The Cloud as a real indicator of something significant about his personality, rather him simply being used as a ready comedic element, Janeway's foil, if you will, where his somewhat exaggerated high dudgeon is really played for laughs, except maybe in the sense that one might want to see in its resolution, a beginning of the abundant respect and admiration that he so clearly affixes to Janeway as the show progresses. As for your other examples, as I've argued before, these are but some of the examples that peel away aspects of Neelix's personality that he can't or won't admit to, save in the instance of an emergency or explicit test, as he perceives it. I don't deny that the descriptors you employ are there to be readily seen, but to propound that they stand on their own without any context to explain or mitigate them, does the character a disservice, by denying the complexity of the emotions that he is really expressing and just being satisfied to accept them at face value.
In fact, I wouldn't relate the situation encountered in the Phage and its impact as really being specific to Neelix. It seems to me it would be just as easily seen as a predictable and logical reaction that anyone, human or alien, would express as an initial angry, unreasoning denial of the acceptability of facing a lifetime of such total constraint. How does it really differ from someone reacting to an accident that renders them a quadriplegic, or in the realm of Trek, the fate that befell Captain Pike? The arc that Twisted belongs to, doesn't really reflect IMO, the surface response of unreasoning jealousy as a genuine innate part of Neelix's emotional makeup. Instead, he's presented here as someone who feels he's been the recipient of a beautiful, life affirming, and likely undeserved gift, and one that he knows brought him back from the dead basically. In light of that, the prospect of losing the preciousness of what he has with Kes, leads him to unrealistically question the unquestioning solidity of the bond he shares with her. The competition he sees with Tom is never a viable reality, deapite the latter's feelings for Kes and that Neelix has the ability to ultimately see past this and show that he can process the situation as it actually is shown shortly thereafter in Parturition.
Neelix's first substantive contact on Voyager is with Tuvok, and the seriousness of purpose and responsibility that he views, is both frustrating and replete with admiration. While Neelix clearly always wants to be able to connect with Tuvok on a convivial , friendly level, he also sees in him an individual whose steadfastness and resolve are admirable qualities and ones that are worth emulating. It is interesting perhaps, to see in his idealization of Tuvok, a resonance of the sense of duty and courage that he was unable to summon when met with the life changing challenge he faced on Rinax. To be accepted and most importantly, respected by Tuvok becomes a quest in which success will represent a deeper indication of redemption than even the relationship with Kes finally serves to instill. So, in a dire situation in which he knows that he can offer skills and knowledge that will allow him to prove himself meaningfully to the person that it has the greatest importance for him to be able to do so, it's perfectly understandable that he will react with pique when it seems that his offering is being rejected out of hand. But, of course, that's not how he accepts leaving things, and through his refusal to be dissuaded from doggedly continuing his efforts, the crisis is averted and an important link is forged in what winds up to be a relationship that both come to see the disparate and genuine values that are inherent in the other's personality, however difficult the path of that discovery had turned out to be.
Lastly, you cite Mortal Coil as a reflection of the negative elements that underlie his personality. Similarly to The Phage, I find that a reaction to the exposure to long held and treasured beliefs, ingrained in one's upbringing and society, as appearing to be shown as false and without substance, is a trial that just about anyone would, again, respond to initially with disbelief and bitter anger. I don't think you mean to belittle or deny that as a verity. I think what may be off putting as you view it, is that this reaction is raging within him, despite the reality of his life having been given back to him, and yet he not only won't acknowledge the miraculous gift that he has received, but comes to be dismissive and resentful of it, to the degree, finally, that he desires to throw it away. While it might be seen as ungrateful and foolishly arrogant to respond this way, with increasing virulence to boot, I think it's reasonable to view Neelix's attitude in the vein of being one of the final pieces of being able to come to terms with what set him on the path to Voyager to begin with. The denial of his faith and reliance in these beliefs wasn't just a rote decrial of the failure to find a supposedly enduring and unquestioned bastion of societal norms. For Neelix, it represented the last chance to find expiation for that life changing failure, by finding succor and acceptance from those, whose his decision, resulted in permanent separation in life. Such a blow to what was the ultimate expression of being able to regain his former self, shouldn't be minimized for the huge significance that Neelix had undoubtedly affixed to it for many years, and likely maintained any will to survive during that long time wondering in the wilderness. Given a hope of such dimensions, the fact that he is able to pull himself back from the brink, albeit in the unfortunately frequent manner that Voyager sought to resolve deep personal crises with denouements that lacked the substance that was warranted, spoke to a recognition of the importance of those that had come to rely, depend, and value him in the here and now, with a glimmer of promise for a future no longer encumbered by the ghosts of his past.
She was featured prominently in three of 12 episodes from roughly the middle of the season on (Warlord,, Darkling, and Before and After), and I believe she brightly exemplified the qualities that made Kes an extraordinary, multi-faceted character in all of them. Look for example to the stunning dialogue, IMO, that she carries on with Bad Doc in Darkling, where her calm demeanor, insightful thought, and compassionate tone nearly conspire to get him to relent in his malign quest, or at least seriously consider doing so. However, it is true that other than her large part in The Swarm at the beginning of the season, on average she was actually on screen appreciably less in more episodes than had been the case in the previous two seasons. I've long subscribed to the rationale that through Scorpion I, she would be returning for the 4th season, but that Wang's supposed artificial popularity boost tipped the scales for him and led to her non-renewal, bolstered in-universe by his being on death's door in that episode.
It certainly seems plausible though, that the reality might be that her departure, prefigured in Darkling, was actually set when Seven was cast, perhaps for no other reason than the implication for the male-female ratio if Kes had remained. In that light, B & A may have been a valedictory offering by the producers, giving the audience a perceived sense of fulfillment, by seeing the character in substance for the last time, showing what her future could have been like, as opposed to an indication that she was still being developed to play an even larger role in the upcoming season. It does seem telling that in the three productions following that one, she is almost invisible, even appearing to be blocked out of vision throughout Dispalced. The fact that Kes seemed to be given a pivotal part in Scorpion I as the Cassandra who was revealing truths about the danger to come, may have been just the beginning of the arc that was planned from the beginning to end with her departure in The Gift.
Still, one hears stories of the surprise and shock to Lien and others when presented with the script for that episode.Notwithstanding, it certainly seems less obvious now, with some greater reflection, that the Wang non-event had anything to do with Lien's departure than it being something that had been decided on much earlier.
I don't think that the actions she took to greatly be the agent of his maturation and accepted integration with the crew, was because she perceived a kinship, age based or otherwise. It seems rather to be an early and continuing marker of her incipient wisdom, compassion, and ability to see the potential in others, even when they were rejected or dismissed out of hand by everyone else. Indeed, this was a further development of qualities that we received an intimation of in Caretaker, but now could be shown as having a real and palpable impact on a member of the crew whose value, acceptance, and ubiquity could be primarily laid at her feet and signified that her age was really an irrelevant factor in the presence of her extraordinary gifts.
In very difficult circumstances for Lien, Mulgrew, and the rest of the cast, I have to say that she gave a very sensitive and feeling performance in The Gift, that exemplified her character's attributes to the last, and poignantly made her way out to meet her destiny, even though, by definition, the focus on this ostensible final chapter had to be unfortunately truncated to allow for the essentials of the dynamic that would define a new character's role on Voyager to be established..
Honestly, I don't think the point is particularly relevant, though I believe I have hashed through it before, perhaps even with you. I do believe that it was immediate, although what you have suggested regarding Kes' nature being an impediment to Tieran quickly establishing primacy is plausible given what we learn later on about the constant battle between their two wills. What I would say that most prominently suggests that it's other than you suggest, is that the escape plan is certainly not executed off the cuff, but has been thoroughly planned and in fact the scene in the transporter room where Kes is showing Nori and Adin the surroundings, is an integral piece of that preparation. Bear in mind that happens before the pivotal lunch scene, which gives Tieran the opportunity to remove Neelix as an impediment that would take his focus away from the escape.
Now having said that, I do agree with you in the sense that what Tieran forces, is a reflection and integration of what he perceives or intuits about Kes' true feelings as they have evolved as regards a realization that continuing with Neelix as before is no longer in accord with how she's changing in both her feelings and desire to manifest, perhaps in a different way, her desire to grow. So, effectively, Tieran is just providing a definitive and immediate voice to what Kes has been sensing. One doesn't really have to look farther than how she responds to Neelix after having Tieran expelled. No expression of happiness in being reunited with him. Nothing like her reaction to his safe return in Parturition or Tuvix. No recognition at all really. She knows it's over and that the decision is of her own volition.
I agree with your assessment. So many people casually react to the relationship with what I think is a not very reflective opinion, based often on a reverse 'Beauty and the Beast" paradigm or just a simple disbelief that Kes would sense that Neelix had anything to offer her. But, indeed, they were exactly what the other desperately needed at the time that they met. Aside from the obvious issue of providing a means of escape from the Kazon, I think Kes found an expression in Neelix of her first stirrings or romantic passion and ardor. He was someone who believed in her without reservation, the potential that she was just nascently beginning to fully comprehend, and she saw him as a "man of the world", as it were, someone she found fascinating and exciting at the same time. For Neelix, Kes represented the salvation to the sojourn of loneliness and self-enforced isolation that he had come to believe was his just penance for the fear and escape that guided his decision for self-preservation when presented with the test of joining the fight in the war, and perhaps guilt in not suffering the same fate as his family. Kes brought him back to life, to feel something meaningfully, and engage the wider world once more. I think that theirs was a true love match for a time, but one that didn't necessarily reveal or allow Neelix to exorcise all of his demons and ultimately, couldn't withstand Kes' inevitable need to express her ever continuing growth in other directions, as regards her emotional needs.
I think you've just got about everything spot on, Lynx. I would just say that the relationship enduring longer than you suggest it should have, still was valuable in the insights that Kes helped Neelix to come to grips with as more of his backstory became evident. As for Warlord, I concede that it didn't provide a clear cut, unequivocal statement of intent that was strictly her own at the moment, but I do think that as done, it did give voice to what she was genuinely and assuredly feeling by that time. Now as an indicator of that growth of hers and in the interest of her being able to express unequivocally on her own, another scenario certainly would have felt more appropriate to many viewers. However, I personally appreciate the more ambiguous and serpentine manner it was presented in Warlord. I think it illustrated the value of subtle perception and intelligence, albeit on Tieran's part, in discerning Kes' genuine needs which happened to be in accord with what he needed at the time, as well. I especially appreciated, what I even interpret as a reflection of regret in taking the action that he did, as I think he recognized that the rich history that Kes and Neelix genuinely shared was irrevocably being brought to an end, even if it would've happened on its own anyway at some point in the near future.
I'm afraid I don't understand your characterization here, other than perhaps as a reference to Before and After, in which their pairing was brought about because of B'Elanna's death. But I honestly think that the love Tom lavished on Kes wasn't simply a rebound scenario, but a reaffirmation of what he had so strongly felt for her in the past, that he even had confessed would have been something he would've pursued if not for his respect for the bond that she and Neelix shared and his fundamental sense of the right choice in honoring that reality. Kes was certainly always very fond of Tom, even though her emotional naivete didn't allow her to acknowledge what was so obvious to others. That the close friendship she felt for him could blossom into true passion and desire doesn't seem out of place or unlikely to me at all. She certainly could discern the depth to which he was indeed a genuine and virtuous person, which she undoubtedly would feel very attracted to, as well as perhaps the lightness he could bring to her life, a contrast to how the expression of emotions and aspirations had possibly become more difficult and problematic with Neelix as time had gone on. One thing that furthers my sense of the appropriateness of this pairing, though in just a facile way, was how i was struck by how closely Kes and Tom seemed to physically resemble each other in Before and After. I won't venture to make any suggestions on the possibility of self-love here, but I definitely find it an interesting visual statement.
I don't know how significant I find the example of The Cloud as a real indicator of something significant about his personality, rather him simply being used as a ready comedic element, Janeway's foil, if you will, where his somewhat exaggerated high dudgeon is really played for laughs, except maybe in the sense that one might want to see in its resolution, a beginning of the abundant respect and admiration that he so clearly affixes to Janeway as the show progresses. As for your other examples, as I've argued before, these are but some of the examples that peel away aspects of Neelix's personality that he can't or won't admit to, save in the instance of an emergency or explicit test, as he perceives it. I don't deny that the descriptors you employ are there to be readily seen, but to propound that they stand on their own without any context to explain or mitigate them, does the character a disservice, by denying the complexity of the emotions that he is really expressing and just being satisfied to accept them at face value.
In fact, I wouldn't relate the situation encountered in the Phage and its impact as really being specific to Neelix. It seems to me it would be just as easily seen as a predictable and logical reaction that anyone, human or alien, would express as an initial angry, unreasoning denial of the acceptability of facing a lifetime of such total constraint. How does it really differ from someone reacting to an accident that renders them a quadriplegic, or in the realm of Trek, the fate that befell Captain Pike? The arc that Twisted belongs to, doesn't really reflect IMO, the surface response of unreasoning jealousy as a genuine innate part of Neelix's emotional makeup. Instead, he's presented here as someone who feels he's been the recipient of a beautiful, life affirming, and likely undeserved gift, and one that he knows brought him back from the dead basically. In light of that, the prospect of losing the preciousness of what he has with Kes, leads him to unrealistically question the unquestioning solidity of the bond he shares with her. The competition he sees with Tom is never a viable reality, deapite the latter's feelings for Kes and that Neelix has the ability to ultimately see past this and show that he can process the situation as it actually is shown shortly thereafter in Parturition.
Neelix's first substantive contact on Voyager is with Tuvok, and the seriousness of purpose and responsibility that he views, is both frustrating and replete with admiration. While Neelix clearly always wants to be able to connect with Tuvok on a convivial , friendly level, he also sees in him an individual whose steadfastness and resolve are admirable qualities and ones that are worth emulating. It is interesting perhaps, to see in his idealization of Tuvok, a resonance of the sense of duty and courage that he was unable to summon when met with the life changing challenge he faced on Rinax. To be accepted and most importantly, respected by Tuvok becomes a quest in which success will represent a deeper indication of redemption than even the relationship with Kes finally serves to instill. So, in a dire situation in which he knows that he can offer skills and knowledge that will allow him to prove himself meaningfully to the person that it has the greatest importance for him to be able to do so, it's perfectly understandable that he will react with pique when it seems that his offering is being rejected out of hand. But, of course, that's not how he accepts leaving things, and through his refusal to be dissuaded from doggedly continuing his efforts, the crisis is averted and an important link is forged in what winds up to be a relationship that both come to see the disparate and genuine values that are inherent in the other's personality, however difficult the path of that discovery had turned out to be.
Lastly, you cite Mortal Coil as a reflection of the negative elements that underlie his personality. Similarly to The Phage, I find that a reaction to the exposure to long held and treasured beliefs, ingrained in one's upbringing and society, as appearing to be shown as false and without substance, is a trial that just about anyone would, again, respond to initially with disbelief and bitter anger. I don't think you mean to belittle or deny that as a verity. I think what may be off putting as you view it, is that this reaction is raging within him, despite the reality of his life having been given back to him, and yet he not only won't acknowledge the miraculous gift that he has received, but comes to be dismissive and resentful of it, to the degree, finally, that he desires to throw it away. While it might be seen as ungrateful and foolishly arrogant to respond this way, with increasing virulence to boot, I think it's reasonable to view Neelix's attitude in the vein of being one of the final pieces of being able to come to terms with what set him on the path to Voyager to begin with. The denial of his faith and reliance in these beliefs wasn't just a rote decrial of the failure to find a supposedly enduring and unquestioned bastion of societal norms. For Neelix, it represented the last chance to find expiation for that life changing failure, by finding succor and acceptance from those, whose his decision, resulted in permanent separation in life. Such a blow to what was the ultimate expression of being able to regain his former self, shouldn't be minimized for the huge significance that Neelix had undoubtedly affixed to it for many years, and likely maintained any will to survive during that long time wondering in the wilderness. Given a hope of such dimensions, the fact that he is able to pull himself back from the brink, albeit in the unfortunately frequent manner that Voyager sought to resolve deep personal crises with denouements that lacked the substance that was warranted, spoke to a recognition of the importance of those that had come to rely, depend, and value him in the here and now, with a glimmer of promise for a future no longer encumbered by the ghosts of his past.
Well, I had to badly express myself. Sorry.
Yes, Kes was/is a lovable character. I just regret that being associated for each of the her scenes, to another character, prevented the character from developping her character as it was for Doctor and Seven, who were able to exist by themselves with a certain success (even if from S5, the Doctor really irritated me by becoming uncontrolled and unbearable).
A long and very well-written comment.
However, I have to bring up a few points here.
When it comes to the departure of Kes, you come up with a theory that there was a plan to dump her already in the middle of season 3. I don't think that's the way it happened.
You state correctly that Kes had three episodes as "main character" which is "Warlord", "Darkling" and "Before And After". As you also wrote, she had a prominent role in "The Swarm". However, I would like to point out that she also had a prominent role in "Scorpion#1" and actually in "Sacred Ground" too even if her appearance in that episode was a bit passive.
But there is actually two characters who have equal screen time in season 3 and that's Neelix and most of all, Harry Kim.
Neelix has two episodes, "Fair Trade" and "Rise" plus a role as one of the main characters in "False Profits".
Kim has only one episode as main character and that's "Favorite Son". He also plays a prominent part in "The Chute" and "Alter Ego". But that's all.
Based on that, I do think that the scenario that Kim was going to be dumped but those in charge changed their minds after that silly "People's Magazine" inside poll.
As for Kes, when I first watched season 3, I had a feeling that she was going to get a more prominent role due to what happened in episodes like "Darkling" and "Scorpion" and if they really planned to dump her back in season 3, why didn't they let her leave with Zahir in "Darkling", that would have been a more decent ending and a possibility to bring her back in a decent way too?
Well, I'm not convinced that my suggestion as to how her departure may have been planned by the producers from far further back, does supercede the Wang/People magazine rationale, just that it seems more reasonable when one looks at Kes' utilization throughout the season. In the 8 episodes between Warlord and Darkling, again she is almost nowhere to be seen, save the part she played in the initial scenes in Coda, after Janeway's death. There would have been another slight change in that sequence of productions, if the reconcilement scene with Neelix hadn't been edited out of Fair Trade, which was an unfortunate choice in what the audience missed there as some kind of make good for their scene in Warlord. Regardless, the reality is she appeared in Warlord, which was clearly suggestive of some thought in using Kes more creatively, I believe. But basically from that point through the end of the season, I think one can make the case that her only appearances of note, all were markers, in different ways, to her eventual departure.
Darkling clearly represented the germination of the idea that Kes could very easily see the attractions and possibilities for continuing her accretion of knowledge and a more mature pursuit of a romantic relationship away from Voyager. As you state, she could have plausibly decided to leave then, with her brief explanation of why she did otherwise, understandable but not truly compelling. As I stated above, I think one can make a pretty convincing case that Before and After may very well been an offering to the viewers of a kind of summary statement about the character. This is who Kes was, is, and but for the fact that she will soon be gone, who she might have become. It allowed her to shine one last time on her own. Again, in showing her with abilities that had really never been in evidence before, even in Cold Fire, Scorpion I seems to be fairly pointed evidence that the ultimate rationale for her departure, was being set in motion. Kim at death's door as an indication that he was going to be out the door? Well, I won't say that it was a crafty tactic or feint to throw the audience off track as to what changes were going to follow, accompanying Seven's introduction, but I think that you can just consider this question; how unusual was it for Kim to die or be in danger of dying? Not a rare thing!!
If this scenario is, in fact, fairly close to the truth, as it played out, it wouldn't mitigate the heedless miscalculation that TPTB made in denying us the pleasure of seeing a supremely gifted actress continue her story of growth and discovery on Voyager. Perhaps as a sister figure for Seven, supplementing or replacing the role that the Doctor played in the process of helping to leading Seven in her transformation, maybe the two combining to challenge the thinking and decison making process of Janeway at times. Perhaps, logically enough as the ship's counselor, a role that Neelix performed, but only in a partial sense. Perhaps as a full fledged doctor, allowing the EMH to actively pursue his broadening areas of interest and mastery in a different niche on the ship altogether. So many possibilities that were just thrown away, and whether it was because of plain shortsightedness, crew gender ratios, money, or what now seems increasingly to me, like the most fanciful to believe of all, that the show runners would actually buy that a moment's publicity for Garrett Wang, was going to make any difference in the quality they already well knew he represented, the bottom line is that we suffered a telling loss that changed the character of the show as it might have been, that would have had no negative impact on ratings, but only a sorrowful sacrifice of a greater promise of what the remainder of Voyager's journey might have been like.
Darkling clearly represented the germination of the idea that Kes could very easily see the attractions and possibilities for continuing her accretion of knowledge and a more mature pursuit of a romantic relationship away from Voyager. As you state, she could have plausibly decided to leave then, with her brief explanation of why she did otherwise, understandable but not truly compelling. As I stated above, I think one can make a pretty convincing case that Before and After may very well been an offering to the viewers of a kind of summary statement about the character. This is who Kes was, is, and but for the fact that she will soon be gone, who she might have become. It allowed her to shine one last time on her own. Again, in showing her with abilities that had really never been in evidence before, even in Cold Fire, Scorpion I seems to be fairly pointed evidence that the ultimate rationale for her departure, was being set in motion. Kim at death's door as an indication that he was going to be out the door? Well, I won't say that it was a crafty tactic or feint to throw the audience off track as to what changes were going to follow, accompanying Seven's introduction, but I think that you can just consider this question; how unusual was it for Kim to die or be in danger of dying? Not a rare thing!!
If this scenario is, in fact, fairly close to the truth, as it played out, it wouldn't mitigate the heedless miscalculation that TPTB made in denying us the pleasure of seeing a supremely gifted actress continue her story of growth and discovery on Voyager. Perhaps as a sister figure for Seven, supplementing or replacing the role that the Doctor played in the process of helping to leading Seven in her transformation, maybe the two combining to challenge the thinking and decison making process of Janeway at times. Perhaps, logically enough as the ship's counselor, a role that Neelix performed, but only in a partial sense. Perhaps as a full fledged doctor, allowing the EMH to actively pursue his broadening areas of interest and mastery in a different niche on the ship altogether. So many possibilities that were just thrown away, and whether it was because of plain shortsightedness, crew gender ratios, money, or what now seems increasingly to me, like the most fanciful to believe of all, that the show runners would actually buy that a moment's publicity for Garrett Wang, was going to make any difference in the quality they already well knew he represented, the bottom line is that we suffered a telling loss that changed the character of the show as it might have been, that would have had no negative impact on ratings, but only a sorrowful sacrifice of a greater promise of what the remainder of Voyager's journey might have been like.
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Now why should I have that?On Kes? ..... ya-think?!?!
Exactly my opinion too!
The writers didn't have faith in the character and Lien must have known they're interests were to create a DATA/ SPOCK character for Janeway, and phase Kes out.
Really stupid of them.
They already had The Doctor who they made more human and more important for every season.
Sometimes I wonder why they made Voyager after all when all they wanted was a TNG clone.
Why didn't they do 7 more seasons with TNG then?
I suspect it was more Kes was yet another of those brainstormed Star Trek characters that seemed better on paper than what the writers found to work with. The whole "elf girl with a handful of years lifespan" seemed great on paper at the beginning. But at the end of the day there wasn't much there for the writers to latch onto.
The writers didn't have the right mind set, and they lacked imagination, for a character like Kes. There was a lot there to explore the character but instead they focused too much on Janeway and later 7 and the Doctor.
The problem was she was from the point of creation a butterfly character. At the start of the day her main defining feature was her limited lifespan. This is something that would have worked well for a single episode species, but I'm sure was a major drawback to the writers for an ongoing character. Whenever you sit down to write a character, pull up their unique features and ask what can we do with them this week, and always must skip over the first obvious answer of "die" that's not a character the writers are going to love.
Quirky aliens that seemed a good idea at the time seemed to be a major issue from TNG onwards. Heck Rodenberry and crew initially had no idea what to do with Worf beyond "wouldn't it be cool to put a Klingon on the bridge?" It was fan fascination with the character that led to him being main cast. I suspect the writers found the Trill aspects of Dax on DS9 to be awkward and difficult to easily utilize. Thankfully Terry Farrell's natural charms and chemistry as a pleasant and attractive Spock role largely papered over the need for messing with the whole backstory too much. They could still find plenty for her to do every week. Kes was probably the worst of these as they never did really answer that question of "what to do with her week to week". Nor was she alone in that regard for Voyager. Chakotay (sp?) was another great example of "ok we've got one, now what do we do with it?"
I'll part with you there Lynx. Voyager is so different than TNG. Huge difference between the two.
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