The Saratoga (etc) bridge sets

[Maurice]

Did they really rearrange the bridge, or did they just turn the "command module" around and push it closer to one side? I suspect the latter because on Grissom we see Saavik seated at Spock's station (with its characteristic slide out side consoles), a turbolift alcove to screen right of it, and the console and displays to the right are where the damage indicators were in TWOK, also to the left of Spock's station.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Did they really rearrange the bridge, or did they just turn the "command module" around and push it closer to one side? I suspect the latter because on Grissom we see Saavik seated at Spock's station.

Yes, this is obviously the case, early on in the film we see the same arrangement on the bridge of the Enterprise.

And another shot of the Saratoga bridge seems to confirm this, too.
It's interesting that these small panels had been "grated" for the Saratoga, the b & w shot with Majel and Gene shows the same changed detail.

Looks like the riddle has been finally solved. As it now appears the turbo lift(s) leading to the bridges of Grissom and Saratoga would actually be on the left side of the viewscreen (assuming there'd be still a place for it considering how close the helm/nav consoles or the entire inner command module had been moved towards the other stations).

Bob

Epilogue: Some of the "confusion" may be attributed to the fact that they didn't only re-arrange the bridge stations between TMP and TWOK - they also re-arranged between TWOK and STFS!

Most noticable is the removal of the station to the left side of Spock's station after TWOK. It's 3 o'clock position was filled by the station previously at 2 o'clock.

 

[Lt. Washburn]

I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but I found something that I think is very relevant. Yesterday, while searching online for production images from Star Trek, I came across a set of photos being sold that I had never seen before. I really wanted to bring them to people's attention and ask if these were new or had been seen around someplace. I however just stuck a pin in it until today when, quite by coincidence, I came on this thread and it was talking about and questioning the very thing in the pictures.

It's several groups showing a photo survey of the Enterprise sets. What's interesting is the captions refer to it as the Saratoga. Additionally, they show the helm completely out of alignment, whether for construction purposes or for filming, I don't know.

It's hard to tell what's going on with the paint or graphics, but it might be in the midst of being redressed for the Saratoga. The front of the bridge seems to still have scorch marks... so maybe it wasn't repainted at the end of ST IV like has been reported.

Also, these photo sets are all listed as being from The Next Generation. Is it possible they were a photo survey in anticipation of adapting the sets for TNG, very early in its pre-production?

I thought about buying them, but maybe someone here with a little more interest or disposable cash wants to go for them. If not, maybe there's someone or some site that can be referred to them? I would love to see these rescued and scanned in high resolution for historical purposes and available for fans to see. Thoughts?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-TREK-T...221005?hash=item566ac100cd:g:qUQAAOSwd4tUKMNt

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-2-STAR-...221002?hash=item566ac100ca:g:HWoAAOSwVFlUKMOo

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-3-STAR-...053238?hash=item35ddb77036:g:zfQAAOSwGvhUKMPY

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-4-STAR-...221003?hash=item566ac100cb:g:~xQAAOSwQItUKMQP

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-5-STAR-...053241?hash=item35ddb77039:g:RfkAAOSwDk5UKMSD

By the way, this guy has a lot of cool stuff. I think he might have been the source for various post-show photos of the Galileo set piece.

http://stores.ebay.com/Sword-and-Planet-Books-and-Comics

 

[cardinal biggles]

Oh, wow, I wish I had the money to buy all those up. It definitely confirms what others in this thread indicated about the placement of the bridge's center area for the set's appearances as the Grissom in TSFS and Saratoga in TVH.

Without being able to see them in greater detail, it's hard to tell exactly when those photos were taken. I'd guess they were done as the bridge was being converted from the Saratoga to the Enterprise-A, because while some stations look like they received their Okudagrams, others (particularly the helm/nav) look like the blocks with TMP-TSFS buttons and panels have been removed.

As far as how much of the bridge was ultimately converted over to the all-white, all-Okudagrammed Enterprise-A, there's two differing accounts.

1. In this Trekplace interview with Shane Johnson (author of Mr. Scott's Guide), Johnson claimed that only those parts which were visible in the final shot got the makeover; the rest of the set was left gray with visible scorch marks on the walls.
2. On the other hand, a year or two ago Mike Okuda posted a photo of the last scene from TVH on his Facebook page, and I took the opportunity to ask whether he had created graphics for all the bridge stations, and he confirmed that he had. Two things back up Mr. Okuda:
   • the photo linked upthread of Gene and Majel sitting at Spock's station, where it's clear that it, and the damage control station beyond, got a makeover even though both would have been out of frame.
   • this Good Morning America interview conducted on the bridge as part of the publicity work for TVH. The relevant portion begins around the 4:30 mark.
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[Joe_Atari]

By the way, this guy has a lot of cool stuff. I think he might have been the source for various post-show photos of the Galileo set piece.

James Van Hise!

I'd guess they were done as the bridge was being converted from the Saratoga to the Enterprise-A...

Yep, although it's strange that Van Hise would misidentify these as TNG sets when they clearly weren't (not yet anyway).

 

[Lt. Washburn]

The corridor seems to be partially disassembled... in the part that got changed when converted to the more open curved corridor on TNG.

 

[Vger23]

This would seem to indicate that the engineering set was still standing at this point. I always wondered why we never saw it again after Wrath. Even the one shot in TSFS was so tight it could have been filmed in my bathroom.

 

[Joe_Atari]

The corridor seems to be partially disassembled... in the part that got changed when converted to the more open curved corridor on TNG.

Maybe a result of the pyro from TSFS? The corridors weren't needed for TVH of course.

Others are probably more knowledgeable on the possible overlap between principal photography on TVH and pre-production on TNG, but my understanding is that pre-pro on TNG didn't begin until October 1986 -- well after shooting on TVH wrapped.

This would seem to indicate that the engineering set was still standing at this point. I always wondered why we never saw it again after Wrath. Even the one shot in TSFS was so tight it could have been filmed in my bathroom.

I thought engineering had been (minimally) redressed for the brief scene on Excelsior in TSFS. Also, according to the Return to Tomorrow TMP book, the lighting effect for the warp core (née intermix chamber) was quite complex and cranky, and since very few scenes called for the set it was basically used for storage (according to the Shane Johnson interview linked upthread) until it was eventually redressed into the TNG engine room (with a much simpler lighting effect). That redress reportedly happened very late in the production of "Encounter at Farpoint"; there originally wasn't an engine room planned at all for the Enterprise D.

The Stage 9 sets must have been a mess by this point, so the tight shots in engineering and on the Grissom / Saratoga bridge are understandable -- in the latter case because much of the set had been dismantled (including the ceiling judging by the photos) and there was still battle damage all over the place.

 

[trynda1701]

Can anyone say if any of the TMP intermix chamber was used in the Voyager engineering set? That warp core always reminded me of a more compact TMP style, the lighting effect especially.

 

[Richard Baker]

Can anyone say if any of the TMP intermix chamber was used in the Voyager engineering set? That warp core always reminded me of a more compact TMP style, the lighting effect especially.

I think they used a similar lighting technique but share no physical parts with the TMP chamber.

 

[Workbee]

I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but I found something that I think is very relevant.... * * * snip * * *

Great find! I've always been curious to see more of this set at this stage of production.

It occurs to me that these photos were labeled these as Saratoga in order to not to reveal the ending of TVH in the event they leaked out.

 

[Lt. Washburn]

One of the weird things I was surprised by when I kept seeing references to it years ago, was that apparently the sets were kept up in between films. Not knowing much about film production, I had assumed they were broken down and warehoused, as a big soundstage, on a major studio lot, would be more valuable if it could be used for other productions, but I guess not. One account talked about touring the sets, I think in anticipation of use for TNG, and finding them covered in cat poop.

Mass me wonder about later films... the TNG ones and the reboots... I'm pretty sure those sets haven't been left standing between productions; even moving to different stages, right?

 

[Griffeytrek]

One of the weird things I was surprised by when I kept seeing references to it years ago, was that apparently the sets were kept up in between films. Not knowing much about film production, I had assumed they were broken down and warehoused, as a big soundstage, on a major studio lot, would be more valuable if it could be used for other productions, but I guess not. One account talked about touring the sets, I think in anticipation of use for TNG, and finding them covered in cat poop.

Mass me wonder about later films... the TNG ones and the reboots... I'm pretty sure those sets haven't been left standing between productions; even moving to different stages, right?

Keep in mind that prior to TMP the sound stages had largely been blocked off for Phase II, and for whatever reason they never really got released until the end of Enterprise.

But yes many of the sets, while completely redressed and frequently rebuilt, were more or less still standing through at least 3 of the 4 later shows. The TNG Ent D bridge became the Voyager bridge. The 2 story engineering stage remained common throughout the 3 TNG era shows and the movies, only changing for Enterprise. The movie bridge became the Battle Bridge, numerous other ship bridges and I think eventually the Defiant. (I could be wrong on that last one).

For Enterprise they used the same soundstages, but shuffled around which sets got put where in order to shake things up. Hence Enterprises Engineering was more horizontal than the prior shows.

I suspect a large part of it was some of the unusual geometries used for the core ST sets. Think about the traditional bridge layout that we are so used to. That circular almost amphitheater like set. It's cliched to us now, but really it was new and distinct. And very purpose built. It's not a spatial geometry that you would see adapted much to other TV or film projects. So the Star Trek sets most likely were left sit, largely because the space they occupied was designed to hold those Star Trek sets, and the space itself did not work well or adapt easily to other projects.

 

[Maurice]

A lot of it has to do with the rigging overhead with all the catwalks and set pieces which are hung from on high. That's not something you tear down if you don't have to (and why the TNG and Voyager sets only slightly rearranged the TMP set pieces). Also, movie sets are designed to be easily struck (taken down) or tossed, but many of the TMP sets were originally built for the Star Trek [Phase] II series, and thus were standing sets, meaning expected to be used for possibly years, and likely not intended to be dismantled and stored.

 

[Griffeytrek]

A lot of it has to do with the rigging overhead with all the catwalks and set pieces which are hung from on high. That's not something you tear down if you don't have to (and why the TNG and Voyager sets only slightly rearranged the TMP set pieces). Also, movie sets are designed to be easily struck (taken down) or tossed, but many of the TMP sets were originally built for the Star Trek [Phase] II series, and thus were standing sets, meaning expected to be used for possibly years, and likely not intended to be dismantled and stored.

Exactly. While the cosmetic "what we see on screen" such as the colors, textures and dressing will change all the time. The core of the "sets" is the supporting infrastructure and rigging. The infrastructure of those sets was designed to support those very unusual Star Trek shapes and environments. Just think of how the modular circular bridge sets have to work. Between lighting, support, moving parts and specialized camera angles. It's not something that you could just flip over to film a sitcom on. The filming support needs would be very different.

Those more or less permanent sets were both Star Treks greatest strength, and one of its biggest limitations. They had already been built, so it made TNG, DS9, Voyager and even Enterprise far more cost effective and economical to make. It can legitimately be argued that nobody would have taken the risks on the shows if those resources had not already been bought and paid for. But by the same token the limitations of the physical sets do cause some of the limitations of what we can see and where can we go? Why do all Federation Bridges and Engineering rooms look so alike? Well because that's the physical limitation they have to work with. They justify it via lore and backstory, but at the end of the day, the space they have to work with is the space they have to work with, and no amount of paint, glue, glitter or Okudagrams is going to change that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I wonder if Series VI could get away with an entirely digital production (i.e. no sets of any kind, everything rendered via CGI), like what nuBSG did with Blood & Chrome.

 

[Maurice]

Ick. Blood and Chrome looked terrible.

 

[Griffeytrek]

I wonder if Series VI could get away with an entirely digital production (i.e. no sets of any kind, everything rendered via CGI), like what nuBSG did with Blood & Chrome.

Generally that ends up looking awful. Plus actors for the most part do not do well outside of some physical space (see Star Wars, Prequels). Yes in theory acting does not require anything but the actor. But honestly having something to act against helps, and ST's budget does not often allow for the higher caliber types, especially as supporting or guests, that will do well with nothing but a green screen and a tennis ball on a stick to act against. Heck Sir Ian McKellan can arguably called one of the worlds better living actors, and he suffered some serious meltdowns due to having nothing to work with but green screens and virtually stuff on The Hobbit movies. "Jake from Central Casting" ends up looking like a guy caught on security camera footage.

I'm sure they will attempt to cheat things somewhat, but for the core recurring areas nothing beats a physical set.

 

[cardinal biggles]

The movie bridge became the Battle Bridge, numerous other ship bridges and I think eventually the Defiant. (I could be wrong on that last one).

IIRC, DS9 used soundstages that hadn't been used by Trek before, at least not on a permanent basis, so everything was new built. It was PII/the movies, TNG, and VOY that had the shared layout.

For Enterprise they used the same soundstages, but shuffled around which sets got put where in order to shake things up. Hence Enterprises Engineering was more horizontal than the prior shows.

The reshuffling of set positions on ENT had less to do with shaking things up and more to do with the underlying infrastructure being in poor condition after standing for almost a quarter-century (from pre-production on Phase II in 1977 to the end of Voyager in 2001).

 

[Griffeytrek]

This is an only marginally related question, but while we are talking about the Saratoga's bridge has anyone mapped out the ships bridge from it's last appearance? In DS9's pilot Emissary? (and yes yes I know the registry changed. But it was still a very old Miranda. It doesn't seem likely they would build a new one of those to slap the same name on. More than likely Sisco's ship was the same original hull seen in ST IV, just reclassified following a major overhaul and rebuild. It's not like Star Fleet registries have ever made any actual sense.). The few bridge scenes there would look to be using that similar ST III approach of moving things closer and tighter together, while using 2-3 of the consoles with Okudagrams and some TNG style helm consoles. Am I imagining it or does there seem to be a bit more texturing and angling to the bridge modules than was normal on TNG? They also kept the shots extremely tight and would appear to have only used 2 or 3 consoles.

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