MeTV's SuperSci-Fi Saturday Night

[RJDiogenes]

How about:

The mass exists as gamma radiation in Banner's body and that small part of what he has absorbed changes to mass during transformation (and vice versa).

The problem with that is that you need a biological process that can change gamma radiation to matter and back again, and that the gamma radiation has to know what kind of matter to become-- as in complex cells and so forth. The implications of that go far beyond a guy turning green and muscular, so you'd have to really change the types of stories told or just hand-wave it away.

Same for Thing, Ben Grimm, and cosmic radiation (although the Thing I remember from my comics days couldn't transform back and forth; has that changed?)

I don't really know. I gave up on Marvel during Civil War. I think I've heard that they did away with the FF.

 

[Vandervecken]

The problem with that is that you need a biological process that can change gamma radiation to matter and back again, and that the gamma radiation has to know what kind of matter to become-- as in complex cells and so forth. The implications of that go far beyond a guy turning green and muscular, so you'd have to really change the types of stories told or just hand-wave it away.


I don't really know. I gave up on Marvel during Civil War. I think I've heard that they did away with the FF.

Aren't complexities of this kind implied in these superhero cellular biologies that transform bodies? Like Colossus--we have to assume complexity of this sort was built into his genome, and wouldn't there have to be an intermediate energetic step between his normal human flesh's matter and organic metal matter (whatever that is--maybe he is really a carbon alloy). Banner is a full-body somatic mutation. But matter to matter or energy to energy, it'd require lots of information coding for sure.

Ie, hand wave.

 

[Admiral2]

Same for Thing, Ben Grimm, and cosmic radiation (although the Thing I remember from my comics days couldn't transform back and forth; has that changed?)

I don't really know. I gave up on Marvel during Civil War. I think I've heard that they did away with the FF.

Yes they cancelled the FF, which I find highly annoying.

Interesting thing about the Thing: During John Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four it was stated that Ben's inability change from the Thing to Ben and back was caused by a psychological block. He should have been able to control his powers the way the others did, but for various reasons didn't, until the first Secret Wars mini series. Then he lost the ability for good in his own comic by "killing Ben Grimm."

 

[RJDiogenes]

Aren't complexities of this kind implied in these superhero cellular biologies that transform bodies? Like Colossus--we have to assume complexity of this sort was built into his genome, and wouldn't there have to be an intermediate energetic step between his normal human flesh's matter and organic metal matter (whatever that is--maybe he is really a carbon alloy). Banner is a full-body somatic mutation. But matter to matter or energy to energy, it'd require lots of information coding for sure.

Ie, hand wave.

There should be a movement in the Marvel Universe that uses these transformations as an argument for Intelligent Design. Or Stupid Design.

Yes they cancelled the FF, which I find highly annoying.

They'll probably bring them back as Fantastic Avengers.

Interesting thing about the Thing: During John Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four it was stated that Ben's inability change from the Thing to Ben and back was caused by a psychological block. He should have been able to control his powers the way the others did, but for various reasons didn't, until the first Secret Wars mini series. Then he lost the ability for good in his own comic by "killing Ben Grimm."

Yes, I remember that. John Byrne may be almost as screwed up as Frank Miller, but he had a really good grasp of the Marvel characters and the Marvel Universe.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I remember Byrne establishing that Ben was subconsciously blocking Reed's attempts to cure him, but not that Ben was supposed to be able to change back and forth at will...though maybe that was covered in the Thing's series, which I wasn't following.

 

[Christopher]

I remember Byrne establishing that Ben was subconsciously blocking Reed's attempts to cure him, but not that Ben was supposed to be able to change back and forth at will...though maybe that was covered in the Thing's series, which I wasn't following.

They always seemed to be inconsistent with that. I mentioned before that I was reading some of the earliest FF comics. There's one issue where Reed develops what he's convinced will be a permanent cure for Ben, but Ben refuses because he wants to be able to change back and forth at will; yet just a few issues later, Ben is suddenly eager for a permanent cure.

(It was intriguing how humorous those early issues were, by the way, with almost a Deadpool-level metatextuality in the way the FF constantly broke the fourth wall and talked about being comic-book characters. It was semi-justified by having their "real" adventures adapted to comics by an in-universe Lee and Kirby, but even so, it was remarkably self-referential, the same kind of humor that's treated as so "innovative" when Deadpool does it today. I mean, they actually did a story where Doctor Doom lures Reed into a trap by threatening Lee and Kirby and forcing them to call Reed to the Marvel office for a story conference. That's downright Pythonesque.)

 

[Zaku]

There should be a movement in the Marvel Universe that uses these transformations as an argument for Intelligent Design. Or Stupid Design.

Didn't they say that mutations (X-Men) and mutated humans (FF, Spider-man) are a result of the tampering with the human DNA by the Celestials?
[searching...]

Celestials

What is known is that they have visited the Earth at four different periods in the Earth's past, each time altering the course of history. The first Celestial Host came to Earth approximately one million years ago to perform genetic tests and experimentation on Earth's highest lifeform, the nascent human being. Testing the versatility of human genes, the First Host created two sub-species of humanity, the Eternals and the Deviants. Their sole legacy to the mainstream human race was the implantation of a dormant DNA complex which would one day permit benevolent mutations.

 

[Admiral2]

I remember Byrne establishing that Ben was subconsciously blocking Reed's attempts to cure him, but not that Ben was supposed to be able to change back and forth at will...though maybe that was covered in the Thing's series, which I wasn't following.

It was covered in both the FF and the Thing series.

The first mention of Ben's psychological block was in the Byrne FF story Childhood's End, where Franklin's mutant powers transform him into a godlike adult. Before he changes back to a kid, he tries to use his power to change Ben back for good, but read's Ben's mind and finds out that Ben thinks Alicia Masters only loves him as the Thing and the emotional shock would be just as bad as when he first transformed, so instead he just changed the Thing's outward appearance.

Secret Wars came after that, and Ben decided to stay on the war planet because he began to change at will and he thought that was the only place he could do it. Then after he came back to Earth, it was in an issue of Thing that Reed finally told him he could always have done it if he'd wanted to.

 

[Greg Cox]

I don't really know. I gave up on Marvel during Civil War. I think I've heard that they did away with the FF.

I believe the series was cancelled, but the characters are still around. The Thing is guest-starring in THE SILVER SURFER this very month.

 

[JD]

He's also a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy.

 

[Silvercrest]

There should be a movement in the Marvel Universe that uses these transformations as an argument for Intelligent Design. Or Stupid Design.

Mark Gruenwald had one of those in Quasar in 1991. He featured a being who could alter reality and who had, by way of such alterations, created all superheroes — individually, deliberately, and (most important) allegedly. The story also featured that being's nemesis, who liked to uncreate things. How much of this was the truth was intentionally left up in the air, though.

But it's certainly an argument that there was an Intelligent Designer. (Or a Stupid Designer, considering Quasar's new costume in the same issue.)

 

[RJDiogenes]

Didn't they say that mutations (X-Men) and mutated humans (FF, Spider-man) are a result of the tampering with the human DNA by the Celestials?

Interesting. I never paid that much attention to the Celestials.

Then after he came back to Earth, it was in an issue of Thing that Reed finally told him he could always have done it if he'd wanted to.

Which makes sense in retrospect-- none of the others ever had any trouble changing back and forth.

I believe the series was cancelled, but the characters are still around. The Thing is guest-starring in THE SILVER SURFER this very month.

Sounds like they broke up the team, though. So they probably will bring them back as Fantastic Avengers-- in an EVENT.

Mark Gruenwald had one of those in Quasar in 1991. He featured a being who could alter reality and who had, by way of such alterations, created all superheroes — individually, deliberately, and (most important) allegedly. The story also featured that being's nemesis, who liked to uncreate things. How much of this was the truth was intentionally left up in the air, though.

I used to read that book and I have no memory of that whatsoever. Maybe I had dropped it at that point. Or my maybe my brain reached its capacity for comic-book knowledge in the 80s.

 

[Silvercrest]

They were called "Origin" and "the Unbeing". Maybe the Unbeing unmade the story so you wouldn't remember it. Could be part of a nefarious plot....

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I figured Ben couldn't revert to human form because he lost the Thing Ring.

 

[Admiral2]

I figured Ben couldn't revert to human form because he lost the Thing Ring.

Nah, that was the teenage ben in the cartoon with the Flintstones.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Nah, that was the teenage ben in the cartoon with the Flintstones.

What, that's not canon?

 

[Admiral2]

What, that's not canon?

Don't know. I don't think Marvel ever addressed that issue...

But I would guess no because Hanna Barbera is now owned by Warner Brothers and that would give the competition more control of the FF than they already have (The 1967 cartoon).

 

[RJDiogenes]

^^ They'd have to make it a Thing Nose Ring for the Millennial Generation.

They were called "Origin" and "the Unbeing". Maybe the Unbeing unmade the story so you wouldn't remember it. Could be part of a nefarious plot....

Whoa, meta. I should be getting royalties for not remembering that story.

 

[Silvercrest]

^^ They'd have to make it a Thing Nose Ring for the Millennial Generation.

Yes, but then he'd have to punch himself in the face every time he transformed. "Thing Ring, do your th-- OW!"

 

[Mr. Adventure]

^^ They'd have to make it a Thing Nose Ring for the Millennial Generation.

Could be worse, the Thing Ding-a-Ling Ring comes to mind.

And for the record, any post I make about the Thing Ring shouldn't be taken too seriously.