Star Wars: The Force Awakens Discussion (HERE THERE BE SPOILERS)

[TRON JA307020]

they were supposed to be bad at it. that was the entire point.

Though I wonder why Kylo is so bad when a) he trained at the Jedi Academy and b) he's been working for Snoke for years. Apparently Snoke hasn't bothered to give him any training and is only going to start now (?!).

Kylo really sucked. He was taught by Luke and he obviously retained none of it. Finn clumsily kept up with him and he never had any lightsaber training. I still say the battle looked like two kids playing outside acting like they were playing swords or in this instance lightsabers.

 

[Ithekro]

They look like people trying to either kill each other or defend themselves with what they had. Unlike the fancy choreographed fights were they don't always look like they are trying to kill each other, but trying to hit the other's saber exactly where the saber should be, rather than the person's body parts.

 

[Mr Light]

The only excuse I can generate is that Kylo was a) grief-stricken at killing his father and b) severely injured from a gut shot and was barely capable of standing on his feet, let alone use proper fencing form.

 

[cooleddie74]

The gut shot from Chewbacca's bowcaster must be a big part of the explanation. Kylo does repeatedly punch his wound in attempts to stop the pain and he is losing blood during the fights with both Finn and Rey. He's clearly off his game and not as focused and effective as he would have been had Chewie not wounded him.

And the silent grief and shock explanation also makes at least some sense. He had just murdered his own father and he'd already been experiencing conflicting emotions before Han arrived at Starkiller Base, so if you combine the cold-blooded killing of one of his own parents with being shot just a few moments later it's no surprise that Kylo would be so sloppy and unfocused when dueling with the other heroes.

 

[UssGlenn]

they were supposed to be bad at it. that was the entire point.

Though I wonder why Kylo is so bad when a) he trained at the Jedi Academy and b) he's been working for Snoke for years. Apparently Snoke hasn't bothered to give him any training and is only going to start now (?!).

I was reading a theory about Rey and Kylo yesterday that theorized that Kylo doesn't have as much training time with Luke as we think. We've all been assuming that he trained with Luke for several years, starting when he was very young. But what if Han and Leia didn't send him to Luke until he was in his teens? I'm sure there are multiple justifications that could be used. Anyway, in this scenario he and Rey have about the same amount of training, and Kylo is pissed that this girl who is about 6 years old is better at it than he is. In the end, though, he can't bring himself to let her be killed during his Massacre, wipes her memory and drops her on Jakku.

 

[Kor]

Kylo had a bit more flare than the others with the way he swung the lightsaber.

Kor

 

[JD]

The gut shot from Chewbacca's bowcaster must be a big part of the explanation. Kylo does repeatedly punch his wound in attempts to stop the pain and he is losing blood during the fights with both Finn and Rey. He's clearly off his game and not as focused and effective as he would have been had Chewie not wounded him.

And the silent grief and shock explanation also makes at least some sense. He had just murdered his own father and he'd already been experiencing conflicting emotions before Han arrived at Starkiller Base, so if you combine the cold-blooded killing of one of his own parents with being shot just a few moments later it's no surprise that Kylo would be so sloppy and unfocused when dueling with the other heroes.

That was my interpretation of the way he fought. I have a feeling if he was at 100% Rey and Finn probably wouldn't have stood a chance. I got the impression that he knew how to fight, but his injury limited what he could do at the time.

 

[Ithekro]

Kylo uses what looks to be a mix of Luke's style in Return of the Jedi, with the spins that Obi-wan and Anakin use to do while adjusting their hand positioning. The brute force hacking suits the broadsword look of his lightsaber.

However I wonder if Luke really trained his students in lightsaber combat, or if he focused on skills and how to feel the force. He might have only given them the basics like he got from Obi-wan, and not much else. Enough to deflect blaster bolts, which is what they would be expected to face, not duel someone with a lightsaber. If the Sith are gone, like Luke would guess, he's not expect to need to train his students in how to fight blade to blade. Because who else would even have a lightsaber besides them? The Empire banned them, and Luke or others likely dealt with the remaining Dark Siders the Empire had in the first years of the Republic. Assuming any remained after Endor aside from Snoke, who we don't really know who he is yet.

 

[fireproof78]

Kylo really sucked. He was taught by Luke and he obviously retained none of it. Finn clumsily kept up with him and he never had any lightsaber training. I still say the battle looked like two kids playing outside acting like they were playing swords or in this instance lightsabers.

I don't know about that. As others have pointed out, Kylo is injured and emotionally unstable, which are not the best assets in a duel to the death.

Kylo uses what looks to be a mix of Luke's style in Return of the Jedi, with the spins that Obi-wan and Anakin use to do while adjusting their hand positioning. The brute force hacking suits the broadsword look of his lightsaber.

However I wonder if Luke really trained his students in lightsaber combat, or if he focused on skills and how to feel the force. He might have only given them the basics like he got from Obi-wan, and not much else. Enough to deflect blaster bolts, which is what they would be expected to face, not duel someone with a lightsaber. If the Sith are gone, like Luke would guess, he's not expect to need to train his students in how to fight blade to blade. Because who else would even have a lightsaber besides them? The Empire banned them, and Luke or others likely dealt with the remaining Dark Siders the Empire had in the first years of the Republic. Assuming any remained after Endor aside from Snoke, who we don't really know who he is yet.

That's an interesting idea. I wonder if Luke did focus more on studying the Force, and felt a sense of failure that his students were ill prepared to fight against other lightsabers?

 

[Set Harth]

Unlike the fancy choreographed fights were they don't always look like they are trying to kill each other, but trying to hit the other's saber exactly where the saber should be, rather than the person's body parts.

While arguably it may make a certain kind of sense to do so, this was my problem with much of the duel in ROTS. You have to really hunt for places in that fight where they actually look like they're trying to hit each other as opposed to aiming for the opponent's saber in a fairly obviously choreographed way.

 

[Mr Light]

Trying to go for a leg exposes yourself to a counter strike. The first rule of lightsaber combat is defense.

 

[Set Harth]

Especially if one is a master of Form 3...

 

[fireproof78]

While arguably it may make a certain kind of sense to do so, this was my problem with much of the duel in ROTS. You have to really hunt for places in that fight where they actually look like they're trying to hit each other as opposed to aiming for the opponent's saber in a fairly obviously choreographed way.

I agree. I think there are only a couple of real kill shots that I noticed. It's all far to epic and grand to feel like a fight for survival.

Which is why the complaint that it feels like kids fighting in the backyard rings a bit hollow to me. Regardless of how the fight is portrayed, the fighters are always trying to avoid actually hurting each other. It's not just lack of training, but a genuine fear of injuring the other party, so the blows are often held up and not full force.

In TFA, it's unrefined combat but I love the emotion and raw energy of the whole fight. They are not good at it, and they don't care. They are just trying to survive.

 

[cooleddie74]

The "kids fighting in the backyard" argument doesn't just ring hollow with me, it sounds silly. The duel between Kylo and Rey is the best lightsaber battle in a Star Wars film since the Duel of the Fates in The Phantom Menace and I'm glad it's not an overchoreographed light-and-dance show with a hundred spins and flips in the air just to look more exciting and dynamic. It's a lot more grounded and grittier than most of the lightsaber duels in the Prequels and I'm glad that Abrams wanted to scale back on the glossy theatrics of the fights in those films and make the battle a dirtier, more realistic-looking confrontation.

 

[fireproof78]

I was actually very impressed by how gritty the fight felt. There were several instances were I went "Yes!" mentally as they did something unique, such as Kylo using his crossguard during clash. There were grapples, and mistakes and all of it felt a bit less staged.

 

[Set Harth]

With the crossguard thing, for me it was less "Yes!" and more "OK, so that's what that thing's for."

 

[cooleddie74]

It was the most personal, intense and one-on-one lightsaber battle since Luke faced off against his father on Cloud City in ESB.

 

[Trekkin]

It reminded me of the duels in older Japanese films, like Kurosawa's samurai flicks. There's the shadows and the snow, but it was also the way Rey was slashing and blocking was really what reminded me of it. It looked less like a 'duel' (the 'flynning' from the OT and proto-wuxia from PT,) and more like a person desperately seizing opportunities to try and get a hit.


Maybe it's that gritty 'unpolished' look that others have mentioned.

 

[Mr Light]

I love TFA dearly, but the Prequel lightsaber fights were way better. But it works within the context of the story; these people didn't know what they're doing. In Ep8, after Rey and Kylo get their respective training, I want a much more "Prequel-y" fight

 

[fireproof78]

I love TFA dearly, but the Prequel lightsaber fights were way better. But it works within the context of the story; these people didn't know what they're doing. In Ep8, after Rey and Kylo get their respective training, I want a much more "Prequel-y" fight

Highlighted for emphasis. This is exactly the point, and it was the point that Lucas was trying to make with the OT vs. the PT fights. The PT is all about the Jedi at their height, while the OT is far more emotional, unpolished and imperfect. In my opinion, the "Duel of the Fates" battle in TPM was the best in the PT, with the battle in ROTJ the best in the OT. I am sure that the new trilogy will have its own "best of" fight when we get there

Also, if by "Prequel-y" fight you mean "Duel of the Fates" I'll take it. If it is "Battle of the Heroes" or something like that, I'll pass.