The merged and improved (?) KIC 8462852 thread

[Dryson]

I am seriously beginning to think that what caused the dims of KIC was a large asteroid belt similar to the Kuiper Belt that orbits between Mars and Jupiter. If this idea proves true then perhaps there would be a habitable planet within the Goldilocks Zone.

Asteroids in a belt similar to Kuiper would be of various sizes which could explain the many smaller dims in KIC prior to the 15% and then the 22%.

https://student.societyforscience.org/blog/eureka-lab/sizing-kuiper-belt

 

[Silvercrest]

The Kuiper Belt and the Asteroid Belt are not composed of the same kinds of objects. Which one are you trying to describe?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It takes Earth 13 hours transit across our Sun not orbit.

Again: when viewed FROM WHERE? Do you not understand what a "transit" is or are you assuming the transit event is viewed from a star several light years away?

There is no possible way that a comet would take 2.5 to 80 days to transit across KIC. Not even a large swarm of comets would cause a at minimum 2.5 day dim of KIC.

Unless it's in an elliptical orbit with an Earth-facing apopsis. Repeating yourself will not make you any less wrong.

A long period elliptical orbit would not take place within a five year time period like the events of KIC were recorded as being.

Of course it would. That's what lead the researchers to conclude it was a "swarm" of comets instead of a single large and highly active cometary cloud: multiple large objects on the same or very similar orbits transiting across the star at different times on a very oblique angle.

Besides if the objects causing the dim of KIC were comets then there would be other orbital bodies within the same solar system of KIC where the gravity of such planets would over time either break the large swarm of comets up or cause the large swarm of comets to break up and then fall into an orbital pattern around the planets the swarm would have come into contact with.

Which is, basically, how a "swarm of comets" comes to exist in the first place. It is approximately what happened to Shoemaker-Leavy just before it/they smashed into Jupiter and is believed to be the cause of several main belt asteroid families whose parent bodies were broken apart by gravitational interaction.

The orbit of this comet cluster probably isn't all that stable to begin with and we would be lucky to encounter it on the same trajectory again, if at all. There's a strong possibility that this was a one-off event that isn't going to repeat in the near future.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Comets orbit in the same plane and direction of planets.

Halley's comet doesn't. It is both retrograde -- going in the opposite direction of all the other planets -- and has an orbit significantly angled to the ecliptic.

Many comets in orbital resonance with Neptune.

Again, the vast majority of them are not.

Again, if the outer planets did not exist then Earth would have been exposed to a series of encounters with comets and asteroids that would've wiped out life on earth.

Yes, primarily because Jupiter's strong gravity tends to attract comets and asteroids AWAY from the inner solar system and pull them into more stable, circular orbits (e.g. the asteroid belt). If Tabby's star doesn't have a large gas giant in its outer solar system, its inner orbits could have a higher than expected density of comets and planetesimals in unstable orbits.

More than enough instances where comets have their orbits affected by planets in the same solar system.
So if the large swarm of comets did cause the dims of KIC because of the size and amount of comets needed to create the dims of KIC then there could possible be a an Oort type cloud as well as similar Kuiper Belt in KIC as well.

It's believed that kuiper belt formations are common around MOST star systems, actually, so this wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[Silvercrest]

I suggest all of you start doing research instead of saying that everyone does not know what they are writing about. Because its obvious you just want to wish you know what you are talking about.

Then post something about Kepler's Laws using links instead of just posting because thats all you ever do is just post without providing links to what you are posting.

Sorry, tovarisch, but the burden of proof is on you. That's how this works — the one making the outlandish claims has to back them up. That would be you. If you're going to invoke Kepler's Laws or anything else in physics or astronomy, you need to do the research.

No one has to prove this stuff to you. It's already known and you've apparently decided to ignore it. That's your prerogative, but you have to recognize that it comes with a lot of baggage, to wit:
Everyone else is drawing on an established body of science. You are not. What you're doing is just spouting your personal understanding of these things and pretending it carries equal weight. It doesn't, especially when you misuse terms like "transit" that you obviously don't understand, and post links to theories that have been debunked, and then tune out when people correct you.

The references to aliens do not help your case.

Crazy Eddie is being perfectly reasonable here.

Okay, that doesn't sound right.

 

[Dryson]

You are not. What you're doing is just spouting your personal understanding of these things and pretending it carries equal weight. It doesn't, especially when you misuse terms like "transit" that you obviously don't understand,

Transit is the amount of time that it takes a planet or object to pass across in front of a Sun not an orbit.

Prove me wrong then with links instead of saying someone is wrong.

It's believed that kuiper belt formations are common around MOST star systems, actually, so this wouldn't surprise me at all.

Belief is not fact.

 

[Dryson]

Sorry, tovarisch, but the burden of proof is on you. That's how this works — the one making the outlandish claims has to back them up. That would be you. If you're going to invoke Kepler's Laws or anything else in physics or astronomy, you need to do the research.

No one has to prove this stuff to you. It's already known and you've apparently decided to ignore it. That's your prerogative, but you have to recognize that it comes with a lot of baggage, to wit:
Everyone else is drawing on an established body of science. You are not. What you're doing is just spouting your personal understanding of these things and pretending it carries equal weight. It doesn't, especially when you misuse terms like "transit" that you obviously don't understand, and post links to theories that have been debunked, and then tune out when people correct you.

The references to aliens do not help your case.

Crazy Eddie is being perfectly reasonable here.

Okay, that doesn't sound right.

Why don't you do some research yourself Crazy E instead of just saying something the opposite of what someone else says. I have provided the links to information that state the facts....none of you have.

 

[Dryson]

Halley's comet doesn't. It is both retrograde -- going in the opposite direction of all the other planets -- and has an orbit significantly angled to the ecliptic.

Then this might prove that Planet Nine exists otherwise Halley's would not have such an orbit unless there was a planet with a gravitational value causing Halley's to have a significantly angled and ecliptic orbit.

A sun is not the only factor involved with determining the orbit of a comet or planet for that matter. Without other larger planets in the solar system to help maintain cometary orbits the comet breaking free of the electromagnetic interaction of the Sun would simply careen off into space. As each planet interacts with the host Sun's EM field orbits are created. When two planetary bodies come close together there is an interaction between their charged particles that causes either a continued attraction or repulsion. Mostly subtle now the interactions between the planets in the Sol system was at one time similar to how a rack Pool Balls are broken during the onset of a Pool Game. Each pool ball transferring the energetic reaction to another pool ball causing it to spin in a various degree of tilt and rotation around its axis.

If the break of the pool balls at the onset of the break was able to be maintained then each pool ball would interact with the other balls and the bumpers in such a way that different orbits would be created where bounces off of the other pool balls would take place where faster moving pool balls would bump the slower pool balls away. If a Sun was present over time this interaction would coalesce into orbital patterns around each other.

So yes, a comets orbit IS determined by other planets in a solar system.

 

[Dryson]

Comets go around the Sun in a highly elliptical orbit. They can spend hundreds and thousands of years out in the depths of the solar system before they return to Sun at their perihelion. Like all orbiting bodies, comets follow Kepler's Laws - the closer they are to the Sun, the faster they move.

Its obvious that the objects transiting across KIC were not comets. Based on Kepler's Law if the objects had been comets even a large swarm of comets the swarm would had to have been close to KIC in order to sublimate causing cometary tails to form that would have caused the dim of KIC. Since Kepler's Law states that comets when closer to the Sun move faster and the recorded data shows transit days of 2.5 to 80 days then the objects causing the dims was not a large swarm of comets.

If the objects had been comets and did not come close to KIC causing sublimation to take place then it is likely that the swarm would not have been detected in the first place due to the fact that even a large swarm of comets would need to be grouped together and be around the size of Jupiter to be detected. A large swarm of comets not sublimating and not grouped would not cause a dim in the light of KIC 8462852.

 

[Dryson]

• A transit is the astronomical event that occurs when one celestial body appears to move across the face of another celestial body, hiding a small part of it, as seen by an observer at some particular vantage point. If the first celestial body hides a major part, or all of, the second celestial body, then it is an occultation rather than a transit.

Without a transit an occultation does not occur. A transit of a planet will still occur regardless if occultation is seen. If one were to look up at the Sun from underneath of it Jupiter would still transit across the Sun.

There are no such things as well established facts because those well established facts are simply the "Lazy Man's" way of saying that something is the same without putting for the effort to prove whether or not the fact is correct. The facts trying to be proven from 1500 light years away with mathematical formulas cannot determine such facts without being in KIC from a position of observation. Science is not simply math. You have to be able to observe the interactions close up. Measuring facts from a distance does not equate an establishment of fact.

I can say that I see a light blinking off and on in the distance but unless I am close up to the blinking light I will not be able to determine if it is a reflection from some other source, someone turning a light source off and on or a lightning bug.

This net centripetal force is the result of the gravitational force that attracts the planet towards the sun, and can be represented as

CERN has determined that gravity is a weak force. Meaning that Electromagnetism would be responsible for planetary interactions, including comets.

If Kepler is correct in that planets do not maintain a cometary orbit....then show me a single solar system where a single sun is located with a comet orbiting the sun. Show me a solar system where at least one planet and only one planet is present that has an orbiting comet as well.

 

[Dryson]

Five posts in succession? Isn't that spamming?

No I was breaking the post comments up so they could be replied to by section. If you look at the time of the posts as well there is definitely time in between each post where the posts were not back to back thus discounting them as Spam.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Why not just edit your earlier post?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Belief is not fact.

That is something you need to learn.

Eddie is right. The observer on Earth is the apex of an isosceles triangle, the sun is the side opposite. I time a pencil transiting the sun in front of my face at arms length, a matter of a moment. From Earth still, observe that pencil at the distance of Venus moving at the same rate, it will take considerably longer to transit the sun's surface.

No links required, just basic high school geometry resolves the question. Take some time to learn. Something. These tantrums that you pull don't help you. Especially, when it is over something like transits which a simple geometry text from fairly elementary mathematics resolves.

 

[Dryson]

The references to aliens do not help your case.
This is is saying the same thing as "The references to God not causing the apple to fall from the tree that hit you on the head does not help your case."

Those referring to aliens as not helping a case is in fact a self centered religious ideology that pertains to a notion of Earth being at the center of the Universe and that humanity based on religious belief of projecting its thought would create the same life that is on Earth. A superstition bound not only in absurdity but rather a lacking of even the basics of life sciences.

I would suggest alien interaction at KIC 8462852 because there are no other natural and established facts that prove otherwise.

 

[Dryson]

That is something you need to learn.

Eddie is right. The observer on Earth is the apex of an isosceles triangle, the sun is the side opposite. I time a pencil transiting the sun in front of my face at arms length, a matter of a moment. From Earth still, observe that pencil at the distance of Venus moving at the same rate, it will take considerably longer to transit the sun's surface.

No links required, just basic high school geometry resolves the question. Take some time to learn. Something. These tantrums that you pull don't help you. Especially, when it is over something like transits which a simple geometry text from fairly elementary mathematics resolves.

Then what caused the dims of KIC 8462852 then?

Everyone continues to say comets over and over again yet the recorded data does not prove comets.
The amount of comets it would take to create a dim of KIC WITHOUT creating a cometary tail based on sublimation would have to be the size of Jupiter.

Jupiter was discovered early on in the history of astronomy. It wasn't until 1979 that the Rings around Jupiter were discovered by Voyager 1

Being able to determine that the objects causing the dim of KIC as having been comets without the comets sublimating as well as saying that rings around a planet caused the dim as they transited across the surface of KIC would not be possible unless the size of the asteroids were the same as Jupiter.

....but perhaps what did happen based on the smaller dims taking place prior to the 15% dim of KIC is that several large planets the size of Jupiter with rings around them transited KIC at nearly the same time where not only the planets theirselves caused the dims but possibly the rings around the plants as well.

Let me draw a picture real quick to explain.

Here is an article on KIC - 11 that could pave the way to what took place in KIC 8462852.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I would suggest alien interaction at KIC 8462852 because there are no other natural and established facts that prove otherwise.

Then what caused the dims of KIC 8462852 then?

This is why people deride so much that you post. You've reached a conclusion that has no evidence to support it. Basically, you have said 'I can't explain it therefore aliens.'

 

[Silvercrest]

Those referring to aliens as not helping a case is in fact a self centered religious ideology that pertains to a notion of Earth being at the center of the Universe and that humanity based on religious belief of projecting its thought would create the same life that is on Earth.

Nice sentence structure.

I would suggest alien interaction at KIC 8462852 because there are no other natural and established facts that prove otherwise.

I would suggest "a wizard did it" at KIC 8462852 because there are no other natural and established facts that prove otherwise.

Everyone continues to say comets over and over again yet the recorded data does not prove comets.

Dryson continues to say aliens over and over yet the recorded data does not prove aliens.

You can't see the silliness of what you're writing, can you?

As long as you treat facts, your own bias, and outright fantasy as interchangeable, people are never going to take you seriously.

 

[{ Emilia }]

No I was breaking the post comments up so they could be replied to by section. If you look at the time of the posts as well there is definitely time in between each post where the posts were not back to back thus discounting them as Spam.

Don't make five posts in a row. The general rule here is that everything that's more than 3 is considered spamming.
Think about what you're actually trying to say before you post it. And if you really need to add something, there's an edit button.
Or just wait with posting until somebody else had the chance to reply to your earlier post.

This isn't up for discussion by the way.

 

[Dryson]

Nice sentence structure.


I would suggest "a wizard did it" at KIC 8462852 because there are no other natural and established facts that prove otherwise.


Dryson continues to say aliens over and over yet the recorded data does not prove aliens.

You can't see the silliness of what you're writing, can you?

As long as you treat facts, your own bias, and outright fantasy as interchangeable, people are never going to take you seriously.

People who discount aliens what-so-ever really have idea what being serious means but are simple minded people who believe what they think is real. So if they believe aliens do no not exist then aliens do not exist. NASA has already stated that Earth is part of the 8% of habitable planets that will exist within our Universe. If you want to feel alone in the Universe because you have a superficial ego then that is your problem and your issue to deal with. Human's exist so other life forms similar to humans will also exist. Being so naive that only one Earth like planet exists is the same as being naive to think that in 2016 the Earth is still flat and that everything has already been established and not changeable.

The reality of the Universe is not set in stone for the simple matter of fact that humans haven't even colonized the Moon. To establish facts about the entire Universe without even leaving the planet is the base of all senseless arguments. So quit playing on a fake reputation that you think that you have as well as trying to make others think a reputation will be ruined by discussing aliens being more intelligent than humans.

Because for the simple matter of fact there are planets out there in the Universe right now that reside in the 1% to 7% habitable planet range that would have been around a lot longer than Earth and humans would therefore have achieved the ability to create advanced mega structures to harvest the energy of a sun similar to KIC 8462852.

The link below is to an image where I have tried to convey how three Jupiter sized planets each having a ring orbiting them that when a chance alignment occurred that the dim could have been caused by the planets and the rings interlocking, not colliding or coming together but interlocking in such a manner where each object in the planets rings would block out an additional amount of light of KIC.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/wh5z5k2hhehpe8j/Ring_Comparison.png

 

[Gov Kodos]

People who discount aliens what-so-ever really have idea what being serious means but are simple minded people who believe what they think is real. So if they believe aliens do no not exist then aliens do not exist. NASA has already stated that Earth is part of the 8% of habitable planets that will exist within our Universe. If you want to feel alone in the Universe because you have a superficial ego then that is your problem and your issue to deal with.

No, this is simply clapping so Tinkerbell lives.