Aron Eisenberg (Nog) suspended from Facebook over Holocaust photos

[Jedi_Master]

I think many people at first, simply do not get my position or see it as 'racist' or something, I don't know why many it takes a long while before people get me mayb its because you see the secular movement has yet to take root in America...if you spoke to a secular Buddhist, a secular Jew or secular Christian or spoke with apostates, ex-muslims, atheists and agnostics you might get my position.
I support seperation of Church and State, meaning these people have a right to believe whatever Gods or God they want to believe in privately, they have freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom of thought, freedom of speech I do not however support the spread of these religions

Most people don't "get" the position you take in your posts, because the position doesn't make any sense, and contains elements that are bigoted, racist, and plain wrong.
Selectively quoting holy books and using those quotes to justify discrimination and hostility is behavior that historically leads to very bad things.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Good summary, but you are not getting to the basics; education is not at the root of it. The empowerment of women and reproductive control invariable raises the standard of living for all. Education, among other things, follows in the chain of consequences.

Thing is, change always comes from the bottom. If people know more, they question more and find better ways of changing the status quo, of which misogyny and racism and homophobia etc are part of. The empowerment of women will not be realised by those who are in power. I think it all goes hand in hand, really. I, for example - a white upper-middle-class cis-gendered and heterosexual woman - had some pretty misogynistic views when I was a teenager. Then, I started educating myself more and changed my opinions. But I have free access to education and am therefore able to form critical opinions and to think critically. Most people in poorer countries don't have that kind of luxury and are often kept away from means of learning to think freely deliberately (look at Saudi Arabia and how you can get whipped to death just by asking questions publicly).

Since we're talking about women's rights: even in the US, getting proper sex education can be a real chore, depending on the area; in those, there's a statistically higher rate of teenage pregnancies and STD proliferation than in others - because people don't know any better and are often fed deliberate misinformation by "moral" authorities such as school and church. It happens. The whole "abstinence" bullshit in place of body-positive biology lessons and access to birth control (again, connected to people having access to information)? That's a terrible thing and it does so much harm. You can't expect empowerment of the oppressed if the oppressed are barred from basic knowledge(-gaining) about their bodies - and that's just one example from a western democracy.

Human rights, social justice, education, democracy, access to health care, social and intergenerational mobility - they're all connected to and depend on each other.

@atlantalliance :
I guess I'm just opposed to vilifying one group of people instead of the unjust system that breeds ignorance and violence and bigotry. It's already been said that you can get as much hateful crap from the Bible, such as Leviticus telling the avid reader that they should hate those who wear different types of fabric at the same time.

On a side-note, this thread has taken on a strange tone. Tl;dr version: the world sucks and we need to stop hating on other religions.

 

[Squiggy]

What if its moderators slowly become a foreign team of Sharia-Law moderators? Is it still under no obligation to the citizens of the United States, Europe, Canada, Hong Kong and all those other people who give them company traffic, pay for its products and click on its adverts?

Legally? No.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Then, I started educating myself more and changed my opinions. But I have free access to education and am therefore able to form critical opinions and to think critically.

Just as an aside, what did this consist of? Not that I disagree with you, I am just always interested in how people get from A to B in terms of their intellectual development.

 

[atlantalliance]

Stop saying bigoted things, then.

Saying the Koran has violent, racist or even prejudiced passages against the Jewish and other peoples is not a 'bigoted' statement, it is a matter of fact
You know your Koran why don't you read us some more passages and tell us liberally how to reinterpret these continious acts of violence against Jews in the book?

I have nothing against muslims, I am for these people, I support them, I am for their human rights

I am a secular person so I am for the seperation of Church and State and only against Islamist preachers like you

@aa
It is clear to me that you are from the States, and, like all of us, enjoy freedom of expression and the right to say what you think.

I am not from the States dude, I have been in America, I have worked next to the people of the United States, I like the United States I respect its laws and Constitution. However I am not American.

 

[HIjol]

Edited for correction...and don't call me Dude.

@aa
I am very sorry and sad for your undoubtedly, deeply held feelings, beliefs and opinions. It is clear to me that you are familiar with the States, and, like all of us, enjoyed freedom of expression and the right to say what you thought when yiu were here. Not without consequence, of course, but those are just a few of the many freedoms and guaranteed rights we enjoy. Curiously enough, over One Million U.S. Soldiers have died in US wars. Not every single one died defending our way of life, but the vast majority did. (PBS NewsHour)

Over 1 million.

For many other reasons, yes, including terror, hatred and intolerance.

But, for us, in one way or another.

Does it occur to you that, from our bully pulpit of Freedom, you are espousing verbiage eerily similarly to that of the Groups and Peoples you have clear issue with.

I am not judging you, I respect and if called, would die for your right to express yourself.

But, maybe the Freedoms you enjoyed should be treated with a little more respect and decorum.

And, a little more "multi-perspective" research and informed, balanced viewpoint.

My purpose is not to criticize, it is, rather, to try to help and "teach". I cannot help it, I have been a teacher all my life.

If it is true what you say, and if it is true you have a valid outlook, is it productive to profess the same level of hate and intolerance as those you present and hold up as hateful and intolerant?

 

[Gov Kodos]

I have nothing against muslims, I am for these people, I support them, I am for their human rights

You're just not for their freedom of conscience and belief. We're aware of that.

 

[JWPlatt]

I am a secular person so I am for the seperation of Church and State...

Non-sequitur. Being religious does not automatically mean being in favor of a theocracy. The founders of the United States and framers of the constitution were religious, but had the wisdom and objectivity to understand the dangers of religious rule, thus the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

 

[BigJake]

I am for all people, I support the human rights of all nations on this planet but I am against the religions that divide us

You cannot be convincingly "against" something that you manifestly have no curiosity at all about beyond a smattering of canned, out-of-context quotes that you obviously got from hate sites.

This is what consistently outs Islamophobes as racist. Purveyors of religious critique are capable of curiosity, nuance, and actual thought when it comes to the religions they're critiquing. Purveyors of racist hate, when confronted with curiosity, nuance and actual thought, flip out... just like you've consistently done at Kodos. You're not here to critique any religious tradition, you're here to spam this board with hatred using "religious critique" as a thin excuse; and if you think you're pulling a fast one, you're badly mistaken. Your actions and rhetoric are visible as precisely what they are.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Just as an aside, what did this consist of? Not that I disagree with you, I am just always interested in how people get from A to B in terms of their intellectual development.

Oh, I moved to Germany and started going to uni, where I met this girl taking gender studies. We had a heated discussion about misogyny. She told me I was mistaken about everything I believed on the subject of women's rights. I was intrigued and got a book from the library by a 1970s feminist called Alice Schwarzer about women and their views on their own sexuality. It all went from there, really. I realised I was bigoted and wanted to change that. I decided to - and yes, I can now quote Green Day - question everything or shut up and be a victim of authority.

Imagine a woman wanting to educate herself like that in Saudi Arabia. No access to education equals no emancipation of women (or any oppressed group).

 

[JWPlatt]

Here are the main issues non-Muslims likely see with Islam:

• No central authority to agree on reformation or moderation of fundamentalism
• The death penalty for apostasy
• Jihad, the religious duty of Muslims to maintain the religion, sometimes said to be universal warfare against infidels or non-believers (non-Muslims) who will not convert
• Subjugation of women and accusations that the Quran encourages husbands to chastise, beat or whip wives
• Islam considers itself is the final and only true religion
• Violence to induce fear against free speech representations of Muhammad and other such offenses
• Shariah as a sovereign entity above the indigenous legal system (e.g., replaces United States law for Muslims)

Short answers to address these concerns, without expansive and diluting qualifiers, would go a long way to reducing the paranoia about any perceived inherent Islamic threats against those who would otherwise prefer to live in peaceful acceptance and coexistence.

 

[cooleddie74]

Thanks to certain trolls for turning a thread about free speech and social media into a rant and diatribe about one specific religion and group of people to the exclusion of all others.

You know who else liked to do that?

 

[{ Emilia }]

Thanks to certain trolls for turning a thread about free speech and social media into a rant and diatribe about one specific religion and group of people to the exclusion of all others.

You know who else liked to do that?

Donald Trump?

 

[cooleddie74]

Sehr gut.

 

[BigJake]

No central authority to agree on reformation or moderation of fundamentalism

Faiths rarely have any such thing, and where such a "central authority" existed it would become the instant focus of vicious conspiracy theories (cf. the Papacy and anti-Catholicism). Red herring.

The death penalty for apostasy

Controversial and on the wane in the Muslim world because of its being at odds with the religion's other creeds against compulsion in religion. Anyone claiming it as an essential part of Islam is "oversimplifying" or outright lying.

Jihad, the religious duty of Muslims to maintain the religion, sometimes said to be universal warfare against infidels or non-believers (non-Muslims) who will not convert

Jihad in real terms, in the minority of cases where it refers to actual warfare at all, rarely amounts to much more than any other culture's concept of "just war" in self-defense or against tyranny (like so), except in the hands of kooks like ISIS and Boko Haram who are universally condemned in the Muslim world. Red herring.

Subjugation of women and accusations that the Quran encourages husbands to chastise, beat or whip wives

Sexism is obviously a real issue for Islam but not one that can or will be solved by blanket hostility to the entire faith; people advocating blanket hostility likely do not really care about this issue as much as they like to claim. [The supposed concern in many Islamophobic quarters with "subjugation of women" is visibly just a pretext, for instance, not any form of genuine feminism, as evinced by the fact that their most common means of addressing visible signs of "subjugation" like the hijab is to attempt to control and police women's bodies and choices instead of, say, bothering to find out what actual Muslim feminists recommend as solutions to these problems.]

Islam considers itself is the final and only true religion

Red herring. Many forms of Judaism, Christianity and other faiths consider themselves to be the "true religion." Claiming this is a bigger problem for Islam -- one of the very few faiths whose scriptures actually enjoin its followers to religious tolerance -- is a simple lie.

Violence to induce fear against free speech representations of Muhammad and other such offenses

Red herring, mostly.The vast majority of Muslims have nowt to do with "violence to induce fear against free speech representations." Moreover the "free speech representations of Muhammad" often crying their victimry to the skies in these cases are often Der Sturmer-style racist caricatures specifically intended to demonize and intimidate Muslims. That some Muslims react badly to this -- in a world where such caricatures are helping to drive actual bombing and murder and invasion of many of their home countries -- is not at all surprising, whether or not one sees the reaction itself as constructive (obviously I'd prefer everyone found an alternative to violence, and the advocacy of violence).

Shariah as a sovereign entity above the indigenous legal system (e.g., replaces United States law for Muslims)

Red herring except as regards outlier cases like Saudi Arabia -- whose system is an isolated one, despite its prominence -- or the bandit territories of movements like ISIS. Sharia is not a "sovereign entity" even in an Islamic revolutionary republic like Iran. Beliefs that it is attempting to replace the United States constitution, or any other are generally pure conspiracy theory designed around classic "fitfh column" xenophobia narratives.

Basically none of the typical objections to "Islam" are valid excuses for promoting blanket hostility to the religion, any more than there are valid excuses for promoting blanket hostility to Christianity or Judaism. That many people imagine Islam to be a valid target of hate rhetoric they would instantly recognize as vile directed at anyone else is not a function of religious critique in any way, it's simply an incurious willingness to think according to preconceived stereotypes whose relationship with the actual religion is at best elliptical.

 

[Kor]

Facebook is a joke.

Somebody was suspended from FB because he posted a picture of a Star Wars action figure that he purchased from Wal-Mart, which Wal-Mart accidentally sold to the public a couple months before they were supposed to.

This particular action figure supposedly potentially spoiled a scene in the movie, and Disney then (mis)used the DMCA to get the picture taken down and get him suspended from Facebook.

It looks like the things I learned about DIsney from my mass communication professor were true.

Kor

 

[JWPlatt]

Faiths rarely have any such thing, and where such a "central authority" existed it would become the instant focus of vicious conspiracy theories (cf. the Papacy and anti-Catholicism). Red herring.

I would posit that most faiths have a hierarchy of authority or a way to reach consensus without one. There is a significant challenge for Muslims in that they cannot refute the unfavorable perceptions, as you have here, without a global consensus. Efforts to say what Islam is, or is not, even when so-called representatives appear in the media, remain highly anecdotal, fractured, or unorganized.

 

[BigJake]

^ I'd say it has these problems to about the same degree Protestant Christianity or Hinduism have. (Possibly less so, actually, given Islam's traditions of scholarly religious jurisprudence and the body of clear commentary on its scriptures -- usually completely ignored by hostile parties -- that it provides.) Islam's problem is not about hierarchical structure, it's that at this moment in history, the circumstances of the predominantly-Islamic world are difficult and fraught.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Facebook is a joke.

Somebody was suspended from FB because he posted a picture of a Star Wars action figure that he purchased from Wal-Mart, which Wal-Mart accidentally sold to the public a couple months before they were supposed to.

This particular action figure supposedly potentially spoiled a scene in the movie, and Disney then (mis)used the DMCA to get the picture taken down and get him suspended from Facebook.

It looks like the things I learned about DIsney from my mass communication professor were true.

Kor

I barely recognized it since its beauty had not graced thine eyes since antiquity, but verily, this appears to be the actual topic of the thread.

Remember when this was a quaint thread about Facebook's irrational censorship of Holocaust images because of nudity and not about certain poster's holy war against Muslims, "Islamist preachers" like Gov. Kodos (still trying to work that one out), and biased non-liberal regressive leftists mods like me? Yeah, let's get back to that. It would be unfair if I had to close down the OPs thread because it got derailed by others with a one-note agenda.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

You're absolutely right. I apologise for my own thread-derailing.

Facebook policies make me Hulk out! See? Back on topic.

...seriously though, they do.

Can we go back to the old-school hip-hop? That was rad.