The merged and improved (?) KIC 8462852 thread

[{ Emilia }]

Are you an idiot?

I would think "Attack the post, not the poster" is a pretty easy rule to follow. Your question was a pretty unambiguous flame. Infraction for Flaming. Comments to PM.
Adding a question mark to it doesn't make it any less obvious.

Dryson is wrong about many things in this thread. It's easy enough to ignore his nonsense and have a conversation about the actual topic with the other posters in this thread.

 

[Dryson]

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/curious-case-of-kic-8462852-102020155/

In this article the discussion involves the fact that the dim in KIC was not caused by an asteroid breaking up nor was the dim in KIC caused by comets breaking up either.

So why are clouds grey during the wintertime? Because the temperature is much colder causing water in the clouds to freeze not completely but enough to trap dust and other solid matter in the frozen water that blocks out a certain percentage of light passing through the cloud itself.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/curious-case-of-kic-8462852-102020155/

Clouds in the atmosphere like a cometary tail would have frozen dust in the water that would block out some of the sunlight.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

With a longer time series and observations made at multiple frequencies, my hope is that a natural explanation will eventually be forthcoming that doesn't invoke LGM. This was the case for J1407, which turned out to be quite interesting.

http://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/gigantic-ring-system-around-j1407b/

 

[Dryson]

With a longer time series and observations made at multiple frequencies, my hope is that a natural explanation will eventually be forthcoming that doesn't invoke LGM.

This was the case for J1407, which turned out to be quite interesting.

http://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/gigantic-ring-system-around-j1407b/

I was thinking around a large ring in the system myself. With a four day transit at times of the object across KIC the objects must be orbiting something larger maybe a planet the size of Jupiter that has an orbit that comes in close enough to the sun for the rings to block out light but is still to far away for the dust to detected.

From the data I have read the transits range from 2.5 to 5 days. That means that the objects have varrying orbital velocities around KIC.

Bust the dust issue is still there that unless all of the dust had formed into planetesimals then it would have showed up.

A ring is still a good thought. I would have check the other suns that are close to KIC for a potential "roller coaster" type ring that might pass back and forth between suns passing close to KIC. Sorta like Dosey Doe swing your partner round and round.

 

[Silvercrest]

How many centuries would it take to go from one star to the other? And back?

 

[Dryson]

How many centuries would it take to go from one star to the other? And back?

Well I guess that rules out the "Loopty Loo Roller Coaster Ring Idea."

Maybe a gravity fling.

Still if the objects were related to a large ring network then a planet the size of Jupiter would have to be present given the transits across KIC are between 2.5 and five days in length.

What if something else took place instead?

"Demon Drop"

Lets say an asteroid belt like the one we have in our solar system between Mars and Jupiter was present in KIC. Could a large enough collision between asteroids in the belt itself cause KIC to dim but not show any signs of IR associated with such a collision due to the distance between KIC and the potential asteroid belt?

 

[Dryson]

Understanding Transits - https://www.facebook.com/NASAsKeple...8399218208571/828703350511484/?type=3&theater

In the image link above you will see many transits. One similarity you will see in all of the confirmed planetary transits in Blue is that the transit forms a U. While other signals not associated with a planet in Red, form spear like points. Most of the transits from KIC that caused the dims were spear like points.

You will also notice that most of the transit times, bottom of the page, don't even make it to a full day. The objects of KIC transiting across KIC took on average 2.5 to 5.0 days. The White Pillow Looking Kitty might be correct that the objects could have in fact have been rings from a planet that come close to KIC as the home planet orbits closer to KIC.

I was reading recently how NASA found the largest solar system with a planet orbiting its sun 600,000,000,000 miles away. When I find the article link I will post it.

Maybe the objects are caught between two suns similar to the 600 billion mile planet and continue to gather other debris in their orbit that would create its own gravity but would not form together as a planet would. Think of a large swarm of comets but asteroid based instead.

 

[PurpleBuddha]

Lets say an asteroid belt like the one we have in our solar system between Mars and Jupiter was present in KIC. Could a large enough collision between asteroids in the belt itself cause KIC to dim but not show any signs of IR associated with such a collision due to the distance between KIC and the potential asteroid belt?

I like this suggestion. It seems more plausible to me than a comet swarm.

 

[Dryson]

I was reading and article about Coronal Holes this morning.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...iant-holes-one-covering-10-solar-surface.html

There are no signs of dust or ice particles nor are there any IR indications of collisions.

The Ring Network is the second best choice with Coronal Holes being the first.

If we make it past the Coronal Holes then it has to be extraterrestrial in nature.

When we come to day 1540 on the timeline of KIC there is a mirrored transit event that takes place. From the data I looked through transits don't mirror their self.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Ah, the Daily Fail -- that well-regarded source of science information.

"It is the second time Nasa has spotted a huge hole on the sub."

 

[Dryson]

Ah, the Daily Fail -- that well-regarded source of science information.

"It is the second time Nasa has spotted a huge hole on the sub."

I'm certain the OP meant to write Sun. Then again maybe a submarine traveling through the ocean of the sun is what he meant.

"We all live in a yellow submarine..."

 

[Dryson]

From the Corona Hole article - Each time a coronal hole rotates by the Earth we can measure the particles flowing out of the hole as a high-speed stream, another source of space weather.

There could have been two solar flares present on either side of the 15% dim that would explain the increase in brightness where after the first solar flare a coronal hole formed followed by another solar flare.

Hopefully what we are witnessing on KIC is some indentcation that a habitable planet with life on it is orbiting KIC perhaps with its own ring of stellar debris orbiting the planet where the habitable planet has figured out how to harness the energy of their sun to power colonies that are further out in the their Universe. If it can be somehow proven that Earth might have something to do with causing a coronal hole then template for such an interaction can be used with KIC.

 

[Silvercrest]

If we make it past the Coronal Holes then it has to be extraterrestrial in nature.

It's already extraterrestrial in nature.

 

[Dryson]

Here is something interesting that happened to me today. I was driving home from work and and came over the top of a hill. The Sun was right in line with where I was looking and blinded me. While looking at the Sun I noticed that when I looked away real quick or blinked I could see a perfect circular outline of the Sun. Needless to say I every time that I blinked I could then see black circles or dark spots where the sun had temporarily burned an image into my eyes that went away after about five minutes. What was interesting is that the burned image of the sun had five distinct locations of where I had moved my eyes to try and avoid the direct sunlight. In fact the positioning looked like a transit image with two of the burns being side by side. I thought it was interesting to say the least.

 

[Dryson]

Transit data - Earth takes 13 hours to transit across the Sun, Jupiter takes 33 hours. Saturn between 30 and 38 hours.
Neptune takes about 42 hours to transit.

As you can see the distance from KIC to the objects that made the transit across KIC which was 2.5 up to 5.0 days in transit would start somewhere around Neptune and end up further out than Pluto.

If the objects had been a large swarm of comets their transits would have increased the closer they came to KIC instead of staying within the range of 2.5 to 5.0 days.

Here is another chart - http://www.skyandtelescope.com/wp-content/uploads/KIC-8462852-plots1.jpg

The chart with 500 days shows us something very interesting. Between the first dim of 15% and the 22% there is approximately 700 days that pass. That would put the swarm of objects closer to an orbit around KIC similar to Mars around our Sun. But if the orbit is that close to KIC then the transits of the objects would take somewhere between 13 to 17 hours to transit and not 2.5 to 5.0 days. Its almost as if there was something controlling the transit of the objects around KIC manually.

What ever the object is it is big and slow. It has an orbital time of influences of up to 700 plus days comparable to a Martian orbit yet has a transit value of a planet that is somewhere between the distance of Neptune and Pluto from KIC.

 

[publiusr]

I like this suggestion. It seems more plausible to me than a comet swarm.

I do too. It wasn't long ago folks thought there was a planet Vulcan within Mercury's orbit.

This turned out not to be true--but there were observations of some objects--comets or asteroids) that didn't survive.

Something similar--just with more debris--may be taking place there.

 

[Dryson]

Okay lets put this frame into the projector and see how it looks.

We have dims of KIC 8462852 that start out very small in the beginning that over the course of 800 days or 2.19 years transit across the surface of KIC. At day 800 the 15% dim occurs. Then for the next 700 days or 1.91 years relatively the same dims recorded before the 15% take place. Then at day 1540 the 22% dim starts to take place and lasts for close to 35 days.

What it looks like is there might be a planet with an orbital value of having an elliptical orbit around KIC based on the time between each dim being between 1.91 and 2.19 years. Possibly the elliptical orbit value orbiting KIC about .91 to 1.19 years further than Earth.

This would put the orbit of the objects at a little past the orbit of Mars at 1.88 years compared to 1.91 years for the 15% dim and then .28 years further for the 22% dim . I would have to say that something is definitely orbiting KIC that is very large that is not a swarm of comets but could be a swarm of debris orbiting a Super Earth that has cleared out all of the smaller debris in it's path. Based on the objects orbital value from KIC 8462852 the objects are within the Goldilocks Zone from KIC. The transits however are still odd where the objects take between 2.5 to 5.0 days to transit across KIC. It only takes Jupiter 33 hours to transit across the Sun. These objects are taking days to transit and are closer to KIC.

There weren't any IR signatures that would tell that tale of an impact nor was there any signs of cometary tails or dust that would have glowed as it transited KIC 8462852 either.

Another possibility is that the dims could have resulted from several planets transiting at nearly the same time and would have aligned their orbits in such a manner to cause the small dim as they aligned and then the larger dim as they began to misalign.

It's either a planet with an asteroid belt orbiting it that has cleaned the debris away or it is several planets close to KIC that aligned so perfectly their alignments created the 15% and 22% dims of KIC.

 

[Dryson]

I do too. It wasn't long ago folks thought there was a planet Vulcan within Mercury's orbit.

This turned out not to be true--but there were observations of some objects--comets or asteroids) that didn't survive.

Something similar--just with more debris--may be taking place there.

It can't be comets because KIC has been being studied since the 1890's. Comets would have showed their tails within the last 127 years that KIC has been being watched.

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=a9f8ac0b7b2985fec0b8ab61873ed1d4&oe=57287925

On day 1491-92 (#1 on the chart linked above) there is a 007%(.993) dim of KIC 8462852. This could be a Jupiter sized planet or Super Earth. Jupiter causes a 1%(.99) dim in our Sun when it transits. Day 1491-92 is at .007% approx. which is .003% smaller than 1% possibly making the object at day 1491-92 a Super Earth within the Goldilocks Zone.

#4 is incorrect data translation.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Transit data - Earth takes 13 hours to transit across the Sun, Jupiter takes 33 hours. Saturn between 30 and 38 hours.
Neptune takes about 42 hours to transit.

From what location, exactly? These obviously aren't measured from an observer on Earth (none of these planets actually transit the sun from this location) so what are these calculations based on?

As you can see the distance from KIC to the objects that made the transit across KIC which was 2.5 up to 5.0 days in transit would start somewhere around Neptune and end up further out than Pluto.

Or, again, a highly elliptical orbit, which is what led the Kepler team to conclude it was a cometary anomaly.

With these kinds of orbits, an object has a lot of "dwell time" on one side of its parent body and very little on the other.

If the objects had been a large swarm of comets their transits would have increased the closer they came to KIC instead of staying within the range of 2.5 to 5.0 days.

See above.

The chart with 500 days shows us something very interesting. Between the first dim of 15% and the 22% there is approximately 700 days that pass. That would put the swarm of objects closer to an orbit around KIC similar to Mars around our Sun. But if the orbit is that close to KIC then the transits of the objects would take somewhere between 13 to 17 hours to transit and not 2.5 to 5.0 days. Its almost as if there was something controlling the transit of the objects around KIC manually.

Or as if they're in an elliptical orbit with a period of about 700 days, which would still be consistent with the long dwell time over the Earth-facing side of the star.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It can't be comets because KIC has been being studied since the 1890's. Comets would have showed their tails within the last 127 years that KIC has been being watched.

Incorrect. No telescope in existence is powerful enough to detect the cometary tail of an object in orbit of Tabby's Star. Not in the 1890s, and not in the 1980s. Kepler can't do this either; the Hubble can't even do that.

So no, comets would NOT have shown their tails within the last 127 years. We are too far away to see them.