Did Janeway torture Paris in "Thirty Days"?
- Thread starter The Overlord
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This reminds me of a conversation we had ages ago about spicing up your sex life by walking into the holodeck with your wife and when you get inside, you both instantly look like other people with bigger tits and firmer asses etc.
Or having a threesome with your wife and a hologram of your wife.
Unattractive people don't expect to die virgins, and it's rude to forbid them a healthy sex life just because you personally can't get it up for someone who doesn't look like a vogue model.
(I got into trouble for saying this before, but those people were 2 dimensional morons.)
Unattractive wo/men try harder.
What exactly is the exchange rate between "beauty" and "effort"?
Hey! Don't mock the Voyager Forum way!
Do you remember the Chute?
That was torture.
Or what about Ex Post Facto where they made Paris endlessly relive being murdered every 14 hours?
That was literally torture!
In Vis a Vis his body was stolen!!!! And the thief lived his life like a boss!
Not exactly torture, but a fricking reality check for sure.
What she did to Paris was more about Janeway not looking like a punk than Paris in any way actually being punished.
Are replicator rations commensurate with rank?
Did Tom get a massive reduction in rations with his rank droop to Ensign?
Poor bugger.
Do you remember the Chute?
That was torture.
Or what about Ex Post Facto where they made Paris endlessly relive being murdered every 14 hours?
That was literally torture!
In Vis a Vis his body was stolen!!!! And the thief lived his life like a boss!
Not exactly torture, but a fricking reality check for sure.
What she did to Paris was more about Janeway not looking like a punk than Paris in any way actually being punished.
Are replicator rations commensurate with rank?
Did Tom get a massive reduction in rations with his rank droop to Ensign?
Poor bugger.
There's been a misunderstanding. Poor choice of words on my part BUT I was a counter argument based off the chosen word "slutty". Which by my definition, my understanding is someone who or is dolled up to be 'hot' to fit a fantasy format. In my view of that definition, narrow as it might be, she'd need some dolling up and I don't see it. Nor do I subscribe to it. Either have sex or commit to someone you're attracted to or move on. Don't change them to suit your libido.
I myself, am no different than that woman. Plain. Pretty. Simple. Humble. Kinda clucky. So? Does it mean she's not deserving or able to get laid? Uh no. Not at all what I was implying. but do players approach me? No. because I don't fit into that mold the entertainment industry defines as sexy or slutty.
I didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Just trying to argue if that's what it to be achieve how would you with her without changing who she is? I could have just asked that instead of putting out my perception in a cynical way.
I myself, am no different than that woman. Plain. Pretty. Simple. Humble. Kinda clucky. So? Does it mean she's not deserving or able to get laid? Uh no. Not at all what I was implying. but do players approach me? No. because I don't fit into that mold the entertainment industry defines as sexy or slutty.
I didn't mean to ruffle feathers. Just trying to argue if that's what it to be achieve how would you with her without changing who she is? I could have just asked that instead of putting out my perception in a cynical way.
I know I'm not a woman, but women are allowed to call other women sluts within particular parameters.
Men are not, ever. Unless we are told specifically to do so, maybe. Dirty talk is a thing, and really if you can't say that word, then your talk is not going to be that dirty. Water finds its own level.
But a page back I was pretending to be a woman when I was typing, so it felt right.
Slut is a word used by prudes in olden days (when our parents were young), to describe a prostitute who doesn't get paid, which in moderns times is refereed to as a woman who is not a prostitute.
I think, at the time, it's mostly about jealousy.
A virgin Married at 17 in a world where divorce was impossible, of course they're going to resent any other woman who has seen more than one erect penis, and lash out with derisive meangirlishness.
Anyone can call a man a slut and we don't mind.
It actually feels really good, becuase we're born broken.
Men are not, ever. Unless we are told specifically to do so, maybe. Dirty talk is a thing, and really if you can't say that word, then your talk is not going to be that dirty. Water finds its own level.
But a page back I was pretending to be a woman when I was typing, so it felt right.
Slut is a word used by prudes in olden days (when our parents were young), to describe a prostitute who doesn't get paid, which in moderns times is refereed to as a woman who is not a prostitute.
I think, at the time, it's mostly about jealousy.
A virgin Married at 17 in a world where divorce was impossible, of course they're going to resent any other woman who has seen more than one erect penis, and lash out with derisive meangirlishness.
Anyone can call a man a slut and we don't mind.
It actually feels really good, becuase we're born broken.
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When you put it like that Tom suffered almost as much as Harry.Hey! Don't mock the Voyager Forum way!
Do you remember the Chute?
That was torture.
Or what about Ex Post Facto where they made Paris endlessly relive being murdered every 14 hours?
That was literally torture!
In Vis a Vis his body was stolen!!!! And the thief lived his life like a boss!
Not exactly torture, but a fricking reality check for sure.
What she did to Paris was more about Janeway not looking like a punk than Paris in any way actually being punished.
Are replicator rations commensurate with rank?
Did Tom get a massive reduction in rations with his rank droop to Ensign?
Poor bugger.
I didn't think Voyager was a depressing show, but maybe under the surface it was.
In a completely fair universe, anyone more handsome than me deserves considerable and constant pain.
Solid logic, sir!!!
It's got to be the one duty that Tuvok's guys don't screw up. Or am I forgetting something?
B'Elanna, with no rap sheet, was this close to being permanently busted from remaining being an officer, allegedly, when she gave in to temptation at a much earlier moment in her command development, so yes, Paris's sentence for disobeying orders, this far into the mission, doesn't seem excessive.
Again, I think this pretty much hits the mark by further delineating the attitude that he maintained during and after the incident.
Punishment for an offense vs confinement of an unredeemable criminal. Suder's crimes should have warranted the death penalty, but civilization had "progressed" beyond it. That, and if Suder was dead he wouldn't have been available when they needed his "talents."
They (Tuvok) were never able to exactly divine the condition that drove Suder's behavior, though, obviously Tuvok's ministrations were able to give him a perspective and sanguinity that he had never had before. Still, if he had survived the trip, I think that he would have been judged by Starfleet Medcial somewhere on a scale of impairment that would have probably earned him treatment, in the contemporary counterpart of one of those comfortable and properly functioning chairs we saw in TOS, or some such. Given the clear distinction between the nature of Suder's crime vs. Tom's disciplinary malfeasance, I agree that the varying arrangements were eminently reasonable.
And Suder's DIDN'T?
Why doesn't Suder deserve to be punished even more than Paris? Why does Suder deserve to have access to food replicators, sonic showers, and a comfortable bed (which are standard in all Starfleet crew quarters) and Paris doesn't?
I doubt that Janeway's stated view that Suder merited rehabilitation rather than a punitive expiation for his action, was out of line at all with the commonly accepted moral and ethical dictums of the era in the Federation. Drawing some sort of justifiable rationale to construct a model of suffering to be inflicted for such a crime was probably seen as a kind of self-satisfying form of societal revenge that didn't have the possibility of producing anything positive out of an already tragic situation. The issue with Paris, confined to the realm of martial concepts of obedience, duty, and sanction when those weren't observed, was evidently seen as similarly straight forward.
Perhaps it goes without saying, but Tuvok's even consciously formulating such thoughts, let alone articulating them, already shows the impact of his melding with Suder, even after just the single contact. While certainly interesting to hear, I've always felt that his disgusted dismissiveness of Janeway when he's fully in the thrall of his brutish emotional manifestation to be more compellingly, if obviously, telling about the hidden duality of his feelings about her, as I suspect you do as well. Very powerfully done, indeed.
I'm also much more in the part of the spectrum that generally views her in the light you describe here. I think she views both Kim and Paris as being very responsible crew members, but while it might seem capricious and arbitrary, Janeway might very well reckon the appropriate response to a like transgression, by factoring in not only Paris's relative age, level of experience, and growth in maturity as she has witnessed it, but also his ability to be fully cognizant of the impact of his decision making when its basis is problematic. Hence, the distinction that you draw..
As I've mentioned, I'm definitely of the mind in the appropriateness of your latter interpretation. But as to the former contention, while I certainly don't take it for granted that such decisions that she made during the journey were flaws, but more significantly, how characteristic can they be claimed to be, given the degree of crew punishment that we actually witnessed? Were there really that many instances of such that played out over the course of the series?. There are a few readily apparent examples, such as what's being discussed here and what was meted out to the Equinox survivors. But was there really such a significant amount that one can easily draw such charged opinions about Janeway from her application of this part of her charge? I think we saw severe dressing downs acting in the guise of punishment as much as actual confinement or even reduction of privilieges.
How much may I be forgetting or blocking out?
Pretty much everyone experienced death or near death at some point, or at the least, situations with the great potential to be existentially threatening. I don't know, but I think it just wound down to their environs being a fairly tough and malign neighborhood, for the most part.
Well, I don't know if Janeway tortured Paris in Thirty Days but she was particularly hard towards him, I agree on the fact that Paris had breaks the orders but it seems to me that Janeway's reaction was extreme:
1) she was ready to blow the Delta Flyer piloted by Paris even though there was no man's endangerment 2) she degraded him then 3) condemned him to pass 30 days in the brig.
Chakotay, Tuvok, Kim, the Doctor and Seven have desobeyed more than once in the past (and sometimes, their acts were well worse and would have deserved the martial court -well, except for Seven & the Doctor) during the previous seasons and nevertheless, none was so hard punished as Paris.
I mean, Chakotay was briefly dismissed from his post - not once but twice times ; Tuvok has got an oral reprimand, Seven was dismissed harshly and Kim has got a report in his personal file.
Of course, Janeway was deeply disappointed by Tom's actions but did it deserve a a double - even triple - penalties?!
Somebody would have an explanation ...except the unstable spirit of the scriptwriters? :-p
1) she was ready to blow the Delta Flyer piloted by Paris even though there was no man's endangerment 2) she degraded him then 3) condemned him to pass 30 days in the brig.
Chakotay, Tuvok, Kim, the Doctor and Seven have desobeyed more than once in the past (and sometimes, their acts were well worse and would have deserved the martial court -well, except for Seven & the Doctor) during the previous seasons and nevertheless, none was so hard punished as Paris.
I mean, Chakotay was briefly dismissed from his post - not once but twice times ; Tuvok has got an oral reprimand, Seven was dismissed harshly and Kim has got a report in his personal file.
Of course, Janeway was deeply disappointed by Tom's actions but did it deserve a a double - even triple - penalties?!
Somebody would have an explanation ...except the unstable spirit of the scriptwriters? :-p
Someone tried to explain Janeway's towards Paris in Thirty Days.
Even if I doubt of his conclusions (1 - she believed in Paris great potential and was angry to see him screwing a brilliant future in Starfleet and 2 - she had not really understood his passion for any shape of freedom, she who is trapped by rules and regulations, and what he was ready to make to live it) but there should be a part of the truth in all this
http://ashmh.livejournal.com/223699.html
Even if I doubt of his conclusions (1 - she believed in Paris great potential and was angry to see him screwing a brilliant future in Starfleet and 2 - she had not really understood his passion for any shape of freedom, she who is trapped by rules and regulations, and what he was ready to make to live it) but there should be a part of the truth in all this
http://ashmh.livejournal.com/223699.html
I always was under the impression that Suder wasn't really punished for his behaviour, simply isolated from the rest of the crew.
Incurable mental ilnesses were already exceedingly rare in the 23rd century, and it would stand to reason that Janeway, as the captain of a small, isolated vessel, with no special expertise in this area didn't feel equipped to mete out justice in such a case.
Incurable mental ilnesses were already exceedingly rare in the 23rd century, and it would stand to reason that Janeway, as the captain of a small, isolated vessel, with no special expertise in this area didn't feel equipped to mete out justice in such a case.
They should have put Living Witness after this episode to have a holographic recreation of Tom as a skeleton in the brig.
But, I think this episode would have made more sense if it had been written earlier. When she was worried the Marquis, who took plight of the oppressed seriously, might rebel. Maybe have a few people agree with him on the ship, to make her react to dangerously mutinous behavior.
As it was, it seemed arbitrary if not undeserved. Other bridge officers had already run afoul of the rules (doesn't Tuvok break the Prime Directive early on by giving there database away- and he isn't even helping others- just Voyager itself).
But as to torture, though some things do point to it, the brig is rather spacious, well lit and relatively comfortable compared to, say, what they call solitary confinement in a lot of prisons. Also, he has a data pad available. To write (and presumably to read and play angry birds if he feels like it) and use at his leisure. It's extremely harsh. But he is an officer on the brig of a ship. Having Harry spending all his off time chatting him up wouldn't be discipline hardly at all.
I actually really like the story he recounts in this episode and the visuals of the water world.
But, though I usually defend her, she does seem to arbitrarily with Tom jump to the most extreme choices: shoot down the Delta Flyer! Demote him! Bread and water! Solitary confinement! No real pillow on the brig bed!
But, I think this episode would have made more sense if it had been written earlier. When she was worried the Marquis, who took plight of the oppressed seriously, might rebel. Maybe have a few people agree with him on the ship, to make her react to dangerously mutinous behavior.
As it was, it seemed arbitrary if not undeserved. Other bridge officers had already run afoul of the rules (doesn't Tuvok break the Prime Directive early on by giving there database away- and he isn't even helping others- just Voyager itself).
But as to torture, though some things do point to it, the brig is rather spacious, well lit and relatively comfortable compared to, say, what they call solitary confinement in a lot of prisons. Also, he has a data pad available. To write (and presumably to read and play angry birds if he feels like it) and use at his leisure. It's extremely harsh. But he is an officer on the brig of a ship. Having Harry spending all his off time chatting him up wouldn't be discipline hardly at all.
I actually really like the story he recounts in this episode and the visuals of the water world.
But, though I usually defend her, she does seem to arbitrarily with Tom jump to the most extreme choices: shoot down the Delta Flyer! Demote him! Bread and water! Solitary confinement! No real pillow on the brig bed!
Not if you live a flipped schedule. But yes 0700 is AM
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