Parsecs in Star Trek - are they what we think?

[Mytran]

You didn't reach for a calculator in the 1960s, it lived permanently on your desk!



However, regardless of the effort (or lack thereof) that the writers put in over the years and various incarnations, the Star Trek universe is what it is. Trying to make sense of it is what we do on this board. That's why we're aboard her!

 

[kkt]

You didn't reach for a calculator in the 1960s, it lived permanently on your desk!

Sure you did!

 

[Mytran]

Ah, slide rules - them were the days!

 

[blssdwlf]

Hi Mytran,

My apologies for the late comments

ARENA
...
Incidentally, this is also the same episode where, having been stopped at the edge of the Metron solar system, Spock declares that Kirk could be out there anywhere "within a thousand cubic parsecs of space". I suppose Spock could just be using flowery language, but that seems very large for a solar system!

According to the dialogue it doesn't specify where the Enterprise is stopped but we can guess that it wasn't at the edge of the system because the Gorn was heading away from it and the Enterprise was closing on the Gorn.

KIRK: Our position.
DEPAUL: Two two seven nine pl, sir. Uncharted solar system at two four six six pm.
KIRK: Is it on the alien's course?
DEPAUL: No, sir. He's headed away from it.
...
UHURA: No, sir. It's from that solar system ahead.
...
KIRK: Mister Sulu, is the alien still heading away from that solar system?
SULU: Yes, sir. We're closing, sir.
...
SPOCK: We're being held in place, Captain, apparently from that solar system.
KIRK: This far out? That's impossible.​

With this in mind, 1,000 cubic parsecs is 10x10x10 parsecs or 32x32x32 LY. That could indicate that they were stopped many light years away from the Metron system and Spock's estimate is based on the space around the system.

Regarding "Breads and Circuses", the average speed for the TOS Enterprise to cover 1/16th of a parsec approaching from outside of a system is about 200,000c. 200,000c for interstellar travel is consistent with the speeds presented in "That Which Survives" and "Obsession".

The drift speed of the wreckage is about 0.03c to cover 0.2LY (1/16 parsec). Since we don't know how exactly the Beagle was destroyed (it was damaged by meteors), it is reasonable that her wreckage left the system at 0.03c either by explosion or some other means.

In "Where Silence Has Lease" there are too many cuts to determine how long they they took to record 1.4 parsecs or whether they were still at Warp 2 for the entire duration. If they were going anywhere close to the speed listed in Voyager's "The 37's" it's possible to cover 4.5 LY in a few hours.

"Maneuvers" had a speed of about 6600c and "The 37's" upwards to 21,000c. That's between 18 LY/day to 58 LY/day so in Voyager traveling parsecs doesn't sound prohibitively long.

At this point I'm not so sure parsec needs to be redefined. I do think the TNG warp formulas don't make sense though

 

[Mytran]

Thanks Blssdwlf, it's always nice to get a fresh perspective on these things!
Also, it gives me the chance to re-read my older work and spot a few minor but nonetheless irritating errors of mine. D'oh! Back to the spreadsheet again...

With regards to Arena, I think Spock is being needlessly pessimistic as it's pretty obvious where Kirk has gone (no other systems are being detected after all). However, it's a nice reminder of how gigantic the distances in between star systems can be.

The speeds in Manoevers and The 37s certainly suggest much faster speeds than the "official" TNG ones. In fact, speeds in early TNG in general seemed to be a lot more TOS-like (faster) than in later seasons, and DS9 did a good job of making travel between the distant Bajoran, Klingon and Terran space seem almost trivial. It was only later when TNG set in stone the various WF speeds (which Voyager sometime stuck to) that we had script problems in relation to the earlier series, but it would take more research than I have time for to isolate every instance! That's why I chose to concentrate on parsecs in the first place - there's less of them!

 

[JoeCabby]

They should just reboot the tech in the new Star Trek. I think viewers nowadays would look into this more than in the past. In the older versions they did have techie guys who filled in "technobabble" for the writers, but obviously their measurements were out of whack. It would be nice in the new version that they come up with a standard Units Of Measure across the board and hire some math geek to make sure scripts are in line.

If the new Star Trek is in the future, they could explain old differences in Units of Measure as issues with the translator or even that different ships used different units of measure (Metric vs. Imperial vs. Space Meters).

 

[MacLeod]

Are there units that have changed definition by an order of magnitude or more? (There's "mil", which may be a thousandth of an inch or then ten kilometers, but that's not a case of the name acquiring a new meaning, just a case of two different teams picking competing definitions.)


Timo Saloniemi

I would say most people around the world on hearing the word mil would think of 1 thousnads of a litre or 1ml, and perhaps 1 thosands of a metre i.e. 1mm.

 

[Paul Weaver]

I would say most people around the world on hearing the word mil would think of 1 thousnads of a litre or 1ml, and perhaps 1 thosands of a metre i.e. 1mm.

Yes, context would be important. If you're putting up a fence and it's not quite level you'd say "just a few more mill". If you're measuring out a volume you'd say "200 mill".

Another would be quantities - a budget may be "15 mill", meaning ¤15 million

I've never heard of a "thousandth of an inch", which appears to be about 25 micrometers. I'm not sure what normal human-interacting (i.e. non engineering) scale would need to go anywhere near that accuracy. Indeed as I understand it Americans used a mostly-sensible scale of 1/16th of an inch which is about 1.5mm and about the level of accuracy needed on most things (my drill bits go down to .5mm in some cases, which would be about 1/32th of an inch).

 

[T'Girl]

For people who deal with such often, five one thousnadths of a inch is usually expressed as "five thousand.".

 

[B.J.]

Close, it would be "five thousandths", with an understood "of an inch" at the end. I'm an engineer that deals with this stuff everyday. Point being is that no, we don't use "mil" at all.

 

[Paul Weaver]

You're an engineer that deals with inches?!

 

[B.J.]

I'm in the US and in the aerospace industry. It's kind of a contractual requirement. Not to mention the fact that there's a ton of specs and processes going back decades that wouldn't convert well.

 

[John Clark]

You're an engineer that deals with inches?!

I'm not an engineer either, but some of the work I did with design back in the mid 90s still tended to use inches.
Our design guys still do today to some extent (but I think they have both scales on their documents)

 

[Timo]

Heck, I'm a thoroughbred SI-worshipping European, and while I might use micrometers for silicon wafer thickness and nanometers for surface features etched on them, they're still 4" or 5" wafers!

Although a better case is that of the 6" wafer, which is closer to industry standard than the small stuff I toy with, and actually 150 mm sharp. It still gets called a six-incher for brevity in a SI-purist community.

Some things simply have to be measured in inches for sheer weight of tradition. Including certain pieces of anatomy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

Well what one use in colloquial speech might differ from more formal use.

The only important thing is that both parties understand whuich system is being used to be used. So multi-million dollar space probes are lost because some uses imperail instead of SI units (as per contract).

Even in written form it's good form to specify meausring system being used. In the case of tempature which is it C F or K.

 

[Paul Weaver]

I always use Rankine for temperature, litres for beer (as much as I like a pint, I prefer a German litre - fewer trips to the bar), and feet for "certain pieces of anatomy"

 

[Drone]

Some things simply have to be measured in inches for sheer weight of tradition. Including certain pieces of anatomy.
Timo Saloniemi

and feet for "certain pieces of anatomy"

Oh, brother!!!!