Wolf 359 vs Dominion War

[Tebok]

In the battle of Wolf 359, the Federation lost 39 ships and it was such a shocking and devastating loss. Later, Commander Shelby mentioned 'Having the Fleet back up within a year'

However, During the Dominion War, scores of ships are destroyed in every battle. At least 50 Federations Ships - if not a lot more - were lost at the First Battle of Chin'toka Alone. (311 total between Federation, Klingon and Romulan)

I know from a production standpoint - they just had more of an ability to make the space battles bigger, but is there any in universe explanation or theories on why 39 ships is such a devastating and crippling loss, but later on, there are suddenly enough ships to have two to three times that number destroyed in every battle?

 

[nx1701g]

In the battle of Wolf 359, the Federation lost 39 ships and it was such a shocking and devastating loss. Later, Commander Shelby mentioned 'Having the Fleet back up within a year'

However, During the Dominion War, scores of ships are destroyed in every battle. At least 50 Federations Ships - if not a lot more - were lost at the First Battle of Chin'toka Alone. (311 total between Federation, Klingon and Romulan)

I know from a production standpoint - they just had more of an ability to make the space battles bigger, but is there any in universe explanation or theories on why 39 ships is such a devastating and crippling loss, but later on, there are suddenly enough ships to have two to three times that number destroyed in every battle?

I always thought that, perhaps, those ships were from a subfleet in Starfleet. In DS9 we saw multiple some fleets (Sisko in the 9th Fleet), so it would make sense that something like that happened here.

That would also explain restoring the damaged subfleet to have them back up to normal in a year.

 

[Terok Nor]

Perhaps due to Wolf 359 Starfleet built a lot more ships than ever before in case the Borg or another race waged war on the Federation. They also had a few years to prepare for the Dominion War since it was pretty much inevitable from The Die Is Cast onwards. To be honest Shelby stating the fleet would be back up and running in a year was ridiculous. That line should have been left on the cutting room floor as it took away some of the impact of the losses.

 

[DonIago]

I always figured the near-miss inspired the Federation to devote significantly more resources to starship production.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Well the Federation was stated to be building new ships for an oncoming conflict with the Borg, back TBOBW, but they wouldn't be ready for a least another year. We know some of these new weapons and ships include the Defiant, Intrepid, Sovereign and Prometheus class. As well as the Quantum torpedoes.

Pre-TBOBW, the Federation wasn't in any shape for any kind of protracted conflict. They built ships for exploration, not war. After Wolf 359, the focus changed to a more military bent.

Also keep in mind that in the battles we saw on DS9, the fleets were largely made up of Miranda and Excelsior class ships. The same model of ships that were brand new during Admiral Kirk's days. There were Galaxy class ships too, but the fleets seemed to be bolstered by those old models. Maybe losing so many old style ships wasn't such a big deal? The lose of life certainly was, but the actual ship, probably not.

 

[USS KG5]

In the battle of Wolf 359, the Federation lost 39 ships and it was such a shocking and devastating loss. Later, Commander Shelby mentioned 'Having the Fleet back up within a year'

It was devastating I'd guess for the following reason: -

- 11,000 lives lost.
- They achieved very little beyond slowing the Borg down for a few hours.
- They had never or not any time recently had such a kicking in one go.

Starfleet probably loses 39 ships a year most years, but an extra 39 in one go was a shock.

However, During the Dominion War, scores of ships are destroyed in every battle. At least 50 Federations Ships - if not a lot more - were lost at the First Battle of Chin'toka Alone. (311 total between Federation, Klingon and Romulan)

Probably the fleet lost 50 ships overall during that battle. The 311 ships was from the second battle, when they lose the system to the new Breen weapon.

I know from a production standpoint - they just had more of an ability to make the space battles bigger, but is there any in universe explanation or theories on why 39 ships is such a devastating and crippling loss, but later on, there are suddenly enough ships to have two to three times that number destroyed in every battle?

They obviously had dragged ships out of mothballs, been building like crazy, and lots of field training, to maybe double fleet numbers during the war, or more.

Imagine the current US Navy, with about 300 ships, were to lose an aircraft carrier with all hands - what would the consequences be?

Pretty devastating - due to budget cuts they are short of carriers anyhow, they would need to build at least one more, and potentially escalate the building program for the new carrier class to fill the gap. They would also have lost around 60 expensive combat aircraft.

Not to mention of course the tragic consequences of losing 7000 lives, that's 7000 grieving families, it's more dead than 9/11. It would be a terrible national tragedy.

If lost to an enemy it would also be a massive loss of prestige. Overseas projection of power through the carrier group has been the feature of US foreign policy for years. The disposition of every carrier group would be reassessed to deal with the new threat.

But the US Navy would remain the largest and most powerful in the world, a capable and professional fighting force representing US interests.

It would just hurt - a lot.

 

[section31agent]

deleted

 

[section31agent]

In the battle of Wolf 359, the Federation lost 39 ships and it was such a shocking and devastating loss. Later, Commander Shelby mentioned 'Having the Fleet back up within a year'

However, During the Dominion War, scores of ships are destroyed in every battle. At least 50 Federations Ships - if not a lot more - were lost at the First Battle of Chin'toka Alone. (311 total between Federation, Klingon and Romulan)

I know from a production standpoint - they just had more of an ability to make the space battles bigger, but is there any in universe explanation or theories on why 39 ships is such a devastating and crippling loss, but later on, there are suddenly enough ships to have two to three times that number destroyed in every battle?

No there was no real explanation given. Even in DS9's The Die is Cast, a Starfleet task force of 9 starships was considered "substantial reinforcements". By the final season, 9 starships was like a scouting party.

A lot people here try to rationalize it by saying Starfleet had all its ships out on exploration before. Or suddenly they started maxing out their shipyards (even though Senator Vreenak stated that Federation shipyards were still being re-built). But I think its best not to dwell too much on those kind of numerical details when watching Star Trek. Like Voyager's photon torpedo count

 

[Timo]

A couple of dozen ships has never been a sizeable chunk of Starfleet. Even back in "Redemption", Romulans were convinced that a force of that size could not be a valid invasion force, and must be some sort of a curious feint.

Conversely, the Wolf 359 loss wasn't crippling or significant in "BoBW". Shelby is positively cheery when she says the Fleet (the 3rd Fleet, perhaps, the one guarding Earth in the DS9 years) will be back up in a year.

So I don't see any contradiction, discrepancy or problem here.

OTOH, the availability of ships has always been a problem in Trek. Getting fifty ships to defend location X is a major and time-consuming thing be it Earth in TNG in peacetime or Bajor in DS9 in wartime - simply because starships can only move so fast. Unless you are willing to pull off ships from their usual duties and have them standing by for an action, that is.

Even in DS9's The Die is Cast, a Starfleet task force of 9 starships was considered "substantial reinforcements".

Except it wasn't. No such words were spoken, nor did those ships make any sort of a combat contribution. For all we know, and consistently with the rest of Trek, the arrival of those ships was purely symbolic: until then, the Klingons had been fighting a Bajoran space station, but now they would be forced to confront (and probably rather easily destroy) actual Starfleet starships, with all the political implications.

A lot people here try to rationalize it by saying Starfleet had all its ships out on exploration before.

The Federation would have little reason to be more active in war than it is in peace, really. Its existence is under threat basically every minute - every ship mothballed or unbuilt means lowered odds of Starfleet being there to help when an unwary adventurer fiddles with the valve of the Great Galactic Drainpipe or whatever.

Ships being out to explore is a confirmed fact as such. Their ability to return back to defend Earth varies: in ENT, it took weeks for the farthest explorer to return, but in "BoBW", the superfast E-D got from Jouret, an apparent outer edge, all the way to Earth in perhaps six days at most... A delay of a full year or more for a major part of the fleet probably cannot be explained in terms of travel times alone. One might count in the time it takes to complete or abandon the original crucial mission, potentially much more important to UFP safety and security than the fight against the Dominion...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Sorry, but I don't think this requires much explanation, not certainly one in universe. It parallels what happened over the course of the Second World War. Coral Sea involved two dozen US ships; the loss of the USS Lexington was a significant loss. Three dozen ships were available of Midway one month later, and the loss of the USS Yorktown greatly weakened the US carrier fleet. At Leyte Gulf, the US fleet had three dozen aircraft carriers along with 200 other battleships, destroyers and cruisers. The capacity to produce and support large fleet had dramatically increased over the course of the war.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

My interpretation is that the fleet that was destroyed at Wolf 359 was the fleet assigned to protect Earth, just the ships that were close enough to reach the cube before it reached Earth.

Also, if you compare Coming Of Age with Nog's recruitment into Starfleet it's possible that Starfleet lowered their academic standards after the Borg threat to bolster their numbers. The Defiant was probably not the only new model of ship that came from that encounter either, it's likely they moved away from huge community ships like the Enterprise-D toward a greater number of ships with smaller compliments. This is supported by Voyager's smaller compliment compared to the Enterprise-D when the ships basically had the same purpose.

As others have said, when it was clear the Dominion War would heat up it's likely that ships that were deployed farther out were called back in.

 

[woodstock]

Sorry, but I don't think this requires much explanation, not certainly one in universe. It parallels what happened over the course of the Second World War. Coral Sea involved two dozen US ships; the loss of the USS Lexington was a significant loss. Three dozen ships were available of Midway one month later, and the loss of the USS Yorktown greatly weakened the US carrier fleet. At Leyte Gulf, the US fleet had three dozen aircraft carriers along with 200 other battleships, destroyers and cruisers. The capacity to produce and support large fleet had dramatically increased over the course of the war.

And that's just one nation, imagine the entire Federation geared for war, so many planets quickly converting factories and shipyards for otherwise non-military ships to warships, would produce a lot of fire power fairly quickly.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

In the battle of Wolf 359, the Federation lost 39 ships and it was such a shocking and devastating loss. Later, Commander Shelby mentioned 'Having the Fleet back up within a year'

However, During the Dominion War, scores of ships are destroyed in every battle. At least 50 Federations Ships - if not a lot more - were lost at the First Battle of Chin'toka Alone. (311 total between Federation, Klingon and Romulan)

I know from a production standpoint - they just had more of an ability to make the space battles bigger, but is there any in universe explanation or theories on why 39 ships is such a devastating and crippling loss, but later on, there are suddenly enough ships to have two to three times that number destroyed in every battle?

Because Wolf 359 was the biggest defeat of the Federation and loss of life for Starfleet since god who knows.

 

[nx1701g]

Pre-TBOBW, the Federation wasn't in any shape for any kind of protracted conflict. They built ships for exploration, not war. After Wolf 359, the focus changed to a more military bent.

Actually, as of 2366 (the same year as The Battle of Wolf 359) the Federation and the Cardassians had been at War for over a decade.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Pre-TBOBW, the Federation wasn't in any shape for any kind of protracted conflict. They built ships for exploration, not war. After Wolf 359, the focus changed to a more military bent.

Actually, as of 2366 (the same year as The Battle of Wolf 359) the Federation and the Cardassians had been at War for over a decade.

I know. However, that conflicts with Season 1+2 Picard statements about 'Starfleet not being a military'. In "Peak Performance", Riker said it was a "waste of effort to test their combat skills".

The Fed-Cardassian War was something retconned into the history of TNG during the 4th season. Not bad, just TPTW wanted to establish the Cardassians as a pre-established threat to the Fed, but they had to step on continuity to do so.

 

[section31agent]

Conversely, the Wolf 359 loss wasn't crippling or significant in "BoBW". Shelby is positively cheery when she says the Fleet (the 3rd Fleet, perhaps, the one guarding Earth in the DS9 years) will be back up in a year.

So I don't see any contradiction, discrepancy or problem here.

Shelby being "cheery" doesn't mean it wasn't a devastating blow to the Federation fleet lol. She clearly said "the fleet" will be back up in a year. There was never any mention of a 3rd fleet or any numbered fleet anywhere in all of TNG, TOS or ENT. Now you can kind of retcon it to yourself as the 3rd fleet if you feel that makes sense.

But remember, after the Borg attack, Starfleet Command was willing to turn a blind eye to the Cardassian military's treaty violations. When Starfleet sent Picard in to arrest Captain Maxwell, it had not been 1 year yet since the Borg attack, so Command made it clear the peace had to be maintained at all costs because they were not yet ready for another armed conflict. So even though it was very obvious to Picard that the Cardassians were not honoring the treaty, he couldn't do anything except threaten them with "we will be watching you". Now after Shelby had her one year to rebuild the fleet, Stafleet Command had a different attitude. They send in the hard ass Captain Jellico to show the Cardassians who's boss.

Ironically the same Starfleet admiral that told Picard they must avoid conflict with the Cardassians at all costs was pretty confident about going to war with the Romulans a year earlier, before the Borg attacked them.

Even in DS9's The Die is Cast, a Starfleet task force of 9 starships was considered "substantial reinforcements".

Except it wasn't. No such words were spoken, nor did those ships make any sort of a combat contribution. For all we know, and consistently with the rest of Trek, the arrival of those ships was purely symbolic: until then, the Klingons had been fighting a Bajoran space station, but now they would be forced to confront (and probably rather easily destroy) actual Starfleet starships, with all the political implications.

Actually it was described by Sisko as "substantial reinforcements" and confirmed by Eddington after. And it definitely wasn't just for show. You can't retcon that one. By the way, they were not fighting Klingons, they were expecting a retaliatory strike by the Jem'hadar which Starfleet Command described would be "screaming outta the wormhole looking for revenge"

 

[USS KG5]

Pre-TBOBW, the Federation wasn't in any shape for any kind of protracted conflict. They built ships for exploration, not war. After Wolf 359, the focus changed to a more military bent.

Actually, as of 2366 (the same year as The Battle of Wolf 359) the Federation and the Cardassians had been at War for over a decade.

Was just a conflict perhaps? The Feds saw it more like the Afghanistan conflict, sure it was a nasty little fight and they lost people and the odd ship in nasty circumstances, but it was not the existential battle they face with the Dominion later.

 

[Timo]

Shelby being "cheery" doesn't mean it wasn't a devastating blow to the Federation fleet lol.

Well it sort of does. She's an expert on the subject, and if she's not worried, then there's nothing devastating about it. Especially when nobody says there'd be anything devastating about it!

Now after Shelby had her one year to rebuild the fleet, Stafleet Command had a different attitude. They send in the hard ass Captain Jellico to show the Cardassians who's boss.

And yet Jellico doesn't do anything differently: he (still?) doesn't have a warfleet to back up his posturing, but must work with the E-D alone.

Ironically the same Starfleet admiral that told Picard they must avoid conflict with the Cardassians at all costs was pretty confident about going to war with the Romulans a year earlier, before the Borg attacked them.

Might be more of a function of the Romulans being next door and the Cardassians being in the far frontier. Two factors there, then:

1) Romulans matter, Cardassians don't. So going to war with the former might be necessary and desirable even if they are the stronger enemy.
2) Fighting wars is not merely more necessary closer to home, it's also easier. Sure, starship fighting is almost logistics-free, but simple geometrical concerns mean that fighting close involves fewer ships (or fewer gaps, whichever you choose) than fighting far.

Actually it was described by Sisko as "substantial reinforcements" and confirmed by Eddington after.

Oops, I read that poorly and though it was about "Way of the Warrior". (The six ships in that one were not "substantial" and did serve a symbolic function.)

You can't retcon that one.

Sure can. Nine ships is what begins the process of reinforcing; as they arrive "tomorrow", which is fantastically and exceptionally soon, the bulk is likely to arrive later, after a more consistent delay.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Because Wolf 359 was the biggest defeat of the Federation and loss of life for Starfleet since god who knows.

It would be interesting to learn if there's any truth to this. "Drumhead" would have been the perfect place to bring this up, but Satie fell sort of doing so.

TNG makes it seem as if large formations of ships are unusual in peacetime. But it also establishes they are commonplace in wartime, and the UFP is constantly at war with somebody. And it's in a stalemate with some of its enemies, with uneasy borders, neutral zones and whatever, suggesting such enemies can do damage to Starfleet.

That "past war" is such a common occurrence in Trek, and that such a war never shows up on the surface until first mentioned, stands proof to it being possible that Starfleet loses hordes of ships fairly often and we simply don't get to hear of it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Grendelsbayne]

You can't retcon that one.

Sure can. Nine ships is what begins the process of reinforcing; as they arrive "tomorrow", which is fantastically and exceptionally soon, the bulk is likely to arrive later, after a more consistent delay.

Timo Saloniemi

There's also the question of what is being reinforced and what are the actual capabilities of the reinforcements. I don't recall this specific episode, but obviously nine Galaxy class ships would certainly qualify as substantial, while nine Oberth class would be nearly useless. And DS9 as a target may very well require less help than many people would expect, since it was shown to be capable of seeing off a significant Klingon fleet by itself.