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Regarding canon: isn't it ironic?

An early "Star Wars" comic used the original human stand-in for Jabba the Hutt - as Jabba - long before Jabba made an official onscreen appearance.

So despite publishers of the novels and games saying that "everything counts", it was obvious that as "Star Wars" grew way beyond three theatrical movies (and the Christmas special everyone wanted to forget, except for animated Boba Fett), "what is canon" was going to have to be pulled back at some point.

Inevitable.

What is sad is there are still "Star Trek" fans who steadfastly refuse to pick up recommended Trek novels and comics that might answer their questions about "whatever happned to...?" because someone once told them "the tie-ins don't count", or, they complain that the movies of TMP, ST II and ST III "left out the best bits of the novelization".
 
What is sad is there are still "Star Trek" fans who steadfastly refuse to pick up recommended Trek novels and comics that might answer their questions about "whatever happned to...?" because someone once told them "the tie-ins don't count", or, they complain that the movies of TMP, ST II and ST III "left out the best bits of the novelization".

The fannish obsession with "canon" is not unique to Trek. Doesn't matter if it's FARSCAPE or THE 4400 or UNDERWORLD or whatever, the question invariably arises:

"But is it canon?"

At this point, to be honest, I would gladly never hear the word again. :)
 
An early "Star Wars" comic used the original human stand-in for Jabba the Hutt - as Jabba - long before Jabba made an official onscreen appearance.

As Idran said, this isn't right. Yes, the comic used the scene of Jabba that was filmed for SW and unused, but the artist picked one of the random Cantina aliens to represent Jabba. The plan in the movie was to animate a stop-motion alien over the human actor anyway. But their efforts failed, which is why the scene was omitted.


So despite publishers of the novels and games saying that "everything counts", it was obvious that as "Star Wars" grew way beyond three theatrical movies (and the Christmas special everyone wanted to forget, except for animated Boba Fett), "what is canon" was going to have to be pulled back at some point.

Except you're conflating two different periods. The Expanded Universe as we know it began in 1991 with Dark Horse's Dark Empire miniseries and Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, five years after the Marvel comic had been cancelled. It wasn't until the EU era that the "everything counts" policy was codified. And at first, I think the new EU material tended to ignore the Marvel comics, and the early books like the Han Solo trilogy and Splinter of the Mind's Eye. I think later works tried to incorporate elements of them or rationalize them to some extent, but it was retroactive. There was no special "canon policy" in place at the time of the Marvel comics, beyond the standard approval process used for any media tie-in, whether Star Wars or Star Trek or Transformers or whatever.
 
Even within franchises that are of literary origin, rather than cinematic, and even in those that have never had any officially licensed non-canonical content, there are contradictions.

Take Oz, for example. Even though the 1939 MGM movie has supplanted the original novels in popular culture (to the point where the writers of the 1985 Disney film, Return to Oz, felt somehow compelled to make numerous nods to it, none of which made positive contributions to the story), it is the original 14 novels, not the movie, that is the canon source. In The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Glinda was described as the Good Witch of the South, but (evidently in response to objections from those who considered "good witch" to be oxymoronic) the 13 subsequent books referred to her as a sorceress (and I believe the introduction to one of the books mentions that change in terminology specifically). And in Wizard, it's stated that there were, at the time of Dorothy's arrival, but four witches in Oz, the Good Witches of the North and South, and the Wicked Witches of the East (killed when Dorothy's house landed on her) and West (melted down with a bucket of scrub water), but additional witches (e.g., Mombi and Blinkie), along with characters who were witches in everything but name, were introduced in the subsequent books. More pointedly, in The Marvelous Land of Oz (the only canonical Oz book in which Dorothy doesn't appear), the Wizard is very specifically stated to have handed over the infant Ozma to the custody of the witch Mombi, and is vilified for having done so; in Dorothy and the Wizard in Oz, however, all is forgiven, and Baum, having realized that he'd painted himself into a corner by vilifying the Wizard, conveniently forgot having ever done so. (Decades later, Hugh Pendexter III's non-canonical 1977 short story, "Oz and the Three Witches," manages a remarkable feat of retconning away the seeming contradiction; I'll only say that in Pendexter's version, the Wizard wasn't aware of the child's importance, but was very well aware that between Mombi and the Wicked Witches of the East and West, Mombi was the least of three evils, and the only one of the three who would have any compunctions about killing Ozma).

And take Alan Dean Foster's Humanx Commonwealth, a print-only, single-author-only, milieu since its 1972 inception. In 1977's Orphan Star (only the fifth HC book, and only the third Flinx book), we have this:
Body surfing was hardly an activity native to the thranx, but like many human sports, it had been adopted joyfully by them. They brought their own beauty to it. While a thranx in the water could never match the seal-like suppleness of a human, when it came to nakedly riding the waves they were far superior. Flinx saw their buoyant, hard-shelled bodies dancing at the forefront of successive waves, b-thorax pushed forward to permit air to reach breathing spicules.

Occasionally, a human would mount the back of a thranx friend for a double ride. It was no inconvenience to the insectoid mount, whose body was harder and nearly as buoyant as the elliptical boards themselves.
(Alan Dean Foster, Orphan Star, New York: Ballantine, 1977, first edition, second printing, page 63)
Yet later HC novels completely contradicted this, describing the Thranx as being terrified (as an entire species) of immersion in water (quite understandable, given that they breathe through spicules on the b-thorax).

I still haven't seen SW7:TFA, but I can certainly understand how it would throw out vast amounts of literature that was, at best, deuterocanonical in nature.

Of course, being an ADF fan, I rather object to Splinter being lumped together with such rubbish as the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies, and like it better than I like a lot of what's in the more recent SW EU continuity (and indeed, I've just about completely given up on SW lit, most of which I find to be boring, confusing, excessively violent, and far too liberally peppered with gratuitous "gross-out" scenes).
 
Of course, being an ADF fan, I rather object to Splinter being lumped together with such rubbish as the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies...

Well, I wasn't reviewing them, merely referencing their place in the chronology. They, like the Marvel comics, were pre-EU fiction that the EU later either ignored or retconned or retroactively folded in or all of the above.

And I never read the Calrissian trilogy, and I only read the first two books of Brian Daley's Solo trilogy. I don't remember them being significantly different in quality than Splinter.
 
What is sad is there are still "Star Trek" fans who steadfastly refuse to pick up recommended Trek novels and comics that might answer their questions about "whatever happned to...?" because someone once told them "the tie-ins don't count", or, they complain that the movies of TMP, ST II and ST III "left out the best bits of the novelization".

The fannish obsession with "canon" is not unique to Trek. Doesn't matter if it's FARSCAPE or THE 4400 or UNDERWORLD or whatever, the question invariably arises:

"But is it canon?"

At this point, to be honest, I would gladly never hear the word again. :)


And I am content to read and enjoy the books and not care if it is considered canon, but there is a certain amount of respect and recognition that goes along with that word, such as in what Therin said, so many Trek fans miss out because they think or are told that there's no value because they're not considered canon.
 
Of course, being an ADF fan, I rather object to Splinter being lumped together with such rubbish as the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies
Bitch-Please-Side-Eye-Side-Eyeing-GIF_zpshluzrjk7.gif
 
or video games with alternate endings and stuff.

Well, in the old EU most, if not all, games the light side ending was the Canonical ending

The other endings were just "What Ifs"

Game mechanics, like holding 50 guns at once or having Luke and Vader fight on Hoth in Battlefront 2 were never part of the lore.
 
Last night, something about canon and about TFA (which I still haven't actually seen) torpedoing the existing SW novel continuity, occurred to me.

It would seem that the Abramsverse has expanded to encompass A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far Far Away.
 
Actually, the use of "canon" in a non-biblical context is generally believed to have originated in regard to the Sherlock Holmes milieu.

And what's with the Amy Poehler side-eye?
 
Last night, something about canon and about TFA (which I still haven't actually seen) torpedoing the existing SW novel continuity, occurred to me.

It would seem that the Abramsverse has expanded to encompass A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far Far Away.

Those aren't analogous at all. The Abrams Star Trek universe is an alternate timeline that exists alongside and distinct from the previous screen canon and has essentially no impact on Prime-universe tie-ins because it's a different continuity. The Kathleen Kennedy-produced Star Wars films -- a few of which have the involvement of Abrams as a producer or executive producer and only one of which has had his involvement as a writer-director -- are a direct continuation of the screen canon and thereby overwrite the conjectural tie-ins that covered similar ground. (Which, as I mentioned above, is hardly the first time that Star Wars tie-ins have been contradicted by new canon, just the first time it's been done wholesale instead of piecemeal.) So they're essentially completely opposite situations.
 
Actually, the use of "canon" in a non-biblical context is generally believed to have originated in regard to the Sherlock Holmes milieu.

That's my understanding, too. The original works by Conan Doyle are the the Canon, referred to as such, and everything else is apocrypha.

Just like modern-day tie-in novels and comics.
 
Mr. Cox: Precisely.

Mr. Bennett: Why am I suddenly reminded of all those situations when Spock's reaction (or Data's, or Saavik's, or T'Pol's) to a weak joke ends up funnier than the original joke was?
 
It would seem that the Abramsverse has expanded to encompass A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far Far Away.

I bet someone on set had to physically restrain him from slipping a bottle of Slusho into a scene. ;)

Unlike Star Trek (which has Slusho of course), there doesn't seem to be any of his usual easter eggs in the Star Wars movie. There's a 'Kelvin Ridge,' but nothing that would tie the Star Wars universe somehow to any other project.
 
Unlike Star Trek (which has Slusho of course), there doesn't seem to be any of his usual easter eggs in the Star Wars movie. There's a 'Kelvin Ridge,' but nothing that would tie the Star Wars universe somehow to any other project.

Seems natural enough. This isn't his own creation or a franchise he was given license to reinvent and put his own stamp on. It's a franchise that Lucasfilm and Kathleen Kennedy are in charge of, and they brought Abrams on board to contribute to it, after which he turns it over to the other directors and writers that will follow him. So it's more like he was renting the house than owning it, so he didn't really try to make it "his."

That said, Abrams did cast Simon Pegg in a significant role, even though he was buried under makeup. So there's that, at least.
 
Unlike Star Trek (which has Slusho of course), there doesn't seem to be any of his usual easter eggs in the Star Wars movie. There's a 'Kelvin Ridge,' but nothing that would tie the Star Wars universe somehow to any other project.

Seems natural enough. This isn't his own creation or a franchise he was given license to reinvent and put his own stamp on. It's a franchise that Lucasfilm and Kathleen Kennedy are in charge of, and they brought Abrams on board to contribute to it, after which he turns it over to the other directors and writers that will follow him. So it's more like he was renting the house than owning it, so he didn't really try to make it "his."

That said, Abrams did cast Simon Pegg in a significant role, even though he was buried under makeup. So there's that, at least.

And Greg Grunberg, who has popped up in many of productions from FELICITY on . . . .
 
I always look at non-screen extensions of franchise as "what if's". It's one way things may have gone after we saw things on TV/Film, but until something is seen on screen then it's all up for grabs.

That being said, the aspect of Andorians having four sexes and facing extinction, is something that I think would be really interesting to explore on the next series. Looking at morality and just what people might do if faced with the end of their civilisation.
 
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