2015-2016 NBA Season Discussion

[gblews]

Really nice tribute to Kobe in Philly last night. Great response from the fans as well, which was a definite surprise to me. I still have a hard time believing that that "cut your hearts out" thing in the '01 Finals spurred "all" of the Kobe-hate in Philly over the years.

I continue to think that there is a healthy layer of "what might have been" with a layer of, "anywhere but L.A.". After all, the Lakers had beaten Philly twice previously for championships so the seeds of Laker-hate had been there for years.

Anyway, nice little farewell to the Mamba. Very classy. I particularly liked when the announcer said "we knew him first". That was nice.

 

[gblews]

Well, looks like the NBA has finally turned it's attention to the 76ers and Sam Hinkie's "Plan", which I think is to tank until every position is filled with a No. 1 overall pick.

But seriously, the league was bound to have to step in as the 6ers are in their 3rd year of blatantly tanking. This season it seems, Hinkie hell bent on securing the No. 1 pick. They somehow lost to the Spurs who were resting all of their starters, by 51 points in Philly. Don't think I've ever seen the league push a team for a specific front office hire in the years I've watched the NBA. But what Philly is doing is unprecedented. I mean lots of teams have tanked, but none for as long and none as boldly. And there seems to be no end in sight.

Kevin Ding wrote earlier this month that the worst thing would be the 6ers actually getting the No. 1 pick and getting good as it would really encourage other teams to follow suit. Thus the reason Daniel Silver is involved. Read another article that says that the way the team handled the Jalil Okafor situation is also a factor in pushing for Colangelo.

I'm not surprised by this little turn of events.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...bied-league-office-philadelphia-76ers-changes

Warriors have a very real chance o getting the Lakers' 33 game streak record. This has me quite distressed. I haven't gotten to the point of actual prayers for a Dubs loss in the next 5 games, but I'm gettin' close.

 

[Corran Horn]

When they bring in the old man (Jerry Colangelo) it's not to aid the GM - it's to BE the GM.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Frankly, I don't want him over Hinkie. The worst thing in the world would be to trade for a bunch of players to be mediocre instead of terrible.

My guess is they brought him in for more cultural/institutional changes to give structure to the youngest team in the league after Okafor's legal troubles.

ETA: Rest In Peace Dolph Schayes. One of NBA's greatest.

 

[gblews]

Frankly, I don't want him over Hinkie. The worst thing in the world would be to trade for a bunch of players to be mediocre instead of terrible.

I've heard this sentiment from other Philly fans. It puzzles me, because no one in the league strives to be "mediocre" (except, the subjects of this discussion). It's just that even with a great core of young talent, great role players, the right coach, solid veterans, a team has to become mediocre on it's way from terrible to the top. This to me is one of the big flaws in Hinkie's plan, he is trying to put together a team that goes from horrible to serious championship contender virtually overnight. It's not impossible, just highly unlikely.

My guess is they brought him in for more cultural/institutional changes to give structure to the youngest team in the league after Okafor's legal troubles.

No offense, but this sounds just a bit delusional. If Hinkie is who he is supposed to be, you shouldn't have to bring in a guy of Colangelo's stature to "give structure to a young team". Besides, that is the coaching staff's job. I'm going to have to agree with Corran. I would not be surprised to see Hinkie turn in his resignation, maybe not during the season, but in the off season.

I think that in order to keep his job, Hinkie is going to have to "adjust" (shall we say), his plan.

ETA: Rest In Peace Dolph Schayes. One of NBA's greatest.

Sad news. RIP.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

My thought on Hinkie remains the same. If they had gotten the number one overall pick and this was the result, he should be fired. If Embiid hadn't had a setback to his injury and this was the result, he should be fired. If all the draft picks he was supposed to get had kicked in and this was the result, he should be fired. But none of those things happened. There was some high percentage moves that hit bad luck. However, there are clear backups that haven't kicked in.

With Embiid back, with Dario Saric in this country, there are only two extra moves that are outstanding that I'm keeping my eye on. If the Lakers end up with a top four pick this year and the Sixers miss out on number one again, then that's another year of bad luck. I'd look at next year where the Lakers pick is no longer top four protected. At that point, the Sixers will have run out of all excuses. The other thing to keep in mind is the Sixers have blown a lot of fourth quarter leads this season. While 50 point losses to the Spurs make the headlines, it's these other games that suggest something different. If they held onto their leads in half their games, they'd have a much different record. Obviously, blowing leads is a bad thing in itself, but it shows the team is either not as bad as their record or fighting really hard to be.

In other words, Sixers fans aren't willing to accept being terrible forever. But they are willing to say "yeah, that move made sense but this thing happened that excuses why it hasn't worked yet." And let's face it, if Hinkie were gone, year one of Colangelo's reign would be terrible too.

 

[gblews]

^ Acknowledged, but I think, beside the point. The issue at hand is the way the league and apparently 6ers' management, view Hinkie's overall plan. By bringing in Colangelo, it appears they (NBA and 6er management) see the plan as detrimental to the league as well as the team, regardless of whether or not it's working.

In fact, how can anyone tell if it's working? The team is even worse than last season and the goal appears to be the same; lose as many games as possible.

If Embiid turns out to be a mistake, does the team then have to tank an extra year to make up for that mistake? i'll bet these are the kinds of questions the league has been asking.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think, if Embiid is shown to be a mistake, that's when Hinkie has run out of rope (more accurately, when the latest set of draft trades come in and Saric comes over or chooses not to come over). I think the idea is, when you take five chances, you expect one or two might fail and you see how the rest pan out. If all fail, you don't get more chances. To me, all the chess pieces are on the board. If Colangelo is there to remind Hinkie that those pieces better pan out, that's fine. But I think we're at a point where I'd still rather Hinkie carry out the plan he's been doing rather than have them reverse course once again because who knows what could happen then.

Awhile back, the Sixers literally traded away Kyle Korver for nothing (I forget the details, I think it was an option for a second round pick they never exercised). It may have been to clear up cap space for an aging Elton Brand that didn't pan out. While Korver wasn't as good then as he is now, his talent was still obvious and he seemed to be a valuable piece.

When Sam Hinkie came in, he was able to point to all the stupid trades and bad decisions made by prior people. He pointed out his strategy, which was essentially to buy low and sell high, trading for picks, and, yeah, playing some really bad Basketball. But the idea was not to trade away good players for high-risk, past their prime, free agents. Instead, building through the draft would ensure a good core that could be built around.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

9 win Milwaukee is the team that finally drops Golden State?

GS must've been worn out from all that winning. The 72-10 record is still pretty likely to be broken though.

 

[gblews]

Well needless to say I am VERY happy about the Warriors' loss. That means one of the league's most hallowed records will remain with the Lakers. If the Dub had tied the record or broken it, I do believe their streak should have had an asterisk, in fact even without breaking the record they would have an asterisk because their streak was set over 2 seasons.

Actually, I think the Bulls; 72-10 record is a bit more difficult that the Lakers' 33 game streak. Imagine, we haven't even hit Christmas and in order to tie that record, the Dubs can only lose 9 more games. There are still 35, 40 games left to play. I just don't think the Warriors have the focus or the drive to get that record.

However, they do appear to be poised to repeat as champs and there is really no streak or record that beats that.

 

[gblews]

When Sam Hinkie came in, he was able to point to all the stupid trades and bad decisions made by prior people. He pointed out his strategy, which was essentially to buy low and sell high, trading for picks, and, yeah, playing some really bad Basketball. But the idea was not to trade away good players for high-risk, past their prime, free agents. Instead, building through the draft would ensure a good core that could be built around.

You know, it really doesn't take that much to point out the mistakes of others, especially after the fact. Even fans can do that, to an extent.

The words you use above, though on the surface don't sound like it, translate to "tanking" in practice. Since you can't trade for picks alone, what Hinke has done is trade for young not so good players with short term deals with whatever picks others are willing to throw in. There are no veterans on the team. No veterans and mostly young, and I mean YOUNG players is a recipe for losing in the NBA.

The Celtics, surprisingly, have done a much better job of rebuilding through the draft that the 6ers. The C's rare at least respectable in the east and are on the rise.

There isn't a player on the 6ers team who doesn't know that they aren't supposed to win. The coaches know it, Philly fans, and all around the league and the media knows the 6ers are supposed to lose. The bad thing is, there does not appear that Hinkie has an alternative to tanking, nor does there appear to be an end in sight.

You keep wondering if Hinkie's plan will or won't succeed. But there is something bigger going on. The league is hoping that it doesn't succeed because Hinkie's plan is toxic to the NBA. And by agreeing to hire Colangelo, Philly management is in tacit agreement with the league.

I think one of two things will happen; we will either see a tangible "adjustment" to Hinkie's plan, or we will be reading about Hinkie's resignation during the off season, or maybe even before.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The words you use above, though on the surface don't sound like it, translate to "tanking" in practice. Since you can't trade for picks alone, what Hinke has done is trade for young not so good players with short term deals with whatever picks others are willing to throw in.

Do I agree tanking is a big part of it? Sure, but I think that's part of the strategy for every team that's terrible right now. Do you think the Lakers hope to win 25 games (which is probably good enough for fifth from the bottom). If they do, they lose their draft pick this year. I think if they're going to do that, they're going to try and get a top four pick. But I also think it's more. Trading a pick when there's not much of value to take for future picks is a smart move. Fleecing the Sacramento Kings last year (which is what the Sixers did) is a smart move. Tanking is clearly a part, but the key is also to be smart with the moves they actually have.

BTW, I looked every team with 50 losses in the past three years (counting the 2012-2013 season). This conveniently came out to about eight teams a season (2012-2013 had a 9th team, the Timberwolves, with 51 losses). I also looked at the bottom eight this season. Of those teams, both the Lakers and Sixers are in the bottom eight each season. Of those teams, the Lakers have finished worse every season (when it comes to ranking, the Sixers finished better last season). The Sixers have never finished last in any of their "tanking seasons." In 2012-2013, neither the Sixers nor the Lakers finished in the bottom eight (the Sixers finished 9th in the Conference, the Lakers, I believe, were the 7th seed). However, one team has done so in all four season: The Sacramento Kings.

So I always wonder why the Sixers are the only ones seen as "tanking." Are the Kings just so incompetent that they get a pass? What about the Lakers? I'm not counting the T-Wolves, Pistons, and Magic who all had three appearances as well.

 

[Corran Horn]

The Kings have bounced around the country and haven't won anything in 60+ years.

The Sixers were a cornerstone franchise, powerhouse in the 80s, and are now an embarrassment. Anything they do is magnified.

 

[Timby]

Also, the thing about the Lakers is that Jim Buss is without question calling the shots now (Kupchak seems like a figurehead at best) and he doesn't have a tenth of the business or basketball smarts that his father had.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The Kings have bounced around the country and haven't won anything in 60+ years.

The Sixers were a cornerstone franchise, powerhouse in the 80s, and are now an embarrassment. Anything they do is magnified.

Yeah, but 1983 was a long time ago. Since then, they had a brief period of success with Charles Barkley and a brief period of success with Allen Iverson. In both cases, the league was vastly different, in neither case did they win the championship and in Barkley's case, they never even made the finals. Then followed seven seasons without even making the playoffs where you had great players like Charles (the other Shack) Shakleford, Clarence Weatherspoon, Shawn Bradley, Derrick Coleman. In the 93 they drafted the second overall pick (Bradley), in 94 they had the sixth overall pick (Sharone Wright), in 95 they had the third overall pick (Jerry Stackhouse), in 96 they drafted Allen Iverson first overall, and in 97 they drafted Keith Van Horn third. I could go on because they missed the playoffs in 1998 as well.

I've seen terrible Sixers teams that were in the lottery for nearly a decade. And when they got out in 2000 and 2001, they were back in by 2004. The difference is this team actually seems to have a plan on how to keep them out of the lottery once they get that core together. Each one of their moves seems calculated to actually do something. I have faith that, if this management drafted 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 1st, and 3rd, they'd have more overall success.

Teams like the Kings get a pass because they have their heads up their asses. I don't know why that's better for the NBA. If the Sixers just looked like such incompetent management that they would be in the lottery for seven years but had no plan to get out, would that be more forgivable? Is it because they look like they have a plan that it's different?

 

[Corran Horn]

Is it because they look like they have a plan that it's different?

The NBA didn't force the old man on them because it looks like they have a plan.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Why hasn't the NBA forced anyone on the Kings?

 

[Corran Horn]

Why hasn't the NBA forced anyone on the Kings?

If I had to guess - smaller fanbase and ticket prices? They were pushing to relocate for a few years so they didn't want to muddy the water?

 

[Timby]

Why hasn't the NBA forced anyone on the Kings?

The Kings are dysfunctional but they aren't actively tanking and it's not like Ranadivé is having issues making payroll or anything. They're just all crazy.

 

[gblews]

Do I agree tanking is a big part of it? Sure, but I think that's part of the strategy for every team that's terrible right now. Do you think the Lakers hope to win 25 games (which is probably good enough for fifth from the bottom).

I think you may be missing the point. The 6ers aren't under league scrutiny right now because they have tanked a season. They are under scrutiny because 1) they have tanked multiple seasons, 2) there is no indication that they have any intention of NOT tanking any time soon, 3) ALL of their efforts have gone toward losing (this is a big one), 4) because EVERYONE is aware of all this.

The league feels the need to intervene because they believe that the 6ers plan of tanking apparently until the next MJ comes long, is detrimental to the NBA.

BTW, the Lakers, much to my chagrin, are NOT tanking this year. The team had every intention of making a run at the 8th spot. That's why we signed 3 veterans to big money multi year contracts. You could argue that we tanked the previous two, but I could argue that we really didn't what with all of the injuries. I like to say that this year we are "Byron Scotting".