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Star Trek 2009 timeline disruption, technology alteration

Starships wouldn't necessarily be useless, they would likely be delegated to different functions and wouldn't really function inside or around any inhabited system (what with planetary shields, highly advanced sensors, automated orbital defences, etc. etc.).
That's a huge leap to make. While all the high technologies of Star Trek are subspace based, saying sensors would have super range just because the transporters have super range strikes me as a baseless conclusion. Whether they can get around it is a different matter, because it should be trivial to beam a probe to a location, and either beam that probe back or have it beam itself back with a portable transporter of its own. We've only seen transwarp beam-out.

There is only one way starships would not be obsolete, and that is if transwarp beaming has a range limit. In STID we see Khan beam from Earth to Kronos, which ENT says is 90 light years. NuTrek's warp drives seem to be extremely fast, so if 90 ly is really the max range, then Starships don't have much to worry about, and the new film could even place such a limit on the transporters. It would still be massively game changing having instant interstellar travel by transporter for individuals and truckloads of cargo, but ships would still be the mainstay for pushing frontiers.

However, 90 light years in 5 seconds every 5 seconds (just spit balling some numbers) is far faster than 90 light years in a matter of minutes, or hours. If that were the case, the real trick is then to create a portable transporter capable of transporting a starship to replace the warp drive for interstellar travel, if not replace the warp drive completely. If we go by the portable transwarp transporter and Khan, then, and if the relative sizes of device to beamed amount hold, then such a Starship might be 50% reactor and transporter, and 50% everything else.

Apparently it isn't as big as I thought, and it was left behind.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Portable_transwarp_beaming_device
http://www.trekbbs.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 
Sulu also made a very basic mistake in the 2009 movie of not disengaging the external inertial dampener as Spock said - though you would think that inertial dampeners are a GOOD thing, because they are supposed to protect the crew against extreme velocities that would otherwise turn the crew into mush.
For that matter, why would starships have 'external inertial dampeners'?
Wouldn't a more sensible question from Spock be something like: 'Have you disengaged the Warp drive standby mode?' (after all, the ship was docked and just departing the Starbase... so you wouldn't want a rookie or even someone by accident to accelerate to Warp through a Starbase).

Well, this all depends on what an "external inertial dampener" is. Presumably, from the construction of the joke and choice of technobabble, it's a starship version of a parking brake. At a guess, I'd say it's something, maybe a low-power tractor beam or something in the warp field or gravity systems, that locks the ship on to the nearest object as a reference point, to prevent accidents during precision maneuvering and docking caused by the ship zooming around at interplanetary or interstellar speeds.

Could be the external inertial dampener is the reason why 1/4 and full impulse power were such low speeds in the Spacedock scenes in TSFS and TUC. The Enterprises and Excelsior sure weren't blasting through the space doors at a quarter of a quarter of lightspeed (18,665 km/s).
 
Well, this all depends on what an "external inertial dampener" is. Presumably, from the construction of the joke and choice of technobabble, it's a starship version of a parking brake. At a guess, I'd say it's something, maybe a low-power tractor beam or something in the warp field or gravity systems, that locks the ship on to the nearest object as a reference point, to prevent accidents during precision maneuvering and docking caused by the ship zooming around at interplanetary or interstellar speeds.

Could be the external inertial dampener is the reason why 1/4 and full impulse power were such low speeds in the Spacedock scenes in TSFS and TUC. The Enterprises and Excelsior sure weren't blasting through the space doors at a quarter of a quarter of lightspeed (18,665 km/s).
Voyager ran its warp field in such a reverse manner that it anchored (they used that term) itself in space to better withstand a space storm. Since warp fields can reduce apparent mass, I believe Voyager increased its mass dramatically to achieve the anchoring effect. It stands to reason the external inertial dampener is a warp field (either generated by the warp engines or impulse engine) working in that special mass increasing manner.

Increased mass would mean slower acceleration, so it could account for the decreased performance of the impulse engines in the Spacedock scene. Although, the same might be achieved by just not having mass lightening in effect at all. The movies support the idea of impulse being warp augmented with it being called Warp 0.25, and so on, when accelerating sublight.
 
Starships wouldn't necessarily be useless, they would likely be delegated to different functions and wouldn't really function inside or around any inhabited system (what with planetary shields, highly advanced sensors, automated orbital defences, etc. etc.).
That's a huge leap to make. While all the high technologies of Star Trek are subspace based, saying sensors would have super range just because the transporters have super range strikes me as a baseless conclusion. Whether they can get around it is a different matter, because it should be trivial to beam a probe to a location, and either beam that probe back or have it beam itself back with a portable transporter of its own. We've only seen transwarp beam-out.

There is only one way starships would not be obsolete, and that is if transwarp beaming has a range limit. In STID we see Khan beam from Earth to Kronos, which ENT says is 90 light years. NuTrek's warp drives seem to be extremely fast, so if 90 ly is really the max range, then Starships don't have much to worry about, and the new film could even place such a limit on the transporters. It would still be massively game changing having instant interstellar travel by transporter for individuals and truckloads of cargo, but ships would still be the mainstay for pushing frontiers.

However, 90 light years in 5 seconds every 5 seconds (just spit balling some numbers) is far faster than 90 light years in a matter of minutes, or hours. If that were the case, the real trick is then to create a portable transporter capable of transporting a starship to replace the warp drive for interstellar travel, if not replace the warp drive completely. If we go by the portable transwarp transporter and Khan, then, and if the relative sizes of device to beamed amount hold, then such a Starship might be 50% reactor and transporter, and 50% everything else.

Apparently it isn't as big as I thought, and it was left behind.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Portable_transwarp_beaming_device

That isn't the only reason to keep starships around. One of the things that I have noticed with transporter technology is that initial changes in the tech come with great health risks to the user (ENT-tech is brand new, and someone keeps beamed up with tree bits in them). TNG had an episode where super soldiers used interphase beaming (I think that's the term) but the long term health effect was to slowly breakdown the user's body.

Transwarp beaming could have a similar, negative, effect, with prolonged use, either to the user or the subspace itself.
 
That isn't the only reason to keep starships around. One of the things that I have noticed with transporter technology is that initial changes in the tech come with great health risks to the user (ENT-tech is brand new, and someone keeps beamed up with tree bits in them). TNG had an episode where super soldiers used interphase beaming (I think that's the term) but the long term health effect was to slowly breakdown the user's body.

Transwarp beaming could have a similar, negative, effect, with prolonged use, either to the user or the subspace itself.
It could, but I don't think transwarp beaming will end up with a mystery health effect.

Transporters in Enterprise were very new, still being worked out as a life form rated conveyance. The dimensional transporter's scrambling of DNA was a known flaw from the beginning. Transwarp beaming seems to be nothing more than normal beaming with longer range, Scotty just reprograms normal transporters and they suddenly beam lightyears away.
 
That isn't the only reason to keep starships around. One of the things that I have noticed with transporter technology is that initial changes in the tech come with great health risks to the user (ENT-tech is brand new, and someone keeps beamed up with tree bits in them). TNG had an episode where super soldiers used interphase beaming (I think that's the term) but the long term health effect was to slowly breakdown the user's body.

Transwarp beaming could have a similar, negative, effect, with prolonged use, either to the user or the subspace itself.
It could, but I don't think transwarp beaming will end up with a mystery health effect.

Transporters in Enterprise were very new, still being worked out as a life form rated conveyance. The dimensional transporter's scrambling of DNA was a known flaw from the beginning. Transwarp beaming seems to be nothing more than normal beaming with longer range, Scotty just reprograms normal transporters and they suddenly beam lightyears away.

It can have whatever effect the writers want. In TOS beaming from one part of the ship to another part was quite dangerous, versus TNG where Wesley can reprogram the transporter to evade security.

I agree the tech is always advancing, but the Abrams films seem to emphasize more weapons tech, rather than transporters. The whole standing still while transporting is not something that has really appeared before. It seems to be that transporter technology is at a different place than other series.
 
How is "finding" Titan different from traveling to Vulcan? In Vulcan's case they arrived blind to the planet and they didn't appear to do anything different for Titan.
Which is also a good point: if nothing else, they had to at least be able to see VULCAN in order to arrive their safely. They're not flying blind, just too fast to see any details (and warp speed is very, VERY fast).

Question would be are they seeing Vulcan or merely navigating to where there star charts say Vulcan should be?
Even with charts, you still meed the capacity to perform midcourse corrections to arrive safely. At those speeds, even a small perturbation of their trajectory can change their final position by thousands of kilometers; warping into orbit of a planet, that basically makes the difference between "We have arrived safely in orbit of Vulcan" and "BOOM"

If they were truly going "too fast" then one of the options Pike should have exercised was to slow down so he can get a good scan.
This is true, and actually it's exactly what Kirk was suggesting they should do. The main reason Pike didn't do it was because he didn't REALLY believe Kirk's warning.

He DID believe that something fishy was going on; the rest of the fleet wasn't answering, and Vulcan had gone radio silent, so clearly not everything was as he expected. But Pike didn't really believe that there would be Romulans waiting for them in orbit of Vulcan, or that anything serious had happened to the fleet.

I agree that they seem to have only the ability to use their communications in a manner of detecting things around them. It would appear that in 09 Trek, their ability to sense things was limited to direction-finding a subspace? radio transmission but they could not actively see what's in their path.
I submit this may have been a limitation in TOS as well: it seems that when traveling at warp, there are more than a few instances where the first they realize something is in their path is the moment that something starts bumping into their deflectors and the big red light starts going off on Sulu's console.

This would seem to include the Great Barrier, which didn't register on their sensors AT ALL even after they crashed into it, and also the Klingon ship in "Errand of Mercy" whose torpedoes triggered their deflectors before they had a fix on the ship itself.

In TSFS, Sulu sees the energy surge at the same time Kirk does.
KIRK: There. That distortion. See it?
SULU: Yes sir. It's getting larger as we close in.
So here's the interesting connection - in TSFS they can't see the cloaked ship until they're close enough to see the distortion on the viewing screen. The Enterprise's sensors and computers are unable to see or identify it as a cloaked ship. This Sulu sees an "energy surge."
You're forgetting the audio from that scene -- again, same as Grissom -- where the feed from Chekov's short-range scan is being piped over the speakers. What Kirk is doing when he points:

"There! That distortion, see it?"

is pointing out the source of the weird signal Chekov's just started picking up. So Sulu is judging by his ears and his eyes and (possibly) by the sensor readout on his helm console. He comes to the same conclusion as Grissom's communications officer, who made that determination from the sound alone.

Also worthy of note: the distortion was visible on the screen WELL before Kirk noticed it. They were both looking at the screen and the helm console wondering "Where the hell is that coming from?" when Kirk noticed the distortion and realized it was relevant.

In STID (and arguably 09 Trek), the Enterprise can't see anything at warp speed.
They can see quite a bit, it seems, just not in any detail. That seems to be more or less consistent with TOS and the TOS movies but inconsistent with TNG+. I'm not sure that's even a problem.

In STID, the Enterprise's sensors and computers are unable to see or identify the Vengeance while at warp...
First of all, once again, what makes you think the Enterprise's COMPUTERS would have been capable of doing this automatically? That's not something that EVER happened in TOS; it was almost exclusively SPOCK'S domain, or sometimes Chekov's when the ship in question was a friendly vessel broadcasting a transponder.

Second of all, the sensors OBVIOUSLY saw Vengeance coming, otherwise Sulu wouldn't have had a sensor reading to not-understand. The question, again, is why would Sulu automatically interpret those sensor readings as something all of his training tells him is basically impossible? You keep implying that he SHOULD make that conclusion, but you never explain why.

To STID Enterprise it looks like a cloaked starship decloaking out of the blue :)

Considering at this point in his career Sulu's never actually seen a cloaking device in use, you just might be right.
 
That's a huge leap to make. While all the high technologies of Star Trek are subspace based, saying sensors would have super range just because the transporters have super range strikes me as a baseless conclusion. Whether they can get around it is a different matter, because it should be trivial to beam a probe to a location, and either beam that probe back or have it beam itself back with a portable transporter of its own. We've only seen transwarp beam-out.

It is not baseless really.
You need to know where you are transporting to. You also need to account for planetary bodies moving through space, etc.
Developing TW beaming sort of also implies development of sensors with similar capabilities and range.

But then again, Federation starships already are capable of scanning within a radius of hundreds of light years in the 24th century (and dozens perhaps in the 23rd ?).
For the Galaxy class - I think its around 250 Lightyears, whereas Voyager (Intrepid) was able to scan on one occasion in a radius of 40 Lightyears (but they were actively tracking for nearby Borg ships that would account for 7 of 9 getting those flashes, which might imply this wasn't their maximum range)... whereas 7 of 9 was able to scan as far as 2500 Lightyears using Astrometric Sensors that used a merger of Borg and SF tech into one (resulting in 10 times more accurate mapping technology according to what Kim stated).

So, technically speaking, Starfleet in the 24th century already has access to large scanning ranges in real time... so beaming to nearby star systems that are dozens or hundreds of Ly's away would seem to be more than viable and expanding from there (you would also imagine that any planet they TW beam to, the away teams would create a separate TW beaming system with sensors and transporter pads (sort of like subspace boosters).

However, given that TW beaming is likely subspace based technology (like everything else in Trek), it is highly probable that this technique might be adapted to create TW sensors (or basically turn existing subspace sensors into TW sensors).

There is only one way starships would not be obsolete, and that is if transwarp beaming has a range limit. In STID we see Khan beam from Earth to Kronos, which ENT says is 90 light years. NuTrek's warp drives seem to be extremely fast, so if 90 ly is really the max range, then Starships don't have much to worry about, and the new film could even place such a limit on the transporters. It would still be massively game changing having instant interstellar travel by transporter for individuals and truckloads of cargo, but ships would still be the mainstay for pushing frontiers.

As I stated in my reply, starships could simply be delegated to different duties in light of TW beaming such as deep space exploration, so they wouldn't necessarily be around star systems all too much, given that all of the supply transfers, etc. could be done via beaming (though, this would be sensible for new colonies, because I don't see as to why every colonized or already populated planet in the Federation couldn't be completely self-sufficient - they certainly have the technology to do it, therefore, there would be little to 0 need for actual trade routes, except for people transporting from one place to the other, and in case of disasters if crucial equipment is damaged and supplies have been depleted as a result).

However, 90 light years in 5 seconds every 5 seconds (just spit balling some numbers) is far faster than 90 light years in a matter of minutes, or hours. If that were the case, the real trick is then to create a portable transporter capable of transporting a starship to replace the warp drive for interstellar travel, if not replace the warp drive completely. If we go by the portable transwarp transporter and Khan, then, and if the relative sizes of device to beamed amount hold, then such a Starship might be 50% reactor and transporter, and 50% everything else.

For emergency situations, transporting a starship 90 Ly's away could be viable (at least to a location that is relatively close to the emergency), but you'd need to have a system like the 'spatial trajector' which the Sikari had in Voyager (space folding based technology), and it would likely have to be situated in a system with a planet, or a deep space station.

But this kind of system would likely take time to set up around the Federation... probably about 6 months to a year or two (that's if every member planet creates a TW starship beaming system in orbit of their own planet, or in their star system - which would likely be something along the lines of an automated station).

Though I doubt the writers would actually think of this, and even though Starfleet in the 23rd century got TW beaming, it might be initially contained to transporting people, technology and raw materials to wherever they need to go (possibly even shuttles and workbees).
Actual starship transportation which seems to be more complex than a shuttle (at least in the 23rd century where shuttles don't seem to have Warp drive - at least it seems they don't, whereas in the 24th, shuttles are basically mini starships with all similar complexities of the large ships with Warp engines).
 
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I'm going to posit something--raise the flag and see if anyone salutes it--to steal a quote.

There are deeper layers of subspace.

The farther down the rabbit hole you go--the faster you go--but the more blind you become.

This might explain the really crappy holograms of Star Wars, and better readings Trek ships have being more in-universe..shallower.

Howse that grab ya?

Now in terms of transwarp beaming--I'm going to say that it is easier than it sounds. Something at speed is going to stick out like a sore thumb in subspace--actually easier to lock onto--and couple with.

Thoughts?
 
That's a huge leap to make. While all the high technologies of Star Trek are subspace based, saying sensors would have super range just because the transporters have super range strikes me as a baseless conclusion. Whether they can get around it is a different matter, because it should be trivial to beam a probe to a location, and either beam that probe back or have it beam itself back with a portable transporter of its own. We've only seen transwarp beam-out.

It is not baseless really.
You need to know where you are transporting to. You also need to account for planetary bodies moving through space, etc.
Developing TW beaming sort of also implies development of sensors with similar capabilities and range.
No, developing PRACTICAL transwarp beaming implies this. It is never stated that the technique was ever developed into something practical, and in all probability, it wasn't.

If those ultra long-range sensors never fully develop, then the transwarp beaming system has to have some kind of infrastructure with transwarp beaming devices at both ends, senders and receivers. This would be a system similar to the Iconian Gateways or the Stargates of... well, Stargate.

Even then, it's questionable how useful transwarp beaming would actually be for most uses. You could transport people and objects over long distances, but the ability to establish and maintain the network would depend on a starship. Likewise, a hostile environment without a starship in orbit is not an ideal place to plant a receiving pad; you end up beaming your people into a death trap, and they're killed/captured before they have a chance to radio back and warn people not to beam anyone else over.

But then again, Federation starships already are capable of scanning within a radius of hundreds of light years in the 24th century (and dozens perhaps in the 23rd ?).
An ordinary radiotelescope is capable of scanning hundreds of light years even now. We can take all kinds of detailed readings of distant solar systems already.

23rd century sensors have a higher resolution, but it's hard to say how much higher. It is probably not high enough to reliably send a transporter signal several light years away, though.

For the Galaxy class - I think its around 250 Lightyears
The scanning range of any sensor device is effectively infinite.

The resolution of any sensor device is finite, however, so when we speak of "range" we are speaking of basically how close an object of a given size has to be in order to be detected.

If you mean that the Enterprise-D is capable of identifying and tracking individual life forms 250ly away, I would need to see some evidence of that.
 
No, developing PRACTICAL transwarp beaming implies this. It is never stated that the technique was ever developed into something practical, and in all probability, it wasn't.

But for all intense and purposes, Spock handed Starfleet in the 23rd century the formula for practical TW beaming.
Scotty and Kirk beamed from a planetoid to a starship that was moving faster than light.
I would imagine that beaming from one planet to the other would be less complex.
However, Starfleet is quite cautious. They would likely want to study the capability for a while until they put it in full spread use.

If those ultra long-range sensors never fully develop, then the transwarp beaming system has to have some kind of infrastructure with transwarp beaming devices at both ends, senders and receivers. This would be a system similar to the Iconian Gateways or the Stargates of... well, Stargate.

That's what I said when I mentioned the away teams beaming to other planets where they would have to set up TW beaming stations/hubs that would act like subspace signal boosters.
Simply transmit the technical specs to all SF facilities on all Federation worlds, begin construction, and after roughly 6 months to a year of consistent testing, use it for as much as possible inside the Federation and then expand.

Even then, it's questionable how useful transwarp beaming would actually be for most uses. You could transport people and objects over long distances, but the ability to establish and maintain the network would depend on a starship. Likewise, a hostile environment without a starship in orbit is not an ideal place to plant a receiving pad; you end up beaming your people into a death trap, and they're killed/captured before they have a chance to radio back and warn people not to beam anyone else over.

Which is why Starships wouldn't likely be obsolete as HISHE tried to imply.
You would ideally scan the planet from a nearby planetary system with regular sensors, beam automated probes to scout the area and say 3d printers to automatically construct subspace relay stations/boosters and a transporter pad. Once the initial area was surveyed and deemed safe, the away team would follow.

An ordinary radiotelescope is capable of scanning hundreds of light years even now. We can take all kinds of detailed readings of distant solar systems already.

23rd century sensors have a higher resolution, but it's hard to say how much higher. It is probably not high enough to reliably send a transporter signal several light years away, though.

Uhm, I don't think radiotelescopes and subspace sensors are the same thing.
Sensors work along the lines of subspace in TOS, and they do have a pretty far range. No reason to think 2009 Starfleet would be less advanced (actually, they would likely be more advanced). Whatever you can see through them on the other end, it will likely be enough to get a 'general idea' of an area - and it would be far more detailed and informative than a radiotelescope could ever hope to provide.

Let's not forget the NX-01 sensors in the 22nd century were able to read DNA on an alien ship which was at FTL and millions/billions of km away.
Doing the same to gain at least a baseline biological analyses would be more than doable over multiple lightyears in the 23rd century (especially if you have something along the lines like the Argus Array which would be a completely dedicated deep space 'telescope' - incidentally loaded with subspace scanning technology which would likely put any starship to shame).

The scanning range of any sensor device is effectively infinite.
I was referring in real time, or close to real time to estimate planetary shift, conditions, and other factors the computer can keep track of.

The resolution of any sensor device is finite, however, so when we speak of "range" we are speaking of basically how close an object of a given size has to be in order to be detected.

Indeed, but the resolution of sensors in the 23rd century would likely be far superior than those on the NX-01 when scanning lightyears away - incidentally, this is what they were doing relatively regularly in TOS... and of course in TNG, DS9 and VOY (far more easily of course).

If you mean that the Enterprise-D is capable of identifying and tracking individual life forms 250ly away, I would need to see some evidence of that.

Not necessarily life forms, but it would likely be able to ascertain whether a planet is class M or not, and general conditions on the planets' surface - for detailed analysis, they would probably have to be closer.

Incidentally, I think that both the Enterprise-D and Voyager had various instances of sensors being able to find dilithium and other minerals over multiple lightyears away.

Of course, as TNG progressed, technology was progressively dumbed down, so Astrometric sensors basically outshone regular sensors in early TNG for example (which were quite powerful on starships).
 
An engineer on the Kelvin may have gone on to be a part of the Constitution design team, one who advocated a "less is more" ideology that would give the class a far simpler and more elegant aesthetic.
 
This is the equivalent of someone on the ground *hearing the sound* of an approaching airplane and has to wait a bit before he can figure out which direction the sound is coming from.
A more appropriate analogy would be more like hearing an approaching aeroplane but having 0 knowledge of what they are hearing in the first place.

No, Sulu knew it was a starship coming at them. Here is the dialogue and the scene from youtube.
SULU: Proximity alert, sir. There is a ship at warp heading right for us.
KIRK: Klingons?
KHAN: At warp...No Kirk, we both know who it is.
SULU: I don't think so. It's not coming at us from Kronos.
It's 10 seconds from the time Sulu calls Kirk to when Sulu is able to identify which direction the ship is coming from. This tells us that the Enterprise, while stopped, can detect an incoming ship at warp but is unable to immediately tell from which direction it is coming from.
 
Question would be are they seeing Vulcan or merely navigating to where there star charts say Vulcan should be?
Even with charts, you still meed the capacity to perform midcourse corrections to arrive safely.

The question then is can the ships from 09 Trek make a midcourse correction, other than a stop, while at warp?
SPOCK: By recommending a full stop mid-warp during a rescue mission?
Why is it such a big deal to make a stop? At most it'd slow them down a minute or two.

This is true, and actually it's exactly what Kirk was suggesting they should do. The main reason Pike didn't do it was because he didn't REALLY believe Kirk's warning.

Or it simply was not an option to slow down or even drop out of warp some distance away. If they really could see what was in their path, then a midcourse correction would be a trivial thing to do (something that was not an issue in TOS.)

I submit this may have been a limitation in TOS as well: it seems that when traveling at warp, there are more than a few instances where the first they realize something is in their path is the moment that something starts bumping into their deflectors and the big red light starts going off on Sulu's console.

How is that a limitation in TOS when they not only detected the "non-communicating" obstacles while at warp, they even had plenty of time to react to it?

This is a far cry different from 09 Trek where they drop out of warp into a debris field that they had no idea was there.

This would seem to include the Great Barrier, which didn't register on their sensors AT ALL even after they crashed into it,

Are you referring to ST5? Where they are clearly seeing the barrier on visual (obviously their visual sensors)?
CHEKOV: We have no instrument readings. Is it there or isn't it?
and also the Klingon ship in "Errand of Mercy" whose torpedoes triggered their deflectors before they had a fix on the ship itself.

We don't know the speed of the Enterprise at this point and the sensors correctly picked up the approaching Klingon ship who opened fired on the Enterprise. The Enterprise returned fire without delay in locking on. How is this a problem again?
SULU: Captain, the automatic deflector screen just popped on. Body approaching.
KIRK: Configuration, Mister Sulu...
...
KIRK: Phaser banks, lock on. Return fire. Maintain firing rate. One hundred percent dispersal pattern.
You're forgetting the audio from that scene -- again, same as Grissom -- where the feed from Chekov's short-range scan is being piped over the speakers. What Kirk is doing when he points:

"There! That distortion, see it?"

Did Kirk say, "There! That distortion, see it *and hear it*?!"

How is this different from STID Enterprise being unable to see a ship behind them at warp since it's just like trying to see a invisible ship at sublight in TSFS?

In STID, the Enterprise's sensors and computers are unable to see or identify the Vengeance while at warp...
First of all, once again, what makes you think the Enterprise's COMPUTERS would have been capable of doing this automatically? That's not something that EVER happened in TOS;

Really? From "The Immunity Syndrome" where Spock is telling Kirk that computers are coming up dry but, they are automatically trying to identify stuff since the ship automatically activated the deflectors. So you're basically saying the 09 Enterprise is even more primitive than the TOS Enterprise as well?
SPOCK: I am well aware of that, Captain, but the computers contain nothing on this phenomenon. It is beyond our experience, and the new information is not yet significant.
SPOCK: It is not a galactic nebula such as the Coal Sack, and since our deflectors were activated by it, it would seem to be some form of energy, but nothing our sensors can identify.
Second of all, the sensors OBVIOUSLY saw Vengeance coming, otherwise Sulu wouldn't have had a sensor reading to not-understand.

That's like saying the TSFS Enterprise's sensors OBVIOUSLY saw the cloaked BOP, otherwise Kirk and Sulu wouldn't have had a sensor reading on their visual screen to see the energy surge.

The question, again, is why would Sulu automatically interpret those sensor readings as something all of his training tells him is basically impossible? You keep implying that he SHOULD make that conclusion, but you never explain why.

The real question is how do you know it is "basically impossible"? All we know is:

1. Sulu said, "Captain, I'm getting a reading that I don't understand."
2. Almost ten seconds later (after Marcus explaining that the Vengeance can catch them at warp) the Enterprise does absolutely nothing to avoid the attack which get them knocked out of the warp tunnel.

If Sulu said there was a ship behind them and he didn't think it was possible or it was a bad reading, it would answer some questions. Instead, it points to the 09 Enterprise's lack of sensing ability at warp.

To STID Enterprise it looks like a cloaked starship decloaking out of the blue :)
Considering at this point in his career Sulu's never actually seen a cloaking device in use, you just might be right.

Huh? It's part of Starfleet training in 09 Trek? Even if he didn't take the Kobyashi Maru test it would have been taught at some point to him :)
MCCOY: Three more Klingon warbirds decloaking and targeting our ship.

Of course, post-Vengeance, they should have the ability to see at warp. How much they can see will be up for more debate :D
 
This whole discussion verges on the absurd when the two things where the "new" Starfleet is accused of worse sensing capabilities than the "old" are so unlikely to have been properly witnessed by any set of heroes: TOS, nuTrek, TNG, CSI, SG1, whatever.

In both cases, the heroes faced things unfamiliar to them, with explicit features to make them difficult to see or comprehend. A futuristic drill below the Vulcan horizon, jamming communications, transporters and whatnot; a secret warship coming in impossibly fast, and designed to triumph at that very thing. How could ShatnerKirk have fared any better? It's not a matter of tech at all, but of dramatic plausibility, and the parameters and variables on that are universe-independent. Trying to see tech differences there takes quite some doing, but why even bother?

There's no running trend of Pinesensors being less capable than Shatnersensors, or Picardsensors, or whatever. Sometimes they do better, sometimes worse, and on the average they fill the exact same dramatic niche.

What is dramatically different so far, apart from lightning-fast turbolifts that don't cater for conversations, is the ability to get from the Klingon border to Earth in seconds; there was dramatically nothing new about the trip to Vulcan in STXI, or even the trip from Earth to Qo'noS in ST:ID. That's how Trek has always been, facilitating rapid pacing even in sedate 1960s style stories when there's a need.

But sensing is exactly as it has always been: no realtime spotting of distant things as subtle as a planet disappearing, some capacity for noticing very energetic events and deliberate communications even when one isn't specifically looking, good capacity for observing active technology if one knows exactly when, where and for what to look, and basically no way to spot wreckage until one is on top of it.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If those ultra long-range sensors never fully develop, then the transwarp beaming system has to have some kind of infrastructure with transwarp beaming devices at both ends.

Even then, it's questionable how useful transwarp beaming would actually be for most uses. You could transport people and objects over long distances, but the ability to establish and maintain the network would depend on a starship.
In any case, having a receiving pad only indicates a preceding knowledge of the destination, something which can be easily had by way of a probe, rather than the more costly effort of fixed infrastructure. The only need for a transporter at the destination is to beam back to the origin, because we have yet to see an ability of transwarp transporters to beam objects back to themselves.

Ships might make sense for going outside the range of beaming, assuming there is any practical limit in range. If there is a range limit, then there is a speed limit, and the ship has to exceed that speed to be practical. But, if the speed of beaming from one pad to the next over and over exceeds that of warp ships then warp loses. The only way warp still makes sense is if in trail blazing ships at warp are faster than the time it takes to place a new periphery pad, and for that pad to beam yet another one out, over and over.

The only remaining practical use of a ship would be as a mobile sensor platform, which could probably be automated, so back to probes unless real time decisions are critical.

Likewise, a hostile environment without a starship in orbit is not an ideal place to plant a receiving pad; you end up beaming your people into a death trap, and they're killed/captured before they have a chance to radio back and warn people not to beam anyone else over.
Beam a probe out to check the environment first, or beam a team out in a shuttle to a high orbit. Better yet, do both so the shuttle doesn't hit anything.

But then again, Federation starships already are capable of scanning within a radius of hundreds of light years in the 24th century (and dozens perhaps in the 23rd ?).
An ordinary radiotelescope is capable of scanning hundreds of light years even now. We can take all kinds of detailed readings of distant solar systems already.
Modern telescopes can read disturbances in the appearance of suns in order to infer the presence of planets, but it's still sloppy stuff. Trek sensors are vastly superior to what we have now and most importantly work faster than light.

23rd century sensors have a higher resolution, but it's hard to say how much higher. It is probably not high enough to reliably send a transporter signal several light years away, though.
Khan traveled 90 light years, and Scotty's first transwarp beaming only had the Enterprise's velocity and scale. Not much information is required for transwarp beam-out.

If you mean that the Enterprise-D is capable of identifying and tracking individual life forms 250ly away, I would need to see some evidence of that.
Voyager scanned a 9 light years radius, from one location, for human life signs, covering, I believe, 5 planets, in "Workforce". I think the other impressive scanning feat is them scanning 2500 ly, but I don't recall the specifics, and it might be related to the first use of the Astrometrics lab. There are other feats which fall between those distances, but they're really only important for transwarp beam-in, not beam-out. For beam-out, I believe they scanned a planet at great distance in "Dreadnaught" at 100 light years and got precise information such as the presence of life forms and civiliztion, but I don't recall specifically.
 
No, developing PRACTICAL transwarp beaming implies this. It is never stated that the technique was ever developed into something practical, and in all probability, it wasn't.

But for all intense and purposes, Spock handed Starfleet in the 23rd century the formula for practical TW beaming.
No, he handed them the formula for SUCCESSFUL transwarp beaming. The ability to do something a small number of times under special circumstances does NOT translate into the ability to do something any time you want as often as you want. That is the difference between "practical" and "possible."

With current technology it is POSSIBLE, for example, for the U.S. Marine Corps to insert troops into the battlefield using space capsules riding on the tips of ballistic missiles. In fact, more than possible, that would be cool as hell; the Pentagon gets a call about a terrorist hijacking somewhere and literally ten minutes later you have a platoon of Marines (ODSTs?) dropping out of the sky in wingsuits, ready to kick ass.

But is that a PRACTICAL way of deploying special forces troops into the battlefield? There are problems with that technique that have nothing to do with the technology involved; issues of G forces on the human body, the probability of reentry system failure, the fact that you can only deliver a very small number of troops this way, the fact that your troops will be very exposed to ground fire on the way down, and the fact that the time it takes them to reach the ground from parachute altitude gives away any surprise advantage. That before you consider the COST OF THE ROCKETS being ridiculously high just to insert a few dozen soldiers behind enemy lines.

I've noticed Trek Tech watchers sometimes struggle with analogies, so to break it down further: You can use transwarp beaming to move a person from one place to another, but if the technique is dangerous, financially/energy expensive, or if the benefits of using it outweigh the inherent risks (e.g. the possibility of materializing 500 feet above the surface of the planet you're beaming to) then its practicality will be relatively low. In short, transwarp beaming may well be the FASTEST way to move a person from one planet to another, in much the same way that an ICBM is the fastest way to move a person from one country to another. But we have seen nothing to suggest that this is the safest, most reliable, or even most effective way to do that.

Which is why Starships wouldn't likely be obsolete as HISHE tried to imply.
You would ideally scan the planet from a nearby planetary system with regular sensors...
Even in TNG, detailed scans of planetary systems usually require a starship to close to within a couple of light seconds or closer. Probes are used when the starship can't get that close itself, and THEY have to get within a couple of light seconds.

Uhm, I don't think radiotelescopes and subspace sensors are the same thing.
Neither are radiotelescopes and REGULAR telelscopes, but both have similar limitations of resolution and range.

And what is a subspace telescope if not a radiotelescope that operates via subspace radio?

Whatever you can see through them on the other end, it will likely be enough to get a 'general idea' of an area - and it would be far more detailed and informative than a radiotelescope could ever hope to provide.
It would certainly be FASTER, that is, your long-range sensors would be able to image objects tens of light seconds away with no time delay. They could probably also take realtime radar maps of planets and asteroids from the other end of a solar system and not have to wait several hours for their scanner beams to bounce back to the ship.

But nothing about subspace radio or subspace itself suggests their sensors would be MORE DETAILED at that range. TNG dialog frequently refers to their most detailed sensors as "multi-spectral" devices. Which is good, because that's basically an evolution on real world science sensors on JPL space probes: you send some kind of radiation signal at the target, the signal causes the target to fluoresce (harmlessly, in most cases) and your sensors read the returning radiation pattern. "Scanners" of all types seem to work this way, even the weirdo alien scanners that light up the entire room when they're being used (and are the futuristic equivalent of high-resolution lidar or millimeter-wave radar imaging).

But scanning is always done at close range: You have to get close enough to something to see it in any detail, let alone examine it. How close you have to get depends on how big the thing is that you're looking at/looking for. If it were possible to take those kinds of detailed readings from a distance, the Federation wouldn't build starships, just a lot of really huge telescopes.

Let's not forget the NX-01 sensors in the 22nd century were able to read DNA on an alien ship which was at FTL and millions/billions of km away.
And yet they couldn't tell if there was anyone still alive on the Axanari ship from 5km away.

Enterprise, like Voyager, is probably not something we should take seriously.

Doing the same to gain at least a baseline biological analyses would be more than doable over multiple lightyears in the 23rd century
Since when? They were never able to do this in TOS. Those kinds of surveys were usually conducted IN PERSON, using tricorders and physical samples; they couldn't even collect that kind of data from near orbit.

Indeed, but the resolution of sensors in the 23rd century would likely be far superior than those on the NX-01 when scanning lightyears away
That's pretty doubtful. If narrow a scanning field to one arcsecond of the sky, and scan out to one light second, your scanning field is a patch of space over 80 kilometers across. You could probably fire all kinds of impulses and flood that patch of space with radiation and listen for a return that would indicate that something in that 80km slice of the sky contains what you're looking for; then again, that's an 80km patch of sky, so to get a weapons lock or a transporter beam on the target you have to narrow the field DRAMATICALLY.

That same scanning field projected out to one light year would cover a patch of sky two point seven billion kilometers across. In other words, the entire solar system inside the orbit of Uranus. ASSUMING that you are able to produce impulses powerful enough to get legible responses at that distance (and that is a hell of an assumption with exactly zero support for starships) then IF your sensors can pick out the return signal from background noise, the only thing they've told you is that the thing you've detected is somewhere within 20AUs of the center of your scan field.

What's more, at this distance there's going to be an upper limit to what is and isn't detectable. An individual life form isn't going to radiate more energy than the surrounding environment, unless you light him on fire or do something similarly dramatic to cause him to stand out from the background. Most starships probably won't either unless they are in cold interplanetary space with their engines running hot. And once again, your sensors will be able to tell you the ship is THERE, but they won't be able to pinpoint its location or get a good image of it (or possibly even IDENTIFY it).

This is mainly why detailed sensor scans ALWAYS require a close approach by a starship. It isn't ONLY the incredible vastness of space that's a factor, it's the fact that the human definition of "detailed" includes things that exist on such a scale that they would not be detectable against the background of wherever they are UNLESS you hit them with enough energy to split their atoms and vaporize them.

Not necessarily life forms, but it would likely be able to ascertain whether a planet is class M or not, and general conditions on the planets' surface
We can almost do that with CURRENT sensors. As far as I can tell, the only difference between Starfleet sensors and modern NASA devices is Starfleet sensors operate faster than light, are a lot smaller, and they carry way more of them.
 
Well if you're going to play the "because of plot card" it is best to not go back to the well and try to explain it because sensing in 09 Trek is not exactly as it has always been. The TOS Enterprise at warp doesn't drop out into the middle of a debris field completely unawares like the 09 Enterprise does from it's warp... "tunnel".

But sensing is exactly as it has always been:
 
In any case, having a receiving pad only indicates a preceding knowledge of the destination, something which can be easily had by way of a probe, rather than the more costly effort of fixed infrastructure.

Space combat would be radically different with transwarp transporters. You could beam into an enemy system sensor probes that could relay back more precise targeting information and then beam in weapons on targets or near the the targets.

Or if you're just merely exploring, beam over a probe to the outskirts of a system and then progressively beam closer and closer in until you locate a safe place to beam down a transporter pad so you can beam back out again. So many possibilities :)

The only remaining practical use of a ship would be as a mobile sensor platform, which could probably be automated, so back to probes unless real time decisions are critical.

Or when there is some magic interference that would prevent the operation of the transwarp transporter and a ship must be sent. Or perhaps there is a range limitation of the transporter and you need to get a ship closer when there are no transporters in a floating network nearby...

Voyager scanned a 9 light years radius, from one location, for human life signs, covering, I believe, 5 planets, in "Workforce".

In TOS, "Gamesters of Triskelion" the Enterprise scanned the system of Gamma Two in an hour for the atoms of the lost crew. Although this is at sublight.
SPOCK: I'm beginning to believe that, Mister Scott. I've conducted two sweeps of the planet's surface. There is no sign of life.
MCCOY: Then what the devil is happening? Does that mean their atoms are just floating around out there?
SPOCK: No, Doctor. Even that would show up on our sensors.
...
SPOCK: They are not within the confines of this solar system.
MCCOY: It's been nearly an hour. Can people live that long as disassembled atoms in a transporter beam?
 
An engineer on the Kelvin may have gone on to be a part of the Constitution design team, one who advocated a "less is more" ideology that would give the class a far simpler and more elegant aesthetic.

It doesn't even need to be that direct. It could be as simple as one of the designers never meeting someone at a coffee shop for scones because the person they were supposed to meet was delayed because they had to cover someone else's shift because that someone else was busy consoling someone who's nephew was the Kelvin and they don't know if their alive or dead yet.

Butterfly effect is a helluva drug. It seems to be more limited in regards to Trek, not unlike a lot of fiction, as we still want people we recognize to show up, but there's room for all kinds of changes to take place as ripples from the Kelvin alter events even further from being directly related to it.
 
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