"Hell Bent" Grade and discussion thread

[sttngfan1701d]

Didn't 11 say that about Clara? An enigma wrapped in a riddle in an almost too tight skirt. He was the pervy one.

"Impossible girl. A mystery wrapped in an enigma squeezed into a skirt that's just a little bit too...tight..."
(Has brief reverie, grins, nods, then looks appalled that he actually had such thoughts)
"...What are you?!"

He says a half-episode later (in the prequel to Name of the Doctor): "And now she's back, and we're running together and she's...perfect. Perfect in every way for me. Except that she can't remember that we ever met. Clara. My Clara. Always brave, always funny, always exactly what I need. Perfect. Too perfect. Got used to not knowing. I thought I never would..." (meaning why she was "impossible.")

So I don't see this as pervy. He's drawn to her because of the intellectual challenge she presents by being an "impossible" enigma, but also attracted to her at the same time in a way which I've always called "smitten." He's completely and totally smitten with her. She was the perfect companion.

And when you have Twelve say again and again "She's my friend, she's just my friend..." he obviously loves her. Not romantically in THIS incarnation, but he doesn't go through all that he did for just anyone. He did this for "his Clara" (he called her that in series 8 when she threw the TARDIS keys in the volcano, and Eleven calls her that multiple times). Best friend, yes. But there was love there, almost like a tumultuous love affair that can't go on after a certain point, because it consumes you in such a way that you forget yourself...which he did. He broke all his own rules and briefly stopped being "The Doctor" just to save her.

And in some ways he had concrete reasons to do this. Clara voluntarily sacrificed herself to go into his time-stream and save his lives from the Great Intelligence. She is the one that convinced the Timelords to give him more regenerations. She is also the one who told him not to be afraid as a child. She has had an enormous impact on his life, so how DARE the Timelords do this to her? He was pissed.

But at the same time, Clara never asked for a duty of care and never asked to be saved from death herself and didn't WANT him to commit violence on her account (killing the General). So even though at the end of it, when they were both ready to press the button on the neural block device, they both hesitated, and for a second they were like "Or we could just, y'know, run away..." but they both knew it was for the best. It's just unfortunate that the Doctor now only has flashes of memories of her.

 

[Iamnotspock]

Also: I know this is going back to the beginning of the season, but... did they ever explain just how the hell Davros survived the end of "Journey's End?" I thought I'd paid close attention to the episode at the beginning of the series, but I don't think it was ever explained. How the fuck did he manage to get his evil ass back to Skaro?

They didn't. Just like they rarely explained the Master's continued survival in the old days. "So, you escaped from [......]. I should have guessed!"

So...is the Doctor a "high born Galifreyan" or a peasant who slept in a barn as a child, and presumably lived on a farm outside the Citadel?

I'm not sure why people think these are incompatible. I would say he was raised in something like a stately home - a grand high-born family residence out in the country that had lots of grounds. Then he went into the Citadel to start his Time Lord training, but when it all got too much for him, he ran out to the barn to cry to himself because he didn't want the others to see him afraid.

Yes, he's definitely high-born, as established in 'The Deadly Assassin'; "A Prydonian. [...] Apparently, he is, or was at one time, a member of that noble chapter."

I ask because in the Classic series( Invasion of Time), there is a sub-section of Galifreyans that live outside the city.

The Shobogans. The Doctor mentioned them to Clara in the Cloisters in this episode.

 

[JoeZhang]

Yes, he's definitely high-born, as established in 'The Deadly Assassin'; "A Prydonian. [...] Apparently, he is, or was at one time, a member of that noble chapter."

That isn't a reference to birth but Oxbridge colleges.

 

[Karzak]

Also: I know this is going back to the beginning of the season, but... did they ever explain just how the hell Davros survived the end of "Journey's End?" I thought I'd paid close attention to the episode at the beginning of the series, but I don't think it was ever explained. How the fuck did he manage to get his evil ass back to Skaro?

They didn't. Just like they rarely explained the Master's continued survival in the old days. "So, you escaped from [......]. I should have guessed!"

a.k.a. sloppy writing. Well, it is Moffat. I should have guessed!

 

[JoeZhang]

You can blame SM for a lot of stuff - this isnt one of them - it's always been this way. All that has changed is that he doesn't waste any time pretending characters like the Master or Davros actually can die. Once you give up on that, long explanations of how they escaped death become irrelevent.

Now you could argue that in itself is sloppy writing but if so it's a doctor who tradition.

 

[RoJoHen]

I decided to watch it again, and I think I love it now (which is pretty typical for most of Moffat's finales).

I like that there really is no Hybrid. Or if there is, it doesn't really. It was like the Boogeyman...or the creatures from "Listen" that probably don't even exist except in your imagination.

Or maybe The Hybrid is many things. Maybe it's Me. Maybe it's the Doctor. Maybe it's the Doctor/Clara combo. I think the important thing is that it doesn't really matter.

I was unsure about Clara's end the first time I watched this. I really didn't like the idea of the Doctor's memory being wiped. But you know, over the last two seasons Clara's entire arc has been that she is becoming more and more like the Doctor. What a fitting end that she be the one to lose her companion, to be forced to say goodbye only to move on.

Clara has to return to Gallifrey someday. The Time Lords need to put her back on the Trap Street so she can die. BUT, just like the Doctor, she stole a TARDIS and ran away, and now she's traveling the universe.

Incidentally, I think it's kind of interesting that Clara and Me are together. Me - an Immortal woman who can never die, and Clara - a woman who is already dead.

Anyway, I really enjoyed this finale, but I'm sad to see Clara go. However, I like that the series will effectively be able to start fresh in Season 10. All of the loose story threads have more or less been wrapped up.

 

[ihno]

He saw her image on the TARDIS door and didn't remember her. He'll remember her whenever the plot needs him to do so.

I don't see a problem with the doctor seeing the image of Clara or finding bras or whatever.

He talked about her to the real Clara so it's not about forgotten historical details but the forgotten "emotional involvement" or something like this.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Also: I know this is going back to the beginning of the season, but... did they ever explain just how the hell Davros survived the end of "Journey's End?" I thought I'd paid close attention to the episode at the beginning of the series, but I don't think it was ever explained. How the fuck did he manage to get his evil ass back to Skaro?

*shrug* Davros always survives. IIRC, RTD specifically said that he didn't show a dead body for Davros in "Journey's End" because he didn't want to be the one to incontrovertibly kill off such a popular recurring character. And nobody ever will - like they said, it's as traditional as quarries and corridors. It's totally within the realms of Davros's character to have an escape route planned, and once he'd had his final hypocritical rant at the Doctor, for him to have used it. Ain't no thang.

My question is, why would a "high-born Galifreyan" live in the wastelands with non-Time Lords, instead of the Citadel where you'd expect those of high birth to stem from?

Well, because that's clearly always been within his character. He always fights for the underdog, he never considers himself one of the top dogs, at least not in a political sense. Except for the occasional getting-carried-away moment, he's just a bloke in a box bumbling around trying to fix things. Obviously he has a problem with the way Time Lord society is run, and he always has. Spending time with 'the little people' of Gallifreyan society is either where that came from, or just reinforced something that was already there.

So I don't see this as pervy. He's drawn to her because of the intellectual challenge she presents by being an "impossible" enigma, but also attracted to her at the same time in a way which I've always called "smitten." He's completely and totally smitten with her. She was the perfect companion.

"Clara... I'm not your boyfriend."
"Never said you were."
"Never said it was your mistake."

12 knows 11 saw her this way... but he doesn't.

.

 

[Relayer1]

Weren't they supposed to be explaining this season why The Doctor is wearing the face of Lobus Caecilius ?

Did I miss it ?

And who is teaching Clra's class now ?

 

[RoJoHen]

Weren't they supposed to be explaining this season why The Doctor is wearing the face of Lobus Caecilius ?

Did I miss it ?

It was to remind the Doctor that his job is to save people.

It was explained (albeit poorly and briefly) in the Viking episode.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

12 knows 11 saw her this way... but he doesn't.

Yeah I know. But 12 still loved her...just not romantically. You don't go through all that he did to save her if you don't deeply love someone. They couldn't bear to part. It was just like a tumultuous affair that eventually had to end for the good of both of them. They both knew it, but it took until the last second for them to press that button, because they didn't want to lose one another. And of course, like any tumultuous affair, there was obsession.

And I'm sure that the Doctor loved Amy and Rory too. Maybe 12 doesn't say it because he's not like that, or maybe Moffat avoids it because he wants to be different from RTD and 10 & Rose, or to avoid confusing the audience (as some people would assume romantic love by default).

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Well 10 did turn into a slobbering mess over Rose......... Did not like that

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

And the Doctor has used guns in the past.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzmnPs64K74

WARNING: Swearing

 

[StCoop]

AI of 82; lowest ever for a Series Finale beating the previous record holder of 'Death In Heaven'.

Series average is also an 82 which puts it...

Series 4 88
Series 3 86
Series 5 86
Series 6 86
Series 7 86
Series 2 84
Series 8 83
Series 1 83
Series 9 82

...right there.

 

[Starkers]

AI of 82; lowest ever for a Series Finale beating the previous record holder of 'Death In Heaven'.

Series average is also an 82 which puts it...

Series 4 88
Series 3 86
Series 5 86
Series 6 86
Series 7 86
Series 2 84
Series 8 83
Series 1 83
Series 9 82

...right there.

Is that series average or the AI of each finale? I'm guessing the former. Am I right in thinking that the way AI was calculated the series 1 figure is out of tune with the others as well?

It's a shame 9 gets a worse overall figure than 8 because I think it's been lots better. Of course taking Sleep No More out of the equation and it leaps up to 83, but then I'm guessing if you took Love and Monsters out of S2 that'd jump a place or two as well.

What does this tell us? Moffat's time to go? That the public don't like an older Doctor? That the public are just Who weary? Maybe all three. I would be very interested to know what the more specific information re Capaldi is, much like Tennant (IMO) it took him a year to grow into the role but now I'd hate for him to be jettisoned.

 

[RoJoHen]

What does this tell us? Moffat's time to go? That the public don't like an older Doctor? That the public are just Who weary? Maybe all three. I would be very interested to know what the more specific information re Capaldi is, much like Tennant (IMO) it took him a year to grow into the role but now I'd hate for him to be jettisoned.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a big contributing factor was the long gap between seasons. 9 months is a long time to wait for a new season of a TV show, especially if you weren't super thrilled with the previous season (like many people seemed to be with Season 8).

I think the show needs to be fun again. The new Christmas Special looks like it'll be a good time.

I don't think they need to ditch Capaldi, but a new season needs to reinvent the show a little bit. The Cracks are gone. Gallifrey is back, but it's hiding and may as well be gone. Clara is gone. All the big story threads have been closed. A new season can start without any baggage left over from the last few years.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

It's probably a combination of things but we absolutely shouldn't discount the series' age. This is now the 10th year the show has been on. How many series GAIN viewers as they age? Very few.

Capaldi's Doctor is wonderful now, I agree. I was iffy on him last year (and a rewatch of Series 8 on Netflix didn't change my opinion on his uneven characterization). But he definitely doesn't have wide appeal. And no matter how many Classic Who fans say "It's better!", the 2-parter format this year probably has a lot to do with it too.

I started with the series in 2005 and I liked this year more than last year, but I still think the 2-part format sucks. Either that, or it just wasn't executed properly for half the episodes (meaning both parts were strong).

Things like this can't be pinned on any one thing though. They just can't.

 

[RoJoHen]

I started with the series in 2005 and I liked this year more than last year, but I still think the 2-part format sucks. Either that, or it just wasn't executed properly for half the episodes (meaning both parts were strong).

I hated the two-part format. I was only watching the show every other week just because I didn't feel like dealing with mediocre cliffhangers. Plus it made the season feel a lot shorter because we only got a small handful of stories.

Maybe the show needs more running. There used to be a lot more running.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

Plus it made the season feel a lot shorter because we only got a small handful of stories.

Exactly the way I felt. And I don't care if "that's the way the show used to be."

But besides that, like you said...we wait a long time for this show to air. I want more adventures.

Maybe the show needs more running. There used to be a lot more running.

Or more of a sense of adventure. As a fan, of course I'll take exploration of the show's mythology or delving into the psyche of the Doctor. But the average viewer wants to see fun adventure or they'll just flip the channel.

 

[Mr Light]

I don't have a problem with two parters if they're GOOD, but a lot of these were bad. I think the ideal mix is half and half.