The Making Of Star Trek....

[Christopher]

And yet later in second season the Enterprise wenr to Warp 9 without much concern.

No, that happened in "The Changeling," when Nomad was modifying the engines beyond what the ship was designed to handle. When it then went to warp 10 and 11, Scotty said "Impossible! It can't go that fast." Kirk ordered Nomad to reverse the enhancements because the ship's structure couldn't take it.

Later, in "The Paradise Syndrome," the ship held at warp 9 as emergency speed, and Scott complained about the stress on the engines. Eventually, continued operation at warp 9 burned out the warp drive completely. In "The Enterprise Incident," they again used warp 9 to escape the Romulans, but only for a brief time, and a Romulan officer described it as "extreme speed." In "Day of the Dove," the Evil Pinwheel Entity forced the ship to travel steadily as warp 9, and Scotty said "Don't ask me what's holding her together."

And in third season the ship goes Warp 14 without flying apart.

Except that was in an emergency situation where the engines were running out of control. The fastest speed they could safely maintain was warp 8.4; when the engines went into their runaway acceleration beyond that, it was clearly stated that the ship would blow up within 15 minutes. The only reason they didn't fly apart is because Scotty stopped the runaway in the nick of time.

 

[feek61]

In "Obsession" they couldn't hold warp 8 speed after they had been following the cloud creature for a bit so I think it's safe to say that there was a little variation and inconsistency in the writing.

 

[Christopher]

Not that much inconsistency. As a rule, anything above warp 7 was pushing the ship beyond what it was designed to handle. How much of that stress it could maintain and for how long presumably depended on the circumstances. Naturally you wouldn't expect a uniform, predictable performance at speeds that are, by definition, beyond the normal maximum.

 

[Warped9]

And yet later in second season the Enterprise wenr to Warp 9 without much concern.

No, that happened in "The Changeling," when Nomad was modifying the engines beyond what the ship was designed to handle. When it then went to warp 10 and 11, Scotty said "Impossible! It can't go that fast." Kirk ordered Nomad to reverse the enhancements because the ship's structure couldn't take it.

Later, in "The Paradise Syndrome," the ship held at warp 9 as emergency speed, and Scott complained about the stress on the engines. Eventually, continued operation at warp 9 burned out the warp drive completely. In "The Enterprise Incident," they again used warp 9 to escape the Romulans, but only for a brief time, and a Romulan officer described it as "extreme speed." In "Day of the Dove," the Evil Pinwheel Entity forced the ship to travel steadily as warp 9, and Scotty said "Don't ask me what's holding her together."

And in third season the ship goes Warp 14 without flying apart.

Except that was in an emergency situation where the engines were running out of control. The fastest speed they could safely maintain was warp 8.4; when the engines went into their runaway acceleration beyond that, it was clearly stated that the ship would blow up within 15 minutes. The only reason they didn't fly apart is because Scotty stopped the runaway in the nick of time.

Yet the ship didn't fly apart.

And in "The Deadly Years" they use Warp 9 to escape the attacking Romulan ships.

 

[Christopher]

Yet the ship didn't fly apart.

Not immediately, no, but that's not the point. The point is that the ship was in danger of flying apart, and that the engines would have either burned out or blown up if the speed had been sustained too long. You can't seriously expect it to be a simple binary choice between "Works perfectly forever and ever at that speed" and "Blows up immediately at that speed." If you put too much weight on an elevator, the cables will snap eventually, but you can't predict exactly when. That's why it's dangerous to do it at all.

Come on, fiction is full of situations where characters push things past safe limits and are in danger of being killed at any moment, and yet plot armor ensures that they'll survive unless they're villains or redshirts. So the fact that the ship didn't blow up can hardly be taken as proof that those speeds are perfectly safe.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Be nice if the TNG writers had written the Enterprise-D that way instead of it seemingly having a warp core breach if you looked at it funny

That post reminds me of the time the Enterprise-D was frozen in mid-breach, and Picard drew a smiley face in the warp core's ejecta cloud.

 

[Warped9]

Yet the ship didn't fly apart.

Not immediately, no, but that's not the point. The point is that the ship was in danger of flying apart, and that the engines would have either burned out or blown up if the speed had been sustained too long. You can't seriously expect it to be a simple binary choice between "Works perfectly forever and ever at that speed" and "Blows up immediately at that speed." If you put too much weight on an elevator, the cables will snap eventually, but you can't predict exactly when. That's why it's dangerous to do it at all.

Come on, fiction is full of situations where characters push things past safe limits and are in danger of being killed at any moment, and yet plot armor ensures that they'll survive unless they're villains or redshirts. So the fact that the ship didn't blow up can hardly be taken as proof that those speeds are perfectly safe.

The essential take away is that early on Warp 8 was tops and sustainable for only brief periods of time. Things changed in some way during the second season. The ship was now able to reach Warp 9 for brief sprints. We can rationalize that "in universe" modifications were made that allowed for it. A century later Laforge would tinker with E-D's drive to similar effect. We also saw outside agents (Nomad and the Kelvans) tamper with the ship's drive systems to allow for sustained speeds beyond what was considered possible. It makes sense that Scotty learned something from those events allowing him to make further modifications for the ship to operate at higher tolerances than standard. It must have paid off because when the ship goes Warp 14+ in "That Which Survives" it isn't the structure of the ship that's straining, but something in the system that's been tampered with and is going to blow at a certain point.

It doesn't mean the ship can now routinely go Warp 10 or 12 or 14 whenever they want, but that they learn they have a greater safety margin they they previously believed.

These events would have gotten back to Starfleet and not surprisingly the next generation of ships--including the TMP refit--have standard maximums in terms of speed.

 

[erastus25]

In "Obsession" they couldn't hold warp 8 speed after they had been following the cloud creature for a bit so I think it's safe to say that there was a little variation and inconsistency in the writing.

Yup, definitely looks that way. Oh well...hard to blame them for minor continuity errors like that given the strain they were often under to even get the episodes done. Doesn't really take away from the action in the end.

 

[Christopher]

The essential take away is that early on Warp 8 was tops and sustainable for only brief periods of time.

That's not quite true. I've used the Star Trek Script Search site to check the episode transcripts, and the first time warp 8 was mentioned was in "Arena," where the crew seemed rather shocked when Kirk ordered that speed, since Spock had said sustained warp 7 was dangerous. But the ship managed to hold at warp 8 for an uncertain interval, until the Metrons forced them to a stop. After that, starting two episodes later in "Tomorrow is Yesterday," warp 8 was treated as a risky but survivable emergency speed, a velocity that strained the engines but could be maintained with care for a fair amount of time.

So I don't see any inconsistency that requires assuming some kind of change to the engines. Warp 6 is the maximum recommended speed -- in naval parlance, full speed. Warp 7 is emergency speed, stressful but sustainable. Warp 8 or so is the edge of what's sustainable, where you're starting to gamble with the safety of the ship. Warp 9 is over the edge and all but guarantees burnout or explosion if you sustain it for more than minutes. That's the way I've always understood it, and the only real inconsistency I see is in "The Paradise Syndrome," where the Enterprise sustained warp 9 for quite a few hours. That did burn out the engines, but it would've been more consistent to use warp 8 there. I suppose you could make a case for incremental improvement between seasons 2 and 3, but I don't see much inconsistency between seasons 1 and 2.

 

[Warped9]

The essential take away is that early on Warp 8 was tops and sustainable for only brief periods of time.

That's not quite true. I've used the Star Trek Script Search site to check the episode transcripts, and the first time warp 8 was mentioned was in "Arena," where the crew seemed rather shocked when Kirk ordered that speed, since Spock had said sustained warp 7 was dangerous. But the ship managed to hold at warp 8 for an uncertain interval, until the Metrons forced them to a stop. After that, starting two episodes later in "Tomorrow is Yesterday," warp 8 was treated as a risky but survivable emergency speed, a velocity that strained the engines but could be maintained with care for a fair amount of time.

So I don't see any inconsistency that requires assuming some kind of change to the engines. Warp 6 is the maximum recommended speed -- in naval parlance, full speed. Warp 7 is emergency speed, stressful but sustainable. Warp 8 or so is the edge of what's sustainable, where you're starting to gamble with the safety of the ship. Warp 9 is over the edge and all but guarantees burnout or explosion if you sustain it for more than minutes. That's the way I've always understood it, and the only real inconsistency I see is in "The Paradise Syndrome," where the Enterprise sustained warp 9 for quite a few hours. That did burn out the engines, but it would've been more consistent to use warp 8 there. I suppose you could make a case for incremental improvement between seasons 2 and 3, but I don't see much inconsistency between seasons 1 and 2.

Uh, that's essentially the same thing I said. I never said there was an inconsistency, but suggesting a rationalization could be used to support what we see "in universe."

 

[Christopher]

^No, it's not what you said, because, as I explained, it was never stated that "Warp 8 was tops and sustainable for only brief periods of time." Again, the first time Warp 8 was used was in an episode where it did prove sustainable for a significant period, even though the crew was surprised that it did. You may have a point with regard to the broad strokes of the concept, but your recollection of the specifics is inaccurate.

 

[Warped9]

^No, it's not what you said, because, as I explained, it was never stated that "Warp 8 was tops and sustainable for only brief periods of time." Again, the first time Warp 8 was used was in an episode where it did prove sustainable for a significant period, even though the crew was surprised that it did. You may have a point with regard to the broad strokes of the concept, but your recollection of the specifics is inaccurate.

Oh, brother.

 

[Drone]

Why couldn't Enterprise have maintained the adjustments the Kelvans made to its propulsion? Obviously, the changes they made allowed the existing structure to cohere for the entire length of the journey back to Andromeda. It would seem that an advance in technology that reduces the length of such a trip to 300 years from thousands would be something of more than casual interest to Starfleet to retain and then reverse engineer so that the entire Fleet would have such a capability. I'm pretty sure nothing was said in the episode's epilogue about the possibility.

Is there a fairly obvious Starfleet precept that wouldn't allow it?
It's not as if the Kelvans were from the future, though even if they were, there's no Temporal Prime Directive to worry about.

 

[Christopher]

Why couldn't Enterprise have maintained the adjustments the Kelvans made to its propulsion? Obviously, the changes they made allowed the existing structure to cohere for the entire length of the journey back to Andromeda. It would seem that an advance in technology that reduces the length of such a trip to 300 years from thousands would be something of more than casual interest to Starfleet to retain and then reverse engineer so that the entire Fleet would have such a capability.

Maybe they didn't want to risk keeping alien technology installed in the ship without a thorough understanding of its workings and a thorough analysis of its risks, which could've taken years. The SCE novella Foundations: Book Three shows a joint Starfleet/Kelvan experiment with an enhanced warp drive a few years after the episode, and since there's a story about it, you can presume it didn't go perfectly smoothly.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Let's keep in mind that the engines had apparently been replaced between "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and the regular production episodes of Season 1...so it's possible that they were untested at such high speeds in the field as of "Arena," and everybody was apprehensive about Warp 8 because that was the conservative safety limit given in the manual. Once the ship had been through multiple incidents of achieving higher speeds under unusual circumstances, Scotty probably knew that they were up to a little Warp 9 on a limited basis.

 

[Noname Given]

Why couldn't Enterprise have maintained the adjustments the Kelvans made to its propulsion? Obviously, the changes they made allowed the existing structure to cohere for the entire length of the journey back to Andromeda. It would seem that an advance in technology that reduces the length of such a trip to 300 years from thousands would be something of more than casual interest to Starfleet to retain and then reverse engineer so that the entire Fleet would have such a capability. I'm pretty sure nothing was said in the episode's epilogue about the possibility.

Is there a fairly obvious Starfleet precept that wouldn't allow it?
It's not as if the Kelvans were from the future, though even if they were, there's no Temporal Prime Directive to worry about.

The same reason they never kept (or iterated on) the improved Cloaking Device they procured from the Romulans.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Let's keep in mind that the engines had apparently been replaced between "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and the regular production episodes of Season 1...so it's possible that they were untested at such high speeds in the field as of "Arena," and everybody was apprehensive about Warp 8 because that was the conservative safety limit given in the manual. Once the ship had been through multiple incidents of achieving higher speeds under unusual circumstances, Scotty probably knew that they were up to a little Warp 9 on a limited basis.

That reminds me of a line from Titanic (1997), when the captain of this new ship says he doesn't want to do full speed until the engines "have been properly run in." And I think "run in" must be British (or Cameronian) for broken in.

 

[JE Smith]

Warp 15 is right out!

 

[Drone]

Why couldn't Enterprise have maintained the adjustments the Kelvans made to its propulsion? Obviously, the changes they made allowed the existing structure to cohere for the entire length of the journey back to Andromeda. It would seem that an advance in technology that reduces the length of such a trip to 300 years from thousands would be something of more than casual interest to Starfleet to retain and then reverse engineer so that the entire Fleet would have such a capability.

Maybe they didn't want to risk keeping alien technology installed in the ship without a thorough understanding of its workings and a thorough analysis of its risks, which could've taken years. The SCE novella Foundations: Book Three shows a joint Starfleet/Kelvan experiment with an enhanced warp drive a few years after the episode, and since there's a story about it, you can presume it didn't go perfectly smoothly.

Thanks for the heads up on its inclusion in Star Trek literature. I may very well want to check that out.

Why couldn't Enterprise have maintained the adjustments the Kelvans made to its propulsion? Obviously, the changes they made allowed the existing structure to cohere for the entire length of the journey back to Andromeda. It would seem that an advance in technology that reduces the length of such a trip to 300 years from thousands would be something of more than casual interest to Starfleet to retain and then reverse engineer so that the entire Fleet would have such a capability. I'm pretty sure nothing was said in the episode's epilogue about the possibility.

Is there a fairly obvious Starfleet precept that wouldn't allow it?
It's not as if the Kelvans were from the future, though even if they were, there's no Temporal Prime Directive to worry about.

The same reason they never kept (or iterated on) the improved Cloaking Device they procured from the Romulans.

Well they did study it and used it covertly after the treaty banning it. At any rate that agreement was an important factor in negotiating a complex agreement between two longtime enemies to prevent a competitive advantage presumably. That certainly wasn't the case with the Kelvans' technology that no one else knew about and so wasn't consequent on any existing conflicts that the Federation was engaged in at the time. Why simply turn their backs and not utilize a gift like this if it turned out that there were no technological impediments in doing so. It doesn't really make sense if I'm understanding the rationale you are suggesting correctly.

 

[Noname Given]

Why couldn't Enterprise have maintained the adjustments the Kelvans made to its propulsion? Obviously, the changes they made allowed the existing structure to cohere for the entire length of the journey back to Andromeda. It would seem that an advance in technology that reduces the length of such a trip to 300 years from thousands would be something of more than casual interest to Starfleet to retain and then reverse engineer so that the entire Fleet would have such a capability. I'm pretty sure nothing was said in the episode's epilogue about the possibility.

Is there a fairly obvious Starfleet precept that wouldn't allow it?
It's not as if the Kelvans were from the future, though even if they were, there's no Temporal Prime Directive to worry about.

The same reason they never kept (or iterated on) the improved Cloaking Device they procured from the Romulans.

Well they did study it and used it covertly after the treaty banning it. At any rate that agreement was an important factor in negotiating a complex agreement between two longtime enemies to prevent a competitive advantage presumably. That certainly wasn't the case with the Kelvans' technology that no one else knew about and so wasn't consequent on any existing conflicts that the Federation was engaged in at the time. Why simply turn their backs and not utilize a gift like this if it turned out that there were no technological impediments in doing so. It doesn't really make sense if I'm understanding the rationale you are suggesting correctly.

Um in the TOS era there was no treaty banning it because the Romulans DIDN'T have cloaking tech in the Earth/Romulan War. "Balance of Terror" was the first time the Federation had encounter Romulan Cloaking tech (and yes, I know ENT retconned that a bit, but later Manny Coto realized the mistake and gave the Romulans some sort of holographic masking tech that allowed them to make their ships appear and other species ship types.)