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MeTV's SuperSci-Fi Saturday Night

"Why is a jetstream like a daffodil?" That riddle never gets answered! It's pointless!
But surely you can tell us what it means...!

Umm... Because they both point toward the sunrise?

That's the one I came up with on my own, but afterward I went looking for online answers, and one suggestion is that they're both "flowers" -- although that only works in writing, not speech. (A jet stream flows, so it's a flow-er.)


I agree with Christopher here. In general, Batgirl didn't take a backseat as a crimefighter...she was a step ahead of the boys as much as not, and managed to do it without the resources of Bruce Wayne, a Bat-Computer, and an atomic reactor.

Right. Like Batman, her greatest assets as a crimefighter were her brilliant mind and her encyclopedic education. She's also keenly observant, even more so than Batman and Robin. Note that in "Ring Around the Riddler," she displayed an ability that nobody else in this show's universe has ever possessed: The ability to recognize a disguised person by their chin. (Although she never seemed to apply the same insight to Batman and Robin. Professional courtesy?)

Plus it didn't hurt that she had an in with the Commissioner of Police. And of course she had the one truly indispensable resource for any Gotham crimefighter: Alfred.


By the way, one other timing/pacing change: The onscreen sound effects in the fights are much more frequent, coming after almost every blow.
 
One has to wonder how she managed to get an apartment with a hidden room and a secret exit for her Bat-Cycle....
 
^That's Batgirl-Cycle, if you please...

Maybe she researched Gotham's apartment buildings and found one with an apartment next to a boarded-up freight elevator nobody used anymore. Although that raises the question of how she got the rather major construction work done. And who customized her cycle?
 
In general, Batgirl didn't take a backseat as a crimefighter...she was a step ahead of the boys as much as not, and managed to do it without the resources of Bruce Wayne, a Bat-Computer, and an atomic reactor.

Her "skills" were insulting; from the start, she says luck is part of "woman crime fighter," and as we will see in episodes to follow, make similar statements about a woman's crime fighting tools--none having anything to do with criminology, and it was not her being playful. Honey West was on the air two years before Batgirl, and was not saying such gender-defeating things that stripped her of any intellectual basis for her skill in the field. Its not even suggested that as the daughter of a police commissioner, she either had an interest in--or picked up her skill by observation / association.

Nope, it was just, plenty of "tea leaves" (that's coming) and "luck" as part of a "woman crime fighter's" tools.


Whatever Season 3's weaknesses may have been, Batgirl's high kicks didn't break the show.
Can you imagine Yvonne Craig's Batgirl getting into the fights seen in seasons one & two? Can you imagine Emma Peel or Cathy Gale surviving their battles by slowly high kicking, or hitting enemies with thin planks, or repeatedly captured with as little as a villain grabbing her arm? That happens often to Craig's Batgirl.

If a kids' cartoon released in the same year featured a more progressive Batgirl, really, what was Dozier's excuse for creating one that was a throwback at best?
 
Also, DECADES revealed the reason for the many Green Hornet episodes on Friday, which would have been my first guess without looking it up--Bruce Lee's birthday.

Her "skills" were insulting; from the start, she says luck is part of "woman crime fighter," and as we will see in episodes to follow, make similar statements about a woman's crime fighting tools--none having anything to do with criminology, and it was not her being playful. Honey West was on the air two years before Batgirl, and was not saying such gender-defeating things that stripped her of any intellectual basis for her skill in the field. Its not even suggested that as the daughter of a police commissioner, she either had an interest in--or picked up her skill by observation / association.
That was Batgirl being coy about her true resources...she had a secret identity to maintain, which even her father and the Dynamic Duo weren't in on.

And they often did some pretty lame things with Robin in the fights as well.
 
Also, DECADES revealed the reason for the many Green Hornet episodes on Friday, which would have been my first guess without looking it up--Bruce Lee's birthday.

Her "skills" were insulting; from the start, she says luck is part of "woman crime fighter," and as we will see in episodes to follow, make similar statements about a woman's crime fighting tools--none having anything to do with criminology, and it was not her being playful. Honey West was on the air two years before Batgirl, and was not saying such gender-defeating things that stripped her of any intellectual basis for her skill in the field. Its not even suggested that as the daughter of a police commissioner, she either had an interest in--or picked up her skill by observation / association.
That was Batgirl being coy about her true resources...she had a secret identity to maintain, which even her father and the Dynamic Duo weren't in on.

Being coy was a stereotypical character trait of older TV series not applied to the other female crimefighters of the period. The oft-referenced Emma Peel or Cathy Gale was not talking about "luck" or making references to being a "female crimefighter" as if being one required different standards baded on gender. For example, that would be as bad if Mission: Impossible's Barney Collier said, "Jim, luck is especially important for a black IMF agent!" Thankfully, that never happened, because its ridiculous--your job and execution of it needs no special tools based on identity, whether that is gender or race.

And they often did some pretty lame things with Robin in the fights as well.
More often than not, Robin held his own against several opponents all at onnce, and though never used enough, Ward was allowed to use some of his martial arts skills in fights ("When the Rat's Away, the Mice Will Play," "The Penguin's Nest," "The Great Train Robbery," etc.) while his stuntman was just as active as West's--things utterly absent from Batgirl's "fights."

Again, the comic book source for Batman & Robin had them fight--which was carried over to the TV series. The comic book Batgirl fought--but that was not carried over to any film adaptation until The Superman / Batman Hour in 1968. Why was it deliberately left out of the Craig version?
 
That was Batgirl being coy about her true resources...she had a secret identity to maintain, which even her father and the Dynamic Duo weren't in on.

I agree. This is a debate I think we've had with TREK_GOD_1 before, in this thread or some other. As I said then, just because Batgirl says it, that doesn't mean she sincerely means it. After all, she's trying to keep her identity secret from her own father, so she'd want to be extra-coy about her methods and sources.

Indeed, her line about luck being a valuable tool for a woman crimefighter could be read as a critique of the male-dominated social order -- i.e. as a woman, she's more of an outsider and doesn't have the benefit of the establishment calling her on a hotline to alert her to crimes, so it helps if luck puts her in the right place at the right time, as it did here.
 
On that occasion, I might have said that while it can be argued that Batgirl wasn't as big a step forward as she could have been, she certainly wasn't a step backward.

The Wonder Woman from Dozier's 1960s pilot short...the one who lived with a human mother and spent a lot of time admiring herself in the mirror...that would have been a massive step backward.
 
On that occasion, I might have said that while it can be argued that Batgirl wasn't as big a step forward as she could have been, she certainly wasn't a step backward.

Absolutely. In the same way that Lt. Uhura, a supporting character who never really emerged from the background, wasn't as big a step forward for racial inclusion as lead characters like I Spy's Alexander Scott or Mission: Impossible's Barney Collier, but was still a moderate step forward.

Heck, at least Batgirl actually got to join in the fights. None of the female villains got to do that. Catwoman just stood by and watched while her henchmen fought, maybe very occasionally got to throw a kick or hit someone over the head with a moneybag. Although there was that one nice bit where she jumped down from a ladder, tackled Batman to the ground, and held him at gunpoint. So things did improve a bit for her later on, but she was never getting into the fights regularly like Batgirl did.
 
. After all, she's trying to keep her identity secret from her own father, so she'd want to be extra-coy about her methods and sources.

I disagree; she was in no greater place of identity protection than the two men Gordon talked to almost every day--Batman and Robin, who he also knew socially as Wayne and Grayson. While the duo tried to guard their secret identity, they were around Gordon professionally and socially so much, yet they did not need to go to such alleged lengths.

Indeed, her line about luck being a valuable tool for a woman crimefighter could be read as a critique of the male-dominated social order -- i.e. as a woman, she's more of an outsider and doesn't have the benefit of the establishment calling her on a hotline to alert her to crimes, so it helps if luck puts her in the right place at the right time, as it did here.
That's an incredible stretch. One, the reason she did not have the establishment calling her is because she did not establish a relationship with the police from the start (obviously, the Dynamic Duo had to at some early point). Two, such a relationship did not stop her, since she commonly waltzed into Gordon's office, or appeared at crimes with NO resistance--but acceptance from Gordon & O'Hara.

With no resistance, or anything preventing her participation, there was no reason to let the word "luck" come out of her mouth as something it is not--a crime fighting tool born of being some nonexistent outsider.

On that occasion, I might have said that while it can be argued that Batgirl wasn't as big a step forward as she could have been, she certainly wasn't a step backward.

How could she was no step forward when a costumed superhero was no equal to her male counterparts as a fighter, and referred to luck and tea leaves, self-marginalizing herself to a "female category of crime fighting?

Honey West, Cathy Gale, Emma Peel and others were true steps forward. Honestly, have you ever seen any assessment of progressive female characters on 1960s TV include Batgirl often? If not, i'll say its not about her being a fantasy character, either, as a decade later, I recall some adding Jamie Sommers and Wonder Woman to such lists (despite some hardline feminists charging W.W. was a sexist fantasy in lingerie), but how many say that about Batgirl?
 
Heck, at least Batgirl actually got to join in the fights. None of the female villains got to do that. Catwoman just stood by and watched while her henchmen fought, maybe very occasionally got to throw a kick or hit someone over the head with a moneybag. Although there was that one nice bit where she jumped down from a ladder, tackled Batman to the ground, and held him at gunpoint. So things did improve a bit for her later on, but she was never getting into the fights regularly like Batgirl did.

The Catwoman started out of the gates strong. In the Catwoman's season 1 debut, "The Purr-fect Crime," she cracked her cat-o-nine tails at her henchmen, with the man drawing his hand back in pain. That was March 1966, (the series had only been on the air a little over two months) and was an act that surpassed any act of physical aggression ever displayed by Batgirl doing pirouettes & slow high kicks.

That played into her total dominance over her male henchmen as a no-nonsense leader--with no "tea leaves" and "luck" as the justification of her position. In fact, in that same scene, she yelled at one of her henchmen for doubting her chances of success based on the failures of male super-villains--

"The Catwoman is not like the others! I'll show you how to clip Batman and Robin's wings! I will prevail!"
That was as significant a role and characterization as the aforementioned TV heroines. Nearly two years later, the lead female character is talking "luck" and "tea leaves."

A major leap backward.
 
I disagree; she was in no greater place of identity protection than the two men Gordon talked to almost every day--Batman and Robin, who he also knew socially as Wayne and Grayson. While the duo tried to guard their secret identity, they were around Gordon professionally and socially so much, yet they did not need to go to such alleged lengths.
We're arguing in circles now. This point was specifically in relation to the fact that her main source of information was being in on what was going on in the Commissioner's office as Barbara Gordon...something that she would need to be coy about to protect her identity.

Honestly, have you ever seen any assessment of progressive female characters on 1960s TV include Batgirl often? If not, i'll say its not about her being a fantasy character, either, as a decade later, I recall some adding Jamie Sommers and Wonder Woman to such lists (despite some hardline feminists charging W.W. was a sexist fantasy in lingerie), but how many say that about Batgirl?
I have no idea, as it's not a topic of such great interest that I'd bother looking for such lists.
 
I disagree; she was in no greater place of identity protection than the two men Gordon talked to almost every day--Batman and Robin, who he also knew socially as Wayne and Grayson.

You seriously think there's no difference between a person's ability to recognize two social acquaintances and his ability to recognize his own daughter????


Honestly, have you ever seen any assessment of progressive female characters on 1960s TV include Batgirl often?

I've certainly never heard anyone trash Batgirl as aggressively as you do. And let's see...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batgirl#Feminist_interpretations

https://bust.com/holy-discontent-batgirl-was-totes-feminist.html

http://feministbatgirl.tumblr.com/day/2015/08/19
As the original Batgirl actress, she was the first female hero on screen, introducing the idea of superheroines in a fun way just as feminism was about to become a greater part of the culture. She even used that platform to star in a Department of Labor Equal Pay PSA!
...
Being smart was shown as a superheroine’s real power- a power that could best both male physical strength and material resources.... One of the enduring things about every version of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is that she is unapologetic in being both an intelligent and a feminine character, even during times when that combination is unpopular in media.

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...as-a-caped-crusader-for-equality-and-fair-pay
In a 1998 interview with Femme Fatale magazine, the actor said: “I meet young women who say Batgirl was their role model. They say it’s because it was the first time they ever felt girls could do the same things guys could do, and sometimes better. I think that’s lovely.”

Batgirl was “take-charge and quick to assess a situation and take action on it”, she said later of her character. “And she wasn’t violent - she was wily and quick-witted’”

In a post for Playboy, comic book writer Gail Simone remembers being awestruck after seeing Batgirl on television for the first time: “She spawned a generation of geekgirls for decades to come. I know that when I went back to my little elementary school after seeing her for the first time, I stood a little taller, I spoke a little more forcefully, and when I saw kids bully other kids, I took a stand. Because I knew that’s what Batgirl would do.”

The article also points out that Yvonne Craig, unlike West and Ward, did all her own stunts.


http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/batgirl-yvonne-craig-dies-at-age-78
“When we did the pilot, Batgirl was supposed to be not only as good as the guys but better,” she recalled. “She ended up being this cute little bland character, when she could have been more in the style of Katharine Hepburn.”

None the less, her performance was eagerly taken up by feminist critics as a spirited example of the hard-working career girl – an ally to the hero, rather than his dependant.

Granted, you're right that Batgirl wasn't as feminist as other characters, that the show didn't take her as far as they could have. But for the time, her very existence was still a powerful feminist statement, even watered down as it was. Your problem is that you're seeing only the negatives. For girls and women in the '60s, they were surrounded by far more negative images and assumptions, so anything that eroded those expectations at all was a step forward. Maybe Batgirl didn't get to throw punches or be as tough as she could've been, maybe she was even reduced to a damsel in distress rather too often, but she was still a heroine rather than a secretary or girlfriend, she was smart and resourceful rather than frivolous and useless, and she was fearless in the face of danger rather than crying, screaming, or fainting. Looking back from 2015, it can be hard to understand how progressive those simple things were, because we've come so far beyond them. But for young women back in the day, women like Gail Simone, they were inspiring.
 
It's particularly hard to single out Batgirl as a damsel in distress in a show that had already been routinely putting a couple of guys in bondagey situations for two years.
 
You seriously think there's no difference between a person's ability to recognize two social acquaintances and his ability to recognize his own daughter????


Do you actually thinkBruce & Dick would not have greater need to protect their identity considering the incontrovertible facts / experiences available to Gordon:


  • One male adult, one male teenager of an approximate gate and build.
  • One costumed adult, one costumed male teenager of an approximate age and build.
  • Both sets with similar voice patterns
  • Both sets known professionally and socially by Gordon on a frequent basis for years.
Batgirl just dropped in town. Constant exposure of Wayne & Grayson in and out of costume poses a greater challenge than Barbara--a person who Gordon holds preconceived notions about all he thinks Barbara is, and until recently (in universe) was long out of his presence at college.



You cannot underestimate how well someone should know those who are in his office (seemingly) every day, while the other half he knows as friends he's socialized with on numerous filmed occasions.





I've certainly never heard anyone trash Batgirl as aggressively as you do.

Which does not mean the criticism does not exist.

Batgirl was designed to inject new life into the Batman ratings. If the character was a success, that desired goal would have helped, but it did not. When anyone discussing the decline of Batman, one cannot simply say, "oh, it was the budget" (apparently not, as they added another performer, and paid her more than series star Burt Ward), or "oh, the fad had lost its appeal, so..." In any critical analysis, all new factors have to be considered, and none were bigger than the addition of another superhero to the series.

The behind the scenes motives (as related by Infantino) hammer the fact that Dozier thought Batgirl was going to be the answer, so in comes the meeting with DC Comics brass, the promotional film for ABC (which was uncommon for a single character planning to be added to an existing TV series), and ultimately, Batgirl as the would-be life saver.

If that did not happen--and of course, it did not, that means Batgirl failed as said life saver. She was no minor supporting player that would not move the needle in either direction (e.g. Aunt Harriet), but a major effort to draw in viewers.

Again, that did not happen because the character was a failure--evident in the anti-super heroic characterization.

http://feministbatgirl.tumblr.com/day/2015/08/19
As the original Batgirl actress, she was the first female hero on screen, introducing the idea of superheroines in a fun way just as feminism was about to become a greater part of the culture. She even used that platform to star in a Department of Labor Equal Pay PSA!
...
Being smart was shown as a superheroine’s real power- a power that could best both male physical strength and material resources.... One of the enduring things about every version of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is that she is unapologetic in being both an intelligent and a feminine character, even during times when that combination is unpopular in media.

Unpopular? Questionable in the extreme. In the 1960s, the female characters oft-cited in this thread were not only popular (one had her own TV series, while the other was often more of a draw than her male companion), but considered revolutionary for their time, and in TV history overall.

Are you--or anyone else--going to place Yvonne Craig's Batgirl on the same level of breakthrough and cultural / media importance as Honey West and the female heroines from The Avengers?


Ask Gloria Steinem or Lynda Barry about which female superhero character was more inspirational.

The article also points out that Yvonne Craig, unlike West and Ward, did all her own stunts.

Yvonne Craig said she had a stunt double. One can be seen riding the horse in "A Horse of Another Color," and another was used in some of the motorcycle stunts, though Craig also operated the bike on camera.

Moreover, man, you just hammered that final nail! The reason she was able to perform more of her own stunts was due to the fact her "fighting" was not fighting at all, meaning they were as non-dangerous as possible. That was not the case with West and Ward's fights at all. Bad comparison, Christopher.

Further, we do see West and Ward allowed to take chances that was never going to be sent Craig's way, such as West performing the entire fight in the United Underworld hideout from the Batman movie, or Ward's martial arts work in episodes mentioned earlier.

There's no comparison.

Granted, you're right that Batgirl wasn't as feminist as other characters, that the show didn't take her as far as they could have. But for the time, her very existence was still a powerful feminist statement, even watered down as it was. Your problem is that you're seeing only the negatives. For girls and women in the '60s, they were surrounded by far more negative images and assumptions, so anything that eroded those expectations at all was a step forward

I see the positive when it exists. All of us Trek BBS members know the reach Nichelle Nichols had with some women and people of many colors, then the TV spies/detectives already made that list, along with Julia, or Peggy Lipton's Julie Barnes character (one of the earliest, college age women as an active police officer--though undercover) from The Mod Squad.

The 1960's made numerous important strides in female characters being more than set dressing, and on some of the most visible series of the decade. Many were written to have opinions that could not be ignored, and having the ability to change situations around them based on being just as vital and effective as any man. My point is that with progressive female TV characters existing before TV Batgirl, and the comic version designed specifically to act as a guide for Dozier, he (Dozier) had no excuse to mold Craig's version into someone no more believable in the role of a superhero than Shelly Fabares' Mary Stone "flighty debutante" type character from The Donna Reed Show.
 
From Batgirl to That Girl, eh? cue Frank Gorshin laughing

That's what I look for on Batman--his Riddler made that show for me even more than Adam West.

Sorry old chum

Of course, he and I have better calves than Craig did ;)
 
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