"Face the Raven" Grade and Discussion Thread

[sttngfan1701d]

I had to reflect before I came here and posted my impressions.

Yes, it was a good episode. The moment Clara makes the fateful miscalculation, I just knew that they were going to have that bit in there about it all coming to this because she was reckless.

"Did you make this human?" "Bring the new human. On second thought no, I'll be distracted." That was great. As was: "Why can't I be the good cop?" "Doctor we've been over this. Your face."

The whole sequence between the Doctor vowing to bring down everything upon Me and her little street of aliens before Clara stopped him, and the conversation they had, was great. Yes, David Tennant and Matt Smith would've been more emotional in this instance, but Capaldi is a different Doctor. Jenna Coleman conveyed the needed emotion in this scene, and don't forget that Clara didn't have much time. She said what needed to be said. I really did love that part. Even if more emotion would've increased its impact, I understood why they did it that way.

Her death itself...personally I would've shot it differently. Easier on the slow-mo, and no multiple cuts to show different camera perspectives. The music drowned out Clara screaming in pain...I get that part. I just would've shot it differently if it were my choice. It did hit me when she crumpled to the ground. I felt that.

But the worst part? The Doctor doesn't even get to take her body. Stupid Ashildr/Me/Mayor of Whatever and her stupid teleport, and Clara's body is just lying in the street. I wanted the Doctor to at least have one final moment with her, with some flashbacks to "Run you clever boy" or "I'm not going anywhere old man." I felt like they cheated us of that, at least.

I kept my composure through all of it, but I did break at the post-credits sequence of Rigsy painting the flowers for Clara on the TARDIS. I shed some tears when I saw that. *Sigh....*

Bottom line is yes, 10 or 11 would've reacted to the death of such an important companion differently. Eleven would've cried and gone back in time to see if he could fix it, or brooded on a cloud. Ten would've gone around acting like everything was fine while a storm raged inside him. Twelve, I feel, is going to have some trouble with Clara's final wish/order. He *is* the type to rain destruction down on everyone in anger, or go all Liam Neeson on someone's ass. The next two episodes will be interesting because of that....but I'll miss Clara. And I'll miss Jenna. Yes, I know we see her again technically in 2 weeks, but I will miss Clara. Very much. Even if that runs contrary to the majority of people here. Her presence made the show more enjoyable for me.

I also keep thinking...if the Doctor had gone out there with her to face the raven? He would've gotten to be with her as she died, and possibly would've tried to give her regeneration energy, and she would've stopped him. I don't know. I'll go mourn for awhile. Or watch something funny to cheer up.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

^ That would have been nice.

"Run you clever... (she chokes back tears) And remember."

 

[Skellington]

Twelve, I feel, is going to have some trouble with Clara's final wish/order. He *is* the type to rain destruction down on everyone in anger, or go all Liam Neeson on someone's ass.

Liam Neeson FTD. Though I'm reminded of this post regarding another actor:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4934914&postcount=39

 

[Mr Soak]

"There is a HUGE shock coming at some point in this episode. Something absolutely massive. So beware - you will not want anyone to ruin it for you before you have the chance to see it for yourself. Shut down Facebook and Twitter. Switch off your mobile. Ignore all your friends. Nail planks of wood over your windows. (OK, maybe not that last one.) But most importantly of all, make sure you watch this episode LIVE, as it's transmitted.
And get ready to 'Face the Raven.'"

"To be continued..."

Didn't see that coming.

Two theories killed in this episodes:

1. The Doctor is going backwards through Clara's timeleine due to greif from events in this episode. Clara remembers Ashildr, so The Girl Who Died is definitely before this episode for both the Doctor and Clara.

2. Ashildr/Me is the War Minister. The War Minister is just not mentioned at all. Probably just a throw-away line in Before the Flood.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

First thought: Well, it's nice to know Timewalker can go back to watching Doctor Who now.

Second thought: Am I a terrible person for rather enjoying the Doctor when he's in "I am The Doctor, destroyer of worlds" mode? Particularly with 12.

 

[The Wormhole]

For the most part it wasn't a bad episode. The mystery of a hidden street where aliens seek refuge, Rigsy apparently being something of an unwelcome person there for committing a murder he can't remember, learning Ashildr set the whole thing up at the behest of a mysterious third party who want the Doctor. This was all interesting stuff and definitely made the episode that much more engaging.

Then it was all undone with Clara's death scene. So first, even though we have the whole thing with the tattoo and the raven set up so that Ashildr can apparently remove the tattoo and free the person from the raven's curse, but oh no, conveniently now that Clara has the tattoo she's stuck with it. But even worse, despite the fact the raven is called upon with the ending of the countdown, can track someone down regardless of where in space or time they travel, and can even pass through walls and other solid objects, it must decide to take the scenic route to give Clara one really long and drawn out good-bye monologue. Otherwise why else does it take so long to find someone who is just down the street from it?

I know Moffat didn't write this episode (or at least isn't credited) but I'm pretty sure he must have had a hand in Clara's death scene since it's him all over. Seriously, why does the guy write key moments of the show as such talky affairs where the characters deliver minutes-long monologues talking about what's about to happen rather than just showing the deed happening? This is one of the worse offenders, as this is the death scene of the show's second lead, a character the audience has been attached to for nearly three years. We should be sad at this moment, perhaps, if written properly, we might even feel the need to cry, or at least mopey as though we're losing a friend. I felt none of this during Clara's death scene and actually screamed "get on with it!" at my TV.

Now that's not to say the scene was a complete wash, I actually do like the Doctor's reaction, threatening to bring wrath down on Ashildr and even considering forsaking the Doctor name, definitely an interesting look at the Doctor's usually hidden dark side as well as an indication as to what could eventually make him become the Valeyard. I know the show isn't going to go down this path and that by the time this story is done the Doctor will be back to being the Doctor and might even have forgiven Ashildr, or at least won't be actively pursuing her, but still an interesting look into his character all the same.

They kept things vague, but assuming this does take place a year after Flatline from Rigsy's perspective, that means within the span of a year he moved from Bristol to London, met a woman and had a child with her. I'm not sure if this is a nitpick, as there are still plenty of unknowns that allow for various possibilities as to how this could be possible, but it still does seem a lot of changes for the guy in a short timespan.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ I was going to write something similar, but I agree with what you say so I won't repeat it. There were interesting aspects to the story, but the ending could've been handled better. I'm sad to see Clara go though. I know she was controversial but I loved her character.

Mr Awe

 

[Marsden]

Second thought: Am I a terrible person for rather enjoying the Doctor when he's in "I am The Doctor, destroyer of worlds" mode? Particularly with 12.

I hope not, that part got me really interested. I've been fairly positive about this season, but that really peaked my interest. . A new stretch of the Doctor not being the nice guy would shake things up a bit.


Would it be terrible of me to say the whole thing reminded me constantly of the second Hellboy movie and the Troll's Market?


Oh, and, Oh my god, they killed Clara, those bastards! This is what number 4 or 5?

 

[sttngfan1701d]

But even worse, despite the fact the raven is called upon with the ending of the countdown, can track someone down regardless of where in space or time they travel, and can even pass through walls and other solid objects, it must decide to take the scenic route to give Clara one really long and drawn out good-bye monologue. Otherwise why else does it take so long to find someone who is just down the street from it?

Ehh, this is a nitpick. We all know that it's in the bag of tricks for any writer of any show or movie that things move at the speed of convenience. It's why we all laughed at the conveniently-slow turbolifts in Trek when the characters were talking inside it, as opposed to it being super-fast in other instances.

In this case, the raven had to give Clara and the Doctor enough time to talk, and even then, you still get the sense that they say all they can say to one another in the short time they have.

I know Moffat didn't write this episode (or at least isn't credited) but I'm pretty sure he must have had a hand in Clara's death scene since it's him all over. Seriously, why does the guy write key moments of the show as such talky affairs where the characters deliver minutes-long monologues talking about what's about to happen rather than just showing the deed happening? This is one of the worse offenders, as this is the death scene of the show's second lead, a character the audience has been attached to for nearly three years. We should be sad at this moment, perhaps, if written properly, we might even feel the need to cry, or at least mopey as though we're losing a friend. I felt none of this during Clara's death scene and actually screamed "get on with it!" at my TV.

This is valid. I agree that the death could've carried more emotional heft. It affected *me* more personally because I've been so attached to Clara since she was introduced, but I can understand how the execution of that death doesn't resonate for others. Perhaps they explore it more in the coming episodes, however.

As it was, I agree that it lacked the same "punch" as Amy and Rory's exit did.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

I know she was controversial but I loved her character.

Mr Awe

As did I. But she was only "controversial" on the internet, where a vocal minority can make a lot of noise and seem larger than it is. I am very confident that, were a poll conducted among the entire DW viewership (millions of people), a clear and large majority would be fans of her character.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Amazingly, I was unspoiled about what happened in this episode though Clara's actions in the TARDIS foreshadowed it a little. However, it felt like the whole episode existed only to create that situation. I don't think it stands up very well on its own once they come upon Diagon Alley. I thought Capaldi was pretty good though, his threat to rain hell evoked the Doctor from The Family of Blood. So it was OK,

 

[The Wormhole]

But even worse, despite the fact the raven is called upon with the ending of the countdown, can track someone down regardless of where in space or time they travel, and can even pass through walls and other solid objects, it must decide to take the scenic route to give Clara one really long and drawn out good-bye monologue. Otherwise why else does it take so long to find someone who is just down the street from it?

Ehh, this is a nitpick. We all know that it's in the bag of tricks for any writer of any show or movie that things move at the speed of convenience. It's why we all laughed at the conveniently-slow turbolifts in Trek when the characters were talking inside it, as opposed to it being super-fast in other instances.

In this case, the raven had to give Clara and the Doctor enough time to talk, and even then, you still get the sense that they say all they can say to one another in the short time they have.

Even taking that into account, the way this was done was just silly since we even get a few shots of the raven flying dramatically down the street interspersed throughout Clara's monologue. Honestly, I'm surprised the Doctor didn't try to take advantage of the monologue's apparent power over the raven. "No, Clara, don't give up. Continue delivering your monologue. Monologues seem to keep the raven away. It can track you from one end of the universe to the other, from the start of time to the finish. It can fly through walls, but it can't interrupt a monologue. You're safe as long as you or someone nearby is delivering a monologue."

 

[Mr Light]

Sigh. Got spoiled that Clara dies in the episode. In the headline of a Capaldi interview no less. Guess they were trying to drum up the ratings, but that sucked. I really try to stay spoiler free on Dr Who.

Decent episode and a good death, but a few things rankled me. The blatant Diagon Alley rip off. The blatant budget saving feature of a hundred aliens who conveniently appear to be normal actors. Clara being killed by her own mistake in not understanding the rules the guy was explaining to her. The overwrought screaming death (a simple collapse would have been much more poetic and tragic, particularly while the Doctor holds her in his arms so she's not alone).

I've managed to stay completely spoiler-free on the finale so far, so I have no idea who abducted the Doctor. I would assume Davros and/or Missy since they called back the confession dial.

I hope nobody gives out spoilers on the last two episodes in here... I don't even watch the trailers.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've managed to stay completely spoiler-free on the finale so far, so I have no idea who abducted the Doctor. I would assume Davros and/or Missy since they called back the confession dial.

I doubt it's Missy, there's no need for her to go through this song and dance to get the confession dial back. It was already given to her, and she chose to give it back to the Doctor. Even taking into account she's not the most rational person around and the Master has had a hand in even more convoluted plans for lesser reasons, this seems like overkill considering it would have been much simpler for her to keep the dial when it was given to her in the first place.

 

[Nightowl1701]

No spoilers, but I will note a hint that the episode itself provides:

Spoiler: Pretty simple when you think about it...

The 'trap' required a TARDIS key. And Mayor Me said it wasn't the TARDIS the abductor(s) were interested in.

Spoiler: Bonus hint...

Davros already knows the confession dial won't open for him.

 

[DarthPipes]

I was spoiled on this episode about a month ago. Still, I thought it was very good.

Loved Diagon Alley, I mean Trap Street. I thought it and the situation here was fascinating. Capaldi rocked it with his rage at the end.

It's hilarious that Clara's arrogance and stupidity got her killed. She flew too close in the sun. I really like Jenna Coleman but that final scene did nothing for me. I hated the way Clara talked to the Doctor and she came across as more unlikeable than ever. She truly brought out the worst in the Doctor and their relationship was toxic. It's pretty clear Clara was re-written into a lot of the episodes this season. She should have left after Last Christmas and 12 should have been given a companion afterwards more suited for his character.

I like Rigsy but he contributed nothing to this episode except serving as a plot device.

Always nice to see Maisie Williams.

 

[Mr Light]

Fun fact: Rigsy actually appeared in a previous episode last season, "Flatline". I have no memory of this whatsoever. And here I was thinking it was lame for Clara to sacrifice herself for a made up character who never appeared before!

 

[sttngfan1701d]

The overwrought screaming death (a simple collapse would have been much more poetic and tragic, particularly while the Doctor holds her in his arms so she's not alone).

I'm torn on that. On one hand, yes it was overwrought (though in my opinion it's because of the camera cuts and multiple perspectives/slo-mo). The screaming, I liked. It takes courage to walk to your death in any instance. But to think that she didn't just collapse and die, that she actually went through pain as she died, adds to it. They swelled the music so we didn't have to hear her scream, which was an artistic choice as much as one so it wouldn't be so traumatic (to younger viewers most likely).

But yes, I'm pissed off that the Doctor didn't get to go to her. Her body was just left there. He couldn't hold her hand as she died, or hold her in his arms as she fell, or even GO to her. The more I think about it, the angrier I get. Her death will obviously affect him greatly, and this Doctor showcases grief differently than 11 would have, but 30 extra seconds or a minute to show him either holding her body or at least there with her as she expired would've meant so much more, in my mind.

Maybe they'll address it sometime in the next two episodes but for now, that's the part that disappoints me most.

 

[Nightowl1701]

But yes, I'm pissed off that the Doctor didn't get to go to her. Her body was just left there. He couldn't hold her hand as she died, or hold her in his arms as she fell, or even GO to her. The more I think about it, the angrier I get. Her death will obviously affect him greatly, and this Doctor showcases grief differently than 11 would have, but 30 extra seconds or a minute to show him either holding her body or at least there with her as she expired would've meant so much more, in my mind.

He was trying to be brave too. Trying to honor her last order. She had to face this alone, had to take the punishment for her mistake alone. If he'd held her as she let out her last breath, been looking in her eyes as life left them... well, it would have made Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones look like a mere temper tantrum. He was just barely holding his Dark Side back.

 

[Sparky]

But even worse, despite the fact the raven is called upon with the ending of the countdown, can track someone down regardless of where in space or time they travel, and can even pass through walls and other solid objects, it must decide to take the scenic route to give Clara one really long and drawn out good-bye monologue. Otherwise why else does it take so long to find someone who is just down the street from it?

I know Moffat didn't write this episode (or at least isn't credited) but I'm pretty sure he must have had a hand in Clara's death scene since it's him all over. Seriously, why does the guy write key moments of the show as such talky affairs where the characters deliver minutes-long monologues talking about what's about to happen rather than just showing the deed happening? This is one of the worse offenders, as this is the death scene of the show's second lead, a character the audience has been attached to for nearly three years. We should be sad at this moment, perhaps, if written properly, we might even feel the need to cry, or at least mopey as though we're losing a friend. I felt none of this during Clara's death scene and actually screamed "get on with it!" at my TV.

I think it was an editing issue, not a writing issue. I had no problem with the talky part, aside from the editing that already showed the raven flying around during the monologue. In this case the editing made it appear that the raven started flying before the counter hit zero. It wouldn't have been a problem except that they had already established the raven process earlier in the episode. They also didn't need to show Clara starting to scream from 3 different angles, even that process was drawn out from what was established earlier.

I think they could have made it work if they had tightened up the editing, and reworked the sound so you could actually hear her screaming.