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Was Kes a Good Character?

Was Kes a Good Character?

  • Yes, definitely.

    Votes: 28 24.1%
  • No, she was poor.

    Votes: 15 12.9%
  • Had potential but it was never realised.

    Votes: 65 56.0%
  • No better or worse than any of the others.

    Votes: 8 6.9%

  • Total voters
    116
No she was dropped because Garrett Wang got a one time mention in (iirc) People Magazine. TPTB decision to retain Wang is what resulted in the departure of Kes.
I know that was the reason (personally don't see the appeal of Wang...well not the actor at least :lol:), but it just feels like she was dropped to bring in someone "sexier". It is funny though, Wang gets mentioned in a magazine as a 'hot young actor' or whatever the piece was about but the PTB didn't capitalise on it and give him more to do on the show.

I did not like Seven of Nine. She completely took over the show. Plus her character was very abrasive and annoying. I felt that Hugh was a much better rehabilitated Borg. I wish Seven of Nine had been more like him.

I definitely preferred Kes over Seven of Nine.
I lost interest in VOY when it became the Seven of Nine show. It would've been great if they had figured out a way to bring Hugh in, especially if he was in the skin-tight catsuits :)
 
Yes, Kes was a good characters! To me, she was the best, actually. The most interesting character and the one with the most potential. Whether they utilized her to this potential is another thing, though. It was hit and miss with the Kes episodes.

I loved Seven, too, but keeping a cypher like Kim (whom I like, too) and firing Jen Lien was a bad decision. I'm still convinced of it.

I heartily agree with most of what you stated here. The question of potential is problematic. Not from the way you and everyone else in the thread are describing it, i.e. what the character could have accomplished and the integral significance it likely would have played out for the show. I'm thinking of potential in the sense of what the showrunners appeared to conceive and project for Kes's developmental track from the get go. She was Neelix's girlfriend, came from a planet whose inhabitants' aspirations were infantilized, which she rebelled against, and whose lifespan was extraordinarily brief. Her desire to drink in as much knowledge and experience about the universe was also revealed.

But even from these rudimentary elements, was there any coherent thought and attention given as to how to most creatively utilize them or were they content, to reflexively marginalize her, with a few notable exceptions. It can be simply stated, that Kes indeed was an ancillary character, for whom no greater need was present to give any undue amount of consideration of progression, no different than any other secondary role in Voyager or the other series. In this case, one can rightly say that Jennifer Lien played a part in not having the showrunners pay any more attention to the character than they did. By all accounts, Lien did not participate in any of the discussions with TPTB prior to each season's filming during which each actor could supply input on how they thought their character might reasonably progress and be represented in the coming year. Apparently, Lien was hardly communicative with the higher ups at all. I certainly don't think that was indicative of a lack of thought or concern on her part about the disposition of the role, but just a manifestation of her innate quiescence and introverted personality.

I believe the upshot of these circumstances was that the potential that people now acknowledge in greater numbers as they give Kes another look, was owing to a characterization that Lien basically made on her own, from whole cloth, and was indicative of her truly outstanding gifts as an actor. Of course, she didn't write the dialogue Kes uttered , but it's my opinion that she did have a distinctive vision on how the character's arc should play out and consistently and convincingly made that vision real and enduring. I think Lien nearly always displayed a superlative level of intuitive and instinctive interpretiveness to her line readings and an understanding expressiveness when the camera focused on her in scenes with no dialogue. She also utilized her unique voice in a way that tellingly juxtaposed Kes's innate wisdom and gentleness with an implacable core of strength and determination that would not be deterred. I think a some people cite her voice, while being distinctive, as another factor that facilitated a view of the character as being boring, weak and monotonic. I see it very differently, as a defining factor in the expression of a persona who has an almost preternatural calm and even serenity that serves well in accentuating the strength and power that is also there.

This isn't meant to explicitly to be a off thread paean to Jennifer Lien, but merely to suggest that in addition to an uncertain, inconsistent, and/or indifferent view given to thinking about Kes's role, I think that the showrunners seemed not to be cognizant of the extraordinary talent they had in their midst. I think that if they had been, they could have easily elevated Kes to a much more vital presence in the ensemble. Certainly some writers were open in refuting the putative reasoning given when she left, that the character had gone as far as she could and/or was too difficult to write for. I also think the line of reasoning that there was no place for Kes with Seven's arrival is a false one . There was no reason that a very compelling dynamic couldn't have been developed between the two, with Kes perhaps taking over the Doctor's role in helping to guide Seven's transformation or a number of ally/adversary scenarios that could have played out.

All of these factors make plain to me that, as portrayed,
Kes was certainly a good character. Just as clearly, she wasn't a major one, but easily could have become one but for a lack of recognition or resolution on the part of the showrunners. Instead, I think that the increasing level of appreciation that I perceive for Kes comes from my sense that Jennifer Lien was clearly one of the most superlative actors in the series, perhaps in all of Trek. This isn't a sympathetic response to her current travails. I've been of this opinion for many years, and the perspective of her rare talents has been shared openly by a number of her former colleagues from the time she left Voyager to the present day.
 
She was certainly on the verge of becoming a good character. By the end of season three, she had ditched Neelix, and had the excellent Before and After to her name.

I do think that ultimately getting rid of her in favour of Seven worked well for the show. It could have been so different though. Kim, or even Chakotay or Neelix could have gone to facilitate the arrival of Seven, so it's a shame Kes went instead.
 
Neelix leaving honestly would have made more sense given that he and Kes were no longer involved.
 
Kes was a great character who just sadly didn't get the attention and focus she deserved.
I find her kindness and gentleness to be very admirable qualities that I strive for.
Things like the short lifespan and one pregnancy (which would allow for multiple babies to be common, which would help with the obvious population problem ) weren't handled well but had potential if explored better.
I agree that Kes dying in the finale - or perhaps at that moment reaching her full potential to ascend as a higher being - could've been really touching and powerful. Alternately, Kes could have developed her abilities to correct her short life span. They could've done more stories with Suspiria (it's a shame that such an interesting antagonist was dropped after only one episode). It seems likely that the development of the Ocampans and their strange physiology - the short life span and one pregnancy could've been something the Caretaker and/or Suspiria did to them for their own reasons. Perhaps that was done to make their population deliberately smaller and more controllable. Perhaps they wanted shorter spans of time between generations in order to force-evolve the Ocampans to advance their mental abilities.
I think Neelix really dragged Kes down. From the beginning I'd have replaced Neelix with a handsome young Kazon warrior who fell in love with Kes and betrayed his people to save her. Someone closer to Kes's age and conventionally attractive would've made a more popular love interest, and some good development of this Kazon crew member could've helped develop the Kazons as an enemy race. I think the Kazons were overall a flop, but that's because they were never well developed.
I think keeping Kim was a bad choice. He was boring and nothing interesting was ever done with him.
I don't see the issue as Seven vs Kes. I like Seven too and I think that Kes could've developed a strong sisterly relationship with Seven and aided in her journey from Borg to humanity.
 
Both Kes and Neelix are characters developed by the writers with the pilot in mind. They put less thought into charting how these characters would unfold as the series progressed and both characters become out of place.

Neelix and Kes are both guides of a sort in the pilot. Kes, is a guide in respect to her planet and Neelix is a guide for the immediate area.

And when Voyager leaves these areas, the characters lose their purpose. Neelix becomes a court jester who serves dodgy vegetables and Kes becomes some sort of junior medic where the writers dither as to whether to bring out her mature traits or her use her naivety.

For me, third time lucky is the introduction of Seven of Nine. She brings the knowledge of the galaxy and becomes rightly indispensable. And Ryan is a strong actress in that role.

Lein was unlucky. She's a good actress but she got a part that the writers couldn't define properly and they struggled to make that character formidable.

As for Ensign Kim, he holds the Chekov role. Even if he goofs up alot he 'fits' into the Starfleet ensemble. The tragedy of Lein is the difficultly the writers had in inserting non-Starfleet characters into that show and giving them a credible purpose. They eventually corrected this with the genuinely versatile Seven of Nine. Seven, as a character, fits into the team like a glove. Kes never did fit in.
 
The tragedy of Lein is the difficultly the writers had in inserting non-Starfleet characters into that show and giving them a credible purpose. They eventually corrected this with the genuinely versatile Seven of Nine. Seven, as a character, fits into the team like a glove. Kes never did fit in.

True and what's worse for Lien is the fact that that they tried to give her a purpose based on supernatural abilities. That only works for characters with limited powers and even then, it's a risky business. The fact that Janeway listens to this child's confused interpretation of the aggressive hyperbole that species 8472 fling at her is even more troublesome. "Well if this alien child says species 8472 deserve to die, I guess we should just accept that and engage in genocide."

It's bad enough that Janeway allows Neelix to go on so many away missions without knowing the first thing about Starfleet procedure but to base your Borg alliance and genocidal plan on this alien child's vague and confused supernatural abilities is just idiotic.
 
Both Kes and Neelix are characters developed by the writers with the pilot in mind. They put less thought into charting how these characters would unfold as the series progressed and both characters become out of place.

Neelix and Kes are both guides of a sort in the pilot. Kes, is a guide in respect to her planet and Neelix is a guide for the immediate area.

And when Voyager leaves these areas, the characters lose their purpose. Neelix becomes a court jester who serves dodgy vegetables and Kes becomes some sort of junior medic where the writers dither as to whether to bring out her mature traits or her use her naivety.

For me, third time lucky is the introduction of Seven of Nine. She brings the knowledge of the galaxy and becomes rightly indispensable. And Ryan is a strong actress in that role.

Lein was unlucky. She's a good actress but she got a part that the writers couldn't define properly and they struggled to make that character formidable.

As for Ensign Kim, he holds the Chekov role. Even if he goofs up alot he 'fits' into the Starfleet ensemble. The tragedy of Lein is the difficultly the writers had in inserting non-Starfleet characters into that show and giving them a credible purpose. They eventually corrected this with the genuinely versatile Seven of Nine. Seven, as a character, fits into the team like a glove. Kes never did fit in.

I strongly disagree here.

I think Kes fitted in perfectly in the crew. She transformed from being just Neelix's girlfriend who was rescued from the Kazon to a character with a purpose to learn and explore.

She became a highly valuable member of the crew, an excellent nurse who helped The Doctor in the best posible way and she also did grow vegetables in the Hydroponics Bay to help to solve the food situation. She actually came up with that idea.

She also saved the ship on several occasions and her quick thinking saved The Doctor when they were about to restart him.

If there were any characters who didn't fit in, then it was Neelix and Kim. Neelix tried neurotically to please everyone with interfering in all possible doings on the ship. Kim remained "young, unexperienced Ensign Kim" for the whole series.

And Seven? Did she fit in? It was along time since I watched seasons 4, 5 and 6 but I mostly remember her complaining about everything and searching for her humanity except when the writers used her Borg technology or Borg knowledge to fix everything from the warp core and the engines to Janeway's malfunctioning hair-dryer.

I can agree that the writers could have done more with the character but Kes shared that fate with almost all of the Voyager characters.

The writers actually did a decent job with the character until they all of a sudden lost all their abilities to write for the character somewhere between season 3 and 4. There must have been some disease or virus which infected their brains so they lost their writing abilities.

I see Kes as a great and unique character. She's beautiful, nice and friendly but also strong-willed, brave, determined and curious. She has her own way to cope with problems and obstacles and she's a good contrast and complement to more standard female action characters like Janeway, Torres and maybe Seven.

Kes personifies the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore, a spirit which was lost when the weak-minded writers all of a sudden lost their ability to write for her and she was dropped from the show.
 
Kes had potential, but rarely shined. Not the fault of the character, or the actress, but of the writing. With the development of her mental powers, the biggest missed opportunity was not having Kes come back periodically (when it was decided she was out and & was in), maybe once or twice a season at least, and show how she had developed. Instead, we were given....Fury.
 
Kes had potential, but rarely shined. Not the fault of the character, or the actress, but of the writing. With the development of her mental powers, the biggest missed opportunity was not having Kes come back periodically (when it was decided she was out and & was in), maybe once or twice a season at least, and show how she had developed. Instead, we were given....Fury.

And THAT was a deliberate insult to the Kes fans which I still haven't forgotten or forgiven. :mad:
 
I think Neelix really dragged Kes down. From the beginning I'd have replaced Neelix with a handsome young Kazon warrior who fell in love with Kes and betrayed his people to save her. Someone closer to Kes's age and conventionally attractive would've made a more popular love interest, and some good development of this Kazon crew member could've helped develop the Kazons as an enemy race. I think the Kazons were overall a flop, but that's because they were never well developed.
I love this idea! A hot, buff, surly young buck who would have a lot to get over to adapt to life with a Starfleet crew. He could've also added a nice element to the whole Starfleet/Maquis tension when it was on the go, maybe an episode where more aggressive elements of the Maquis crew (or perhaps even Seska) try to use him for their own agenda against the Starfleeters.
 
It would also have added some much needed sexually chemistry and romance to the show. I can totally picture a young handsome Kazon and Kes being insanely and intensely in love with each other.

Something that was entirely missing with Neelix. That relationship was just bizarre (and often creepy) with zero chemistry.

Maybe even a young female Kazon masquerading as a male to help Kes escape then they join Voyager and can finally be together and passionately kiss on the holodeck and.... I'm getting carried away.
 
I think Neelix really dragged Kes down. From the beginning I'd have replaced Neelix with a handsome young Kazon warrior who fell in love with Kes and betrayed his people to save her. Someone closer to Kes's age and conventionally attractive would've made a more popular love interest, and some good development of this Kazon crew member could've helped develop the Kazons as an enemy race. I think the Kazons were overall a flop, but that's because they were never well developed.
I love this idea! A hot, buff, surly young buck who would have a lot to get over to adapt to life with a Starfleet crew. He could've also added a nice element to the whole Starfleet/Maquis tension when it was on the go, maybe an episode where more aggressive elements of the Maquis crew (or perhaps even Seska) try to use him for their own agenda against the Starfleeters.

I'm glad some people like this idea. Suggestions like the Kazon being manipulated by Seska, being part of Maquis/Starfleet power struggles, as well as having lots of romance and sexual chemistry with Kes is exactly the kind of things I was thinking of for the character.
 
I'm not sure I could stand a Kazon regular. They'd just portray him as a Voyager version of Worf or Nog or something. They could've made a better effort with that species than just lumpen-Klingon scavenger types.
 
Not a Kazon! :thumbdown:
Some more civilized, another Ocampa maybe.
Or Tom Paris!

Kes needed to grow out of Ocampan innocence and become a more adult character. An Ocampan boyfriend would probably have been as stifling as Neelix. It needed to be someone with greater life experience and a bit of edge. Kazon could definitely work.

Actually, wasn't that what Neelix was supposed to be until they quickly turned him into ship's pet.

I'm not sure I could stand a Kazon regular. They'd just portray him as a Voyager version of Worf or Nog or something. They could've made a better effort with that species than just lumpen-Klingon scavenger types.

The Kazon sucked because they're were two dimensional. A Kazon regular may have addressed that problem (especially if he or she found the Kazon way of life idiotic and rejected it).
 
True and what's worse for Lien is the fact that that they tried to give her a purpose based on supernatural abilities. That only works for characters with limited powers and even then, it's a risky business. The fact that Janeway listens to this child's confused interpretation of the aggressive hyperbole that species 8472 fling at her is even more troublesome. "Well if this alien child says species 8472 deserve to die, I guess we should just accept that and engage in genocide."

It's bad enough that Janeway allows Neelix to go on so many away missions without knowing the first thing about Starfleet procedure but to base your Borg alliance and genocidal plan on this alien child's vague and confused supernatural abilities is just idiotic.

I wish you could explain exactly how Kes was confused about anything the Undine communicated to her. As far as I can tell, there was nothing exaggerated or mistaken about the intentions they expressed about purging the galaxy after being disturbed from their pristine existence by the Borg. Further she didn't articulate that they should be destroyed, just that their main characteristic was a cold malevolence. Her psionic abilities were hardly confused or ill-formed at this point. They just needed a little further nudge by the writers to reach full fruition so as to expedite her departure.

Oh, Janeway never intended to commit genocide, as she clearly stated. She felt that by merely letting the Undine unequivocally understand that there was a force that could effectively combat them, that they would rethink and abandon their stated ambition. Once that message was delivered, she was satisfied that what was truly necessary to be done had been accomplished.
 
I wish you could explain exactly how Kes was confused about anything the Undine communicated to her. As far as I can tell, there was nothing exaggerated or mistaken about the intentions they expressed about purging the galaxy after being disturbed from their pristine existence by the Borg. Further she didn't articulate that they should be destroyed, just that their main characteristic was a cold malevolence. Her psionic abilities were hardly confused or ill-formed at this point. They just needed a little further nudge by the writers to reach full fruition so as to expedite her departure.

You might want to rewatch the episode. Her abilities were entirely confused and ill-formed. She lacked any context for the message and claimed "cold malevolence" on behalf of an entire species without any further exploration of her possible limitations as a message receiver. Species 8472 were the victims of an unprovoked attack. Their revenge hyperbole was exactly that; hyperbole. Then in the episode "In the flesh", we discover that there was no such malevolence; only justifiable anger. Her description of "cold malevolence" is therefore demonstrably flawed and confused. Wish granted.

Oh, Janeway never intended to commit genocide, as she clearly stated. She felt that by merely letting the Undine unequivocally understand that there was a force that could effectively combat them, that they would rethink and abandon their stated ambition. Once that message was delivered, she was satisfied that what was truly necessary to be done had been accomplished.

Nope. She bargained with their lives in order to receive unmolested passage through Borg space. She took the word of a confused child and used it to justify her actions. "Leave us alone and we will provide you with technology that will allow you to annihilate your new enemy." Even after Chakotay explained that the Borg were the agressors (not species 8472), she continued to believe her plan was acceptable.
 
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I wish you could explain exactly how Kes was confused about anything the Undine communicated to her. As far as I can tell, there was nothing exaggerated or mistaken about the intentions they expressed about purging the galaxy after being disturbed from their pristine existence by the Borg. Further she didn't articulate that they should be destroyed, just that their main characteristic was a cold malevolence. Her psionic abilities were hardly confused or ill-formed at this point. They just needed a little further nudge by the writers to reach full fruition so as to expedite her departure.

You might want to rewatch the episode. Her abilities were entirely confused and ill-formed. She lacked any context for the message and claimed "cold malevolence" on behalf of an entire species without any further exploration of her possible limitations as a message receiver. Species 8472 were the victims of an unprovoked attack. Their revenge hyperbole was exactly that; hyperbole. Then in the episode "In the flesh", we discover that there was no such malevolence; only justifiable anger. Her description of "cold malevolence" is therefore demonstrably flawed and confused. Wish granted.


Uh, not quite. What justification do you have for claiming that she had any limitations in what she was seeing and hearing? Was she slightly off on the number of bodies she saw in the Borg jigsaw puzzle? Was she entirely confused when she foresaw what was about to happen to the away team? Are you suggesting that the individual Undine that were communicating with her were selling her a bill of goods that she uncritically bought hook, line, and sinker? You must clearly have an insight into their psychology that I don't believe I've heard anyone else ever posit. What purpose would they have to do that and what evidence do you have that Kes's perceptions, even what not involving her psionic powers, were demonstrably wrong throughout the series save a few occasions? I know, I'm asking a lot of questions here, but they're all prompted by your statement above which lacks any context, or more importantly substance, in the assertions you make regarding Kes or your own apparent clairvoyance about the motivations of the Undine (see below).

As for In the Flesh, you have sort of skipped over the Undine's rationale for their elaborate simulation. They weren't just doing it for kicks or because they were studying the Federation in plans to come to Earth for an amicable get together where everyone would be singing Kumbaya. They saw the Federation as a viable enemy that had the ability to at the least confront, if not defeat them. So their plan was to scrupulously make sure that they could portray themselves as Starfleet personnel with the sole purpose of infiltration. They didn't need to clean house as they made their way through the DQ; they could accomplish that at any time. What was different in the episode, was that we saw a schism in the attitude of some of the Undine. The underlying aggression was still there across the board, just a different view on how to express it. We don't know that Janeway's entreaties would have eventually led to a lasting detente, but the two parties having an opportunity to have a face-to-face dialogue certainly seemed to blunt, at least temporarily, the Undine's desire to take the Federation down and by extension perhaps, to eliminate all the other species that previously they unambiguously had in their sights.

Oh, Janeway never intended to commit genocide, as she clearly stated. She felt that by merely letting the Undine unequivocally understand that there was a force that could effectively combat them, that they would rethink and abandon their stated ambition. Once that message was delivered, she was satisfied that what was truly necessary to be done had been accomplished.

Nope. She bargained with their lives in order to receive unmolested passage through Borg space. She took the word of a confused child and used it to justify her actions. "Leave us alone and we will provide you with technology that will allow you to annihilate your new enemy." Even after Chakotay explained that the Borg were the agressors (not species 8472), she continued to believe her plan was acceptable.

Whose lives are you referring to here? The Undines or the crew? I'm not really sure. Regardless, Janeway made her decision to parlay with the Borg on her own, maybe with a bit of suggestion from Leonardo, but Kes had absolutely nothing to do with that determination. Obviously, her connections with the Undine came long after the alliance was struck. Please cite something, dialogue, a vision, Kes crying, anything that actually happened in the episode that shows in any way that Kes had the slightest influence on Janeway's course of action with the Borg. You can't because there isn't any. So once again, we go back to the old saw about the confused child and her culpability. Well. she clearly wasn't a child, by any standards, and was almost certainly the most centered member of the crew, save Tuvok. You may want to consider substituting actual events as portrayed, for dubious suppositions and uh. bias. Perhaps your watching the episodes again might be of assistance, but only with an unjaundiced eye, if that's possible.
 
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Uh, not quite. What justification do you have for claiming that she had any limitations in what she was seeing and hearing?

Pay more attention.

Kes: I don't know. I feel malevolence, a cold hatred. The weak will perish. It's an invasion. They intend on destroying everything.

She takes the revenge hyperbole they are directing at the Borg (for their unprovoked attack) and she interprets it to be a threat to the entire galaxy and its inhabitants. At this point, species 8472 have no real understanding of the Galaxy they're attacking since they've never been there before. Taking this misinterpretation, she then influences Janeway.

Kes: Captain, it's not the Borg that we should be worried about, it's them.

Um no. They may be powerful but their aggression is justified as they have just been attacked in their own realm. Kes does not have the full context of what she is sensing and she is not in a position to adequately comprehend the basis for it. Janeway has even less justification for taking this child's interpretations seriously.

What purpose would they have to do that and what evidence do you have that Kes's perceptions, even what not involving her psionic powers, were demonstrably wrong throughout the series save a few occasions?

Throughout the series? What?

I'm gonna just keep repeating myself until it makes a glorious impact. She does not have an adequate grasp of the things she is sensing (her powers demonstrably being something she doesn't fully have control or comprehension of... see Cold fire, The gift). It is out of context. She might not be guilty of failing to take that into consideration but Janeway certainly is.

As for In the Flesh, you have sort of skipped over the Undine's rationale for their elaborate simulation. They weren't just doing it for kicks or because they were studying the Federation in plans to come to Earth for an amicable get together where everyone would be singing Kumbaya. They saw the Federation as a viable enemy that had the ability to at the least confront, if not defeat them. So their plan was to scrupulously make sure that they could portray themselves as Starfleet personnel with the sole purpose of infiltration. They didn't need to clean house as they made their way through the DQ; they could accomplish that at any time. What was different in the episode, was that we saw a schism in the attitude of some of the Undine. The underlying aggression was still there across the board, just a different view on how to express it. We don't know that Janeway's entreaties would have eventually led to a lasting detente, but the two parties having an opportunity to have a face-to-face dialogue certainly seemed to blunt, at least temporarily, the Undine's desire to take the Federation down and by extension perhaps, to eliminate all the other species that previously they unambiguously had in their sights.

Nope. Try watching the episodes again, you clearly missed a great deal.

Species 8472 believe the Federation is planning an attack. They know so little about this "galaxy" that they supposedly want to destroy that they actually believe the Federation is all around them and an attack is imminent. They don't even understand that the Federation is thousands of light-years away.

BULLOCK: The Borg are irrelevant. It's the humans that pose a threat.
CHAKOTAY: They think the Federation is a hostile invasion force out to destroy their species.
JANEWAY: I see. So you're planning a pre-emptive strike against Earth.
BOOTHBY: Maybe I am.
JANEWAY: You realise I can't let that happen.
BOOTHBY: Go ahead, fire your damn nanoprobes. Blow our re-creation to high heavens. There are a dozen more scattered throughout the quadrant. You'll never find them all.
JANEWAY: What if I told you that Starfleet isn't planning an invasion? That no one on Earth has even heard of you?
BOOTHBY: I'd say you're lying.

Additionally, their putative melovelance and desire to destroy the galaxy is actually....

BULLOCK: Don't answer her. She's manipulating us.
ARCHER: If you won't answer, I will.
BULLOCK: Commander.
ARCHER: Our mission is to infiltrate your home world, to place operatives in the highest levels of Starfleet, monitor your military installations. It's a reconnaissance mission, nothing more.

.... a reconnaissance mission. Nothing more. Hardly the stuff of molevalent galaxy destroyers.

Whose lives are you referring to here? The Undines or the crew? I'm not really sure. Regardless, Janeway made her decision to parlay with the Borg on her own, maybe with a bit of suggestion from Leonardo, but Kes had absolutely nothing to do with that determination. Obviously, her connections with the Undine came long after the alliance was struck. Please cite something, dialogue, a vision, Kes crying, anything that actually happened in the episode that shows in any way that Kes had the slightest influence on Janeway's course of action with the Borg. You can't because there isn't any.

Let me keep on trucking. Keep on keeping on.

Kes: Captain, it's not the Borg that we should be worried about, it's them.

So once again, we go back to the old saw about the confused child and her culpability. Well. she clearly wasn't a child, by any standards, and was almost certainly the most centered member of the crew, save Tuvok. You may want to consider substituting actual events as portrayed, for dubious suppositions and uh. bias. Perhaps your watching the episodes again might be of assistance, but only with an unjaundiced eye, if that's possible.

Durrp. Nope. I think one ought to consider ones own desire not to tarnish the reputation of ones favourite character for one is stretching. Clearly the bias is with you; perhaps greater self-awareness is something to pursue.

"In the flesh" exists. Interpreting away the consequences of what it shows us or just plainly ignoring them... won't do.

I understand the complexity of the average Voyager episode may bamboozle the more gentle mind but they're really not that hard to get to grips with if you put the effort in. I'm sure you have the capacity to do so with the right encouragement and attitude. I'm here to assist you in that endeavour. Embracing the crappy episodes that contradict other episodes and make characters you love, look like idiots is all part of the Trek experience. We've all been there. You're not alone. You're among friends.
 
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