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Agents of SHIELD: Season 3 - Discussion (SPOILERS LIKELY)

She didn't kiss (even on the cheek) any of the 3, or even so much as hold hands with them and she knew all 3 longer than she knew Will

Most of the characters in AoS haven't had anyone to make out with or hold hands with since the show began. Coulson, so far as we know, has literally not gotten laid since he was resurrected until this week. Do we take this to mean that Coulson is chaste? Or Tripp?
Right, Jemma had opportunities prior to being taken by the Monolith and passed on all of them or at least took her time. The first time we see Coulson with the opportunity, he does not take his time. Coulson is not "chaste". ;)

Jumping into the sack after only six months."

Like six months is some unreasonably short period of time.
It is, from what we've seen of Jemma.
Says who?

If nothing else, the deleted scene from S1 tells us what the writers' intentions are with the Simmons character. And their intentions are decidedly not that she is "chaste."
"Says" the fact that the deleted scene was not in an episode. The writers have shown us their intent by what we have seen in episodes. If what was in that deleted scene had any importance or impact on the story, we would have seen it in an episode.

For all we know, the producers could have felt that the message conveyed in the scene was in conflict with what we have previously been shown of who Jemma is and maybe that is why it was deleted.
 
Well, that's the thing about Fitz -- he now knows that Simmons loves him. But he also knows that she loves Will. And he's not going to prematurely try to force a decision out of her. Because he loves her.

We know that they're gonna get Will back soon,

Do well?

and that he survived his encounter with the specter, because drama, but they don't know that, and to me, Simmons asking what they should do was a pretty clear signal to him that he doesn't have to hold back entirely on Will's account.

On the other hand, I don't think Jemma is in any emotional state to be entering a relationship right now. She is still recovering from the trauma of surviving Planet Hell for six months.

Which I think is another thing that's factoring into Fitz's decision -- he knows better than to rush into this.

She's not in love with Will.

Maybe if she's an (emotional) idiot, Jemma thinks that she's in love with Will.

But she ain't.

It was the situation and the sex.

I mean, that just begs the question of what it means to love someone, doesn't it?

I do think Jemma loves both of them. That doesn't mean that a relationship with Will would actually function back on Earth, or that her feelings for him wouldn't change. But I also am not inclined to invalidate someone's feelings as somehow not being "true."

She didn't kiss (even on the cheek) any of the 3, or even so much as hold hands with them and she knew all 3 longer than she knew Will

Most of the characters in AoS haven't had anyone to make out with or hold hands with since the show began. Coulson, so far as we know, has literally not gotten laid since he was resurrected until this week. Do we take this to mean that Coulson is chaste? Or Tripp?

Right, Jemma had opportunities prior to being taken by the Monolith and passed on all of them or at least took her time.

Coulson has had opportunities numerous times in Seasons One and Two and chose not to pursue them. This does not mean Coulson is chaste; he had specific reasons.

Same with Jemma. You can't separate her arc with Tripp from the fact that shortly after they became aware of their mutual attraction, her entire world fell apart when Hydra revealed itself and SHIELD collapsed. This drew her into a constant state of crisis for several weeks -- at the end of which, Fitz revealed his feelings for her, leading into their arc in Season Two.

So, no, having not pursued one relationship at the same time that she was engulfed in a huge political crisis does not constitute evidence that she is "chaste."

The first time we see Coulson with the opportunity, he does not take his time.

False. Coulson turned down a beautiful woman in the very second episode of the series. And it was pretty clear in the first half of Season Two that he had wanted to, he could probably have pursued something with May.

Coulson is not "chaste," but he chose not to pursue some relationships even if he had an interest. Same with Jemma.

Jumping into the sack after only six months."

Like six months is some unreasonably short period of time.
It is, from what we've seen of Jemma.

This is circular logic; you are relying on an a priori assumption that Jemma's romantic relationships rely on periods of time exceeding six months between first encounter and the beginning of intimacy, without there being clear evidence of this assumption.

Says who?

If nothing else, the deleted scene from S1 tells us what the writers' intentions are with the Simmons character. And their intentions are decidedly not that she is "chaste."

"Says" the fact that the deleted scene was not in an episode.

So? That does not mean it "doesn't count." It means it wasn't in the episode. Nothing in the series has contradicted that deleted scene. It's not like there are varying levels of fictional, here; it's all equally made up.

The writers have shown us their intent by what we have seen in episodes. If what was in that deleted scene had any importance or impact on the story, we would have seen it in an episode.

This argument completely ignores the numerous instances in which circumstances beyond producers' control (allotted time slots, etc.) require them to cut sequences they would prefer to keep.

You continue to insist on some bizarre, sexist ideal of a "chaste" woman, in spite of there being zero evidence in favor of it.
 
I think FitzSimmons may have just found the HYDRA connection....

ETA: YAHP! Pay up, people! :lol:

Face it...HYDRA is a through-line in this series...SHIELD's nemesis. Embrace it.
 
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Aw man. They just went with that "Hydra is an ancient conspiracy" bullshit.

Though frankly I think Malick's claim is kind of suspect. I can buy Hydra as a modern off-shoot of this ancient conspiracy. But the Red Skull was pretty explicit about his having founded Hydra, and about his intentions for it. And none of it matched the idea of "we're trying to bring back our Supreme Leader from Planet Hell."

ETA:

In fairness, thinking about it, the Ancient Conspiracy's philosophy that there is an Inhuman who is destined to rule and must be served does match Hydra's basic version of paranormal fascism -- the idea that the superior race won't be regular humans, but will be people with superpowers, as embodied by the Red Skull. But still. Hydra as an offshoot of Nazism was more plausible (and I think more sinister) than Hydra-as-ancient-conspiracy. (Also, this doesn't match Armin Zola's claims about Hydra's origins in CA:TWS.)
 
Okay, it's exactly what others predicted and what I hoped it wouldn't be. I was hoping the underlying threat would turn out to be something new.

And Hydra's purpose is to herald the return of an Inhuman leader destined to rule the world? That's really corny. Do we know any Marvel villain who fits that description? I'm reminded of Apocalypse, but he's off in another studio's movie and another continuity. Anyway, I assume it's either the entity from Will's planet or Will himself. Oh, I can definitely see it being the latter. It takes the form of Will and endears itself to Jemma so that she'll have an incentive to bring it back to Earth. Although how could it know she had a chance of getting home?

I sorta figured that Rosalyn would turn out to be a well-intentioned dupe. Banks turning out to be okay is a bit surprising, though. Just about the only thing here that wasn't predictable.

Are Bobbi's magnetic remote-controlled truncheons part of Mockingbird's gear in the comics?
 
Let's just be grateful that Ward's little HYDRA-Man SHIELD-Haters Club finally has something going for it.
 
And Hydra's purpose is to herald the return of an Inhuman leader destined to rule the world? That's really corny.

You know, I'm torn. On one hand, fascism is usually characterized by a belief in the superiority of a particular nationality and therefore its right to rule and to subjugate others. So if you're doing fantastical fascists superpowered people, the idea of Hydra as a fascist organization working to bring about the return of a superpowered "Supreme Leader" whom they believe is destined to rule does make a lot of sense, if you're looking to construct a fantastical ideology for them and to give them a motivation other than "let us rule the world."

On the other hand, yeah, the idea of Hydra as an ancient conspiracy that retcons what CA:TFA and CA:TWS established about them is just really corny and doesn't jell with the established motivations of Zola or the Red Skull.

I'd be happier if Malick had claimed that Hydra had inherited knowledge of the Monolith and the Monster on Planet Hell from an ancient cult, and that they wished to use the ancient cult's knowledge to bring about the return of the Red Skull. That way, it would preserve this notion that Hydra has a supreme leader whom they venerate (another trait of fascism) and whom they want back, but it would cut out the ridiculous "Hydra is thousands of years old" nonsense.

Anyway, I assume it's either the entity from Will's planet or Will himself. Oh, I can definitely see it being the latter. It takes the form of Will and endears itself to Jemma so that she'll have an incentive to bring it back to Earth. Although how could it know she had a chance of getting home?

I could see that, but I hope it doesn't go that way. I'd much rather see a story about Jemma having to make a hard choice between Fitz and Will than one in which Jemma's choice is made easier by Will turning out to be Hydra's "dear leader."

* * *

Some quick thoughts on FitzSimmons...

Simmons is getting scared. She knows that the closer they get to bringing Will back, the sooner she'll have to make a choice. And she doesn't want to do that, doesn't want to hurt Will or Fitz.

But she's also getting anxious. Because Fitz is just being too good, he's too anxious to save Will. It made her feel like maybe he doesn't really want her anymore. So she provokes him into showing her the fact that, yes, he does still want her and he is jealous of Will. This is probably not the most mature way of handling her feelings. But there again, she did just endure life-altering trauma and now her therapist has turned out to be a mutant serial killer, so I can cut her some slack.

Fitz is being too much of a defeatist. "We're cursed." Well, why are you assuming she is going to pick him over you, doofus? I get why you're finally putting pressure on her to make a choice -- she basically provoked you into showing more of your inner desire for her when she got anxious that you might not want her anymore. But you know full well that she needs time and you've gotta give it to her. I suppose Fitz is just kind of assuming she will pick Will over him because of his ingrained inferiority complex; consider his relationship with Ward pre-Hydra uprising, whom he both idolized and was jealous of. (Remember him sulking at the end of "FZZT" over the fact that it was Ward who saved Jemma from the fall out of the Bus and not him?)

But you're a different man now, Fitz. You're tougher and you've had your heart broken and put back together again. And so has Simmons. You oughta assign yourself more value.

ETA:

That kiss tho.
 
Question: did Jonathan Hickman get any "special thanks" credit tonight in the end titles?

I do have a reason for asking, and it ties into Secret Warriors # 1's back-pages text material.
 
That thing that Jemma ate on Planet Hell? HYDRA's mascot.

Good catch!

ETA:

Given Jeffrey Bell's involvement in the show and the reference to the ram's head, and then the Hydra-as-ancient-conspiracy angle...

... am I the only one who was reminded of Wolfram and Hart from Angel?
 
Maximus the Mad, Blackbolt's brother, controls other people sorta psychically.

That kinda m... Oh my.

What if Will isn't Will?

(Yes, we've all already said saltvampire.)

But an immortal telepathic Inhman Prince could have put any cock and bull story in Jemma's head while she was out there in kree Space.
 
I think Gideon would also have a method to brainwash inhumans to do Hydra's bidding, which I guess could be a variation of the "Faustus" method Whitehall used to brainwash Agent 33.

Though I doubt brainwashing Andrew/Lash is going to be as easy as when Ward brainwashed Bakshi.
 
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Well that's just a little disappointing.

I can only assume this means Zola didn't know about the portal/inhuman fuhrer thing. Perhaps Schmit did found Hydra as we know it, but built it around that old, long extinct death cult? I don't know

On the other hand, at least now we know the meaning of those holes in the monolith. How many were there again? I'm assuming not all the fragments are kept in one place. Also, I'm a little unclear as to how or why Hydra allowed to their most powerful and sacred(?) artefact to be kept by SHIELD loyalists. You'd think they'd have that one kept way way waaaaaay off the books.

You know what would be an interesting twist? If that Inhuman dust storm thing turns out to be benign. I mean it has no control over crazy death cults that get formed back on Earth in it's memory, no? What if "Will" is something else (Skrull?) that takes the form of those sacrifices and the "creature" was trying to warn Simmons?

Will turning out to be a threat is probably the easiest way to get out of the whole love triangle situation.
 
Well that's just a little disappointing.

I can only assume this means Zola didn't know about the portal/inhuman fuhrer thing. Perhaps Schmit did found Hydra as we know it, but built it around that old, long extinct death cult? I don't know.

That seems more plausible to me.

Hydra-as-ancient-conspiracy has other problems with plausibility. Why make its existence public? (They literally had a German government seal that said "Hydra Division by the Appointment of the Führer!") Why move its base of operations to Germany? Why use the name "Hydra" openly? How did they get Hitler to approve them if they were a pre-existing organization based in England?

Your hypothesis -- Schmidt was inspired by an ancient death cult (maybe this death cult alerted him to the reality of Asgardian artifacts?) and preserved and perpetuated some of their ideas, but founded Hydra as a new organization -- makes a bit more sense.
 
Well strictly speaking a Nazi with a red skull face using the power of a cosmic cube (left on earth by the literal Norse god Odin no less) go to take over the world also has problems with plausibility, so I suppose it's all relative. ;)

The way I'm thinking is that maybe Schmit decided they were done waiting for their ubermacht messiah and decided to remake himself in it's image, hence taking Dr. Erskine's unfinished serum, co-opting the old cult's symbology (something the Nazis were well known for--just look up where the swastika comes from) and his desire to "take the power of the gods" for himself. Not a perfect retcon, but it sort of makes sense, in a crazy Nazi megalomaniac kind of way.

Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but in the comics, Albert Malik was the second Red Skull after Schmit. Now that could just be a red herring to throw fans off the scent, but it's possible they might pull a "he's been Schmit in disguise the whole time" rabbit of of the hat. There's no way they'd get Hugo Weaving back for a TV show, but I could see them using Powers Booth as a "Red Skull with a new face."
 
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