What is Star Trek and its future?
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And that was hardly a secret, seeing as how "The Balance of Terror" established Federation knowledge of Romulan appearance prior to the "Enterprise Incident." It was a much bigger deal in BoT.
It wasn't exactly "established" knowledge.
Spock did say that a connection was likely, but give the number of alien species that resemble Humans (and the later species seen in Who Watches the Watchers) there was no way the Federation could have known at the time of Enterprise Incident that Romulans for a fact were originally Vulcans.
Not with what we saw on screen.
Spock did say that a connection was likely, but give the number of alien species that resemble Humans (and the later species seen in Who Watches the Watchers) there was no way the Federation could have known at the time of Enterprise Incident that Romulans for a fact were originally Vulcans.
Not with what we saw on screen.
There is no indication in TOS that Romulans make any attempt, or have any interest, in hiding their appearance or that they care at all if other species know they have a connection to Vulcans.
The impression you get watching Balance of Terror, is that it just so happens that they didn't see each other face to face. Not that humans didn't want Romulans to know what they looked like, or vice versa.
It's not clear why that is. Visual communication exists even in 2015. It seems that the intent was to show an example of "push button warfare", a phrase and a concept popular in the mid 20 th century. The notion that in a future war, enemies might sit thousands of miles apart in control rooms and lob waves of missiles and nukes at each other, without fighting face to face.
Spock indicates that they did communicate with each other through subspace radio. Audio only, apparently. But there is no reason to assume that that was due to humans refusing to be seen by Romulans or vice versa.
The impression you get watching Balance of Terror, is that it just so happens that they didn't see each other face to face. Not that humans didn't want Romulans to know what they looked like, or vice versa.
It's not clear why that is. Visual communication exists even in 2015. It seems that the intent was to show an example of "push button warfare", a phrase and a concept popular in the mid 20 th century. The notion that in a future war, enemies might sit thousands of miles apart in control rooms and lob waves of missiles and nukes at each other, without fighting face to face.
Spock indicates that they did communicate with each other through subspace radio. Audio only, apparently. But there is no reason to assume that that was due to humans refusing to be seen by Romulans or vice versa.
Just because we (Humans) are making visual communications increasingly common doesn't mean that such communications would be a priority to a alien race with completely different ideas.
That the Romulan War cease fire/"peace" treaty would have used audio to arrange wasn't (iirc) mentioned, it easily could have been solely text exchanges.
That the Romulan War cease fire/"peace" treaty would have used audio to arrange wasn't (iirc) mentioned, it easily could have been solely text exchanges.
Just look at warfare today. We see the increasing use of drones. It's possible that in the future enemies will fight each other via drones and robots. If both the Romulans and humans made extensive use of drones and remote control robots it's unlikely they would actually see each other.
About the visual communication, video signals are pretty complex. Not to mention all the encoding and compression. Viewing somebody else's video transmission, especially an alien one, will never be as simple as tuning in to the right frequency.
About the visual communication, video signals are pretty complex. Not to mention all the encoding and compression. Viewing somebody else's video transmission, especially an alien one, will never be as simple as tuning in to the right frequency.
From Balance of Terror to Nemesis, there is no indication the Romulans have any concern or care for whether anyone knows that they have pointy ears nor that they always refused visual communication. They hail ships, and accept hails with visual on various occasions.
They were originally an alien of the week and thus I doubt a whole lot of th ought was put into the back story. Clearly they didn't know that a show would later be set in that era. If they did, I doubt they would have said that humans had never seen Romulans.
For the sake of that one dramatic visual of Mark Lenards pointy ears, we get saddled with this nonsense about never being able to show them even though years of war would have revealed their identity.
One, single damaged Romulan ship, and the scan will show they are close to Vulcans. You have to claim that every Romulan ship, even their garbage scows have impenetrable blocking fields that function even when the ships is wrecked in battle. Or that they instantly self destruct after even the smallest hull breach and then atomize the bodies to prevent scans. All within a fraction of a second to prevent even an instant of sensors scanning them.
It's Ludicrous. It's easier to just retcon and ignore those lines from Balance of terror.
They were originally an alien of the week and thus I doubt a whole lot of th ought was put into the back story. Clearly they didn't know that a show would later be set in that era. If they did, I doubt they would have said that humans had never seen Romulans.
For the sake of that one dramatic visual of Mark Lenards pointy ears, we get saddled with this nonsense about never being able to show them even though years of war would have revealed their identity.
One, single damaged Romulan ship, and the scan will show they are close to Vulcans. You have to claim that every Romulan ship, even their garbage scows have impenetrable blocking fields that function even when the ships is wrecked in battle. Or that they instantly self destruct after even the smallest hull breach and then atomize the bodies to prevent scans. All within a fraction of a second to prevent even an instant of sensors scanning them.
It's Ludicrous. It's easier to just retcon and ignore those lines from Balance of terror.
Problem is those lines are the foundation for all tension in the episode. Is Spock a Romulan spy or not?
KIRK: Mister Stiles, are you questioning my orders?
STILES: Negative, sir. I'm pointing our that we could have Romulan spies aboard this ship.
SULU: I agree, sir. Respectfully recommend all decks maintain security alert.
If we already know what Romulans look like then the credibility of Spock being a spy decreases.
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Not at all. The bigotry could be pre existing. His bigotry and suspicion about Spock and Vulcans could be long standing. The racial tension doesn't change by knowing Romulans look like all along. On the contrary, it might make even more likely to have a long standing racial bias towards Vulcans.
Maybe he thinks (fairly or not) that the Vulcans didnt help enough in the Romulan War and those Stiles that died might have done better and lived. Hard to say. But all the racism and racial tension works just fine either way.
Maybe he thinks (fairly or not) that the Vulcans didnt help enough in the Romulan War and those Stiles that died might have done better and lived. Hard to say. But all the racism and racial tension works just fine either way.
Interesting thoughts. But the problem I see is that Stiles' bigotry would have been dealt with long before this episode. Stiles hates Romulans because of what happened during the war. But he has no face to go with the hate. Suddenly it is discovered that Romulans look just like Vulcans. It is then that Stiles' hate spills over onto Spock.
If humans knew what Romulans looked like then Stiles would have directed his bigotry to Vulcans long ago. Either he would not longer be on the Enterprise or he would have gotten over it by then.
Now you could argue that the episode could be written in a way that doesn't need these elements. However, in looking at the episode as is, I think not knowing what Romulans look like is essential for the episode as it is.
But, there is no need to discard the line out of hand, simply because we need to make it fit in to later interpretations of Romulan behavior. The idea that they are against visual communications before BoT and then ok afterwards might simply be that they feel no reason to hide anymore. Same thing with the episode, "The Neutral Zone." Romulans are very secretive, like hiding and manipulating and concealment. The fact that they use cloaking devices makes far more sense than Klingons, if you think about it.
Romulans also have a problem with letting technology fall in to enemy hands. The idea that facing overwhelming odds the Romulan commanders would be under orders to scuttle their ships is not out of line with their behavior.
Romulans also have a problem with letting technology fall in to enemy hands. The idea that facing overwhelming odds the Romulan commanders would be under orders to scuttle their ships is not out of line with their behavior.
I agree with fireproof. Also the Klingon cloaks seem to me to be a direct result of encountering Romulan cloaks and thus creating them to ensure equal honor was used became important. Then Klingons started getting used to cloaking and it became more habit than tactic.
And to Hela. Betazoids can't read Founders. That means of all races Betazoids would have the easiest time undermining the Dominion as theycan hear Jem'Hadar and Vorta thoughts, so are aware of them. And can conduct many conversations without words. Thus making it impossible for Founders to eavesdrop. The Dominion made a big mistake conquering Betazed. I feel that's a fact.
And to Hela. Betazoids can't read Founders. That means of all races Betazoids would have the easiest time undermining the Dominion as theycan hear Jem'Hadar and Vorta thoughts, so are aware of them. And can conduct many conversations without words. Thus making it impossible for Founders to eavesdrop. The Dominion made a big mistake conquering Betazed. I feel that's a fact.
Or it was a important tactical move, deprive the Federation of a large populations of "Founder detectors." The Betazeds off of their homeworld would likely be several thousands (or more), and could only be in so many places.
Where was it said that Betazeds couldn't read Founders?
I think it's pretty apparent in BoT that this is the Federation's first look at the Romulans. Or at least it's the first "official" look at them.
James Blish's adaptation of BoT references bodies recovered during the war that revealed the similarity to Vulcans and that Vulcan claimed no knowledge of the Romulans or their origins. Now that adaptation doesn't really count as far as what we see onscreen, but it suggests a thought. Earth forces might have indeed recovered bodies from wrecked ships and the discovering the similarity to the Vulcans could have been a shock. The Vulcans then either deny knowledge or fess up as to who these "Vulcanoids" might be and the whole thing is classified top secret to prevent any friction between Earth and Vulcan and other allies.
So in the strictest sense a very few individuals in the Federation might already know about the Romulans, but the general public and the vast majority of Starfleet hasn't any clue...until the events seen in BoT.
If that's so then the reveal could be a touchy subject in the Federation Council and between certain member worlds--all of which we never see because we're following the adventures of the Enterprise and her crew.
Oh no, I think it could be written to say that he always did have a long standing bias involving Romulans and Vulcans. Racists can and do serve in Armies, Navies, Air Forces, etc. Even after serving with people of other races? Yes. Some do.
But Spock saving him gave him food for thought. The rest of the episode plays the same way.
Well clearly some in the Vulcan high command knew who they were. One of them had meetings with the Romulans.
And yes, of course there would have been Romulan bodies, not to mention live Romulans on colonies, transports, space stations, etc. One scan of even one damaged ship, or base, or some bodies anywhere at all, and the jig is up. And there would have been.
To me the Romulans were never seen or scanned is up there with no female captains in the 2260s when it comes to absurdities begging for a retcon.
Depends on how the battles were engaged. If the Romulans were the aggressors, then perhaps the Federation never saw their colonies, the limited contact was not enough to confirm a relationship between Romulans and Vulcans.
Not sure why it's a sticking point. How long the war lasted, and the means of combat have never been clear.
This comes back to issues some have with ENT: how "primitive" was the technology supposed to be a century before TOS?
It's one thing to perhaps detect life scans and perhaps another to discern specific life signs of a given race.
Spock stated that no human or Romulan has ever seen the other and treaty was established by audio communication only.
How can that be interpreted?
It tells me that Spock and the rest of the crew actually believe that because that's what they've been taught. As far as the entirety of the Enterprise crew is concerned they have no idea what the Romulans look like. Even Spock looks genuinely surprised.
And yet in space combat how likely is it that bodies weren't recovered for study to learn more about the enemy and their potential weaknesses?
Not likely at all.
So the likelihood is that Earth (and her allies?) did learn what Romulans look like, but they kept that knowledge to a need-to-know basis and classified everything. And that might be where Spock's comment about neither side giving the other no quarter and no mercy comes from. Once Earth had that knowledge there was no longer any need to recover bodies or even rescue possible survivors. So commanders were told to totally destroy the enemy. And propoganda was ramped up (like it often is) to reinforce that mindset. The result was savagery on both sides.
When the war is over everything remains classified and because the Romulans don't utter a peeop for a century it's relatively easy for succeeding generations to accept the "official" story. The lack of visual communication during treaty negotiations could have been just as much Earth's idea as the Romulans in order to keep the secret. Or maybe that, too, was just a story to keep the Romulans mysterious and menacing in the public consciousness.
If Stiles feelings--based on family history and stories handed down--are any indication of past and current animosities then the last thing Earth needed back in the day and toward the present was to have added public friction with their relatively new allies, the Vulcans.
It's one thing to perhaps detect life scans and perhaps another to discern specific life signs of a given race.
Spock stated that no human or Romulan has ever seen the other and treaty was established by audio communication only.
How can that be interpreted?
It tells me that Spock and the rest of the crew actually believe that because that's what they've been taught. As far as the entirety of the Enterprise crew is concerned they have no idea what the Romulans look like. Even Spock looks genuinely surprised.
And yet in space combat how likely is it that bodies weren't recovered for study to learn more about the enemy and their potential weaknesses?
Not likely at all.
So the likelihood is that Earth (and her allies?) did learn what Romulans look like, but they kept that knowledge to a need-to-know basis and classified everything. And that might be where Spock's comment about neither side giving the other no quarter and no mercy comes from. Once Earth had that knowledge there was no longer any need to recover bodies or even rescue possible survivors. So commanders were told to totally destroy the enemy. And propoganda was ramped up (like it often is) to reinforce that mindset. The result was savagery on both sides.
When the war is over everything remains classified and because the Romulans don't utter a peeop for a century it's relatively easy for succeeding generations to accept the "official" story. The lack of visual communication during treaty negotiations could have been just as much Earth's idea as the Romulans in order to keep the secret. Or maybe that, too, was just a story to keep the Romulans mysterious and menacing in the public consciousness.
If Stiles feelings--based on family history and stories handed down--are any indication of past and current animosities then the last thing Earth needed back in the day and toward the present was to have added public friction with their relatively new allies, the Vulcans.
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