Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?

[Tarek71]

^Although that means nothing to people who just argue for the sake of arguing

Nope. Nothing in the film "definitively" establishes what universes elder Spock comes from. That has nothing to do with anyone arguing for its own sake. Indeed the accusation seems leveled only to the one you disagree with and not the people who do just as much arguing, but whose position you agree with.

 

[Dukhat]

Uh huh. I'm done trying to see who has the bigger schlong here, which is what this conversation has basically degraded into.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Oh gods this thread has gone awry... I feel bad for starting it ..

 

[Trekkin]

Yep. You're the source.

 

[Wulff359]

Based on the previous posts about quantum realities, I have a new theory. In Prime Universe, Spock jumps from post Nemesis to the Kelvin and stays within the Prime Universe. The Kelvin, the Enterprise, the Klingons, Kirk, Spock, McCoy and so on look exactly like they were looking in TOS.

BUT: In an alternate reality, an alternate Spock jumps from an alternate future to his alternate past, and the Kelvin, the Enterprise, the Klingons, Kirk, Spock, McCoy and so on look like they do in the NuMovies.

So Prime Spock stays in the Prime Timeline, NuSpock stays in the NuTimeline. But the camera, that filmed the movie, and shows us the story unfold jumps from PrimeFuture to NuPast... This way everybody can recognise each other without wondering about the changed appearence, or why Chekov was born way early.

Does that make any sense or should I change my prescription pills?

 

[Mudd]

It's a fine theory, but not supported by in-universe evidence. Old Spock is explicitly established in the movie as being TOS Spock.

 

[martok2112]

Spock Prime is the Spock that those who have followed Trek closely over the years know him to be, from TOS and TNG. It is implied so because of his reactions to James Kirk, Montgomery Scott, and his younger self.

In the grand scheme of things, no other universe prior to the events of Star Trek 2009 is being considered....not even the Mirror Universe from TOS.

This is the idea being conveyed to those who follow Trek closely, and it is the general idea of those who know enough about Trek to know just who Spock is.

The only two universes in play here are the Prime (TOS) universe, and the universe established after Nero's arrival.

Why, oh why, would any writer want to have anyone, let alone those who closely follow Trek, wracking their brains out trying to figure out just which Spock they mean by Spock Prime? Folk want to leave the theater having been entertained, not confused.

There is the Star Trek that was, and the Star Trek that is now. The bridge has been formed between two known points. There are no unknowns to consider.

Yes, it might be nice to consider the other possibilities, but that was not the intent with Trek 2009. It's all well and good to think on the possibilities, but not when it has devolved into arguments and general discord.

It would not do to have Spock from universe X be Spock Prime because who knows what the hell went on in that universe. There's not going to be some "Aha!" moment in a future film where all of a sudden, viewers are going to say: "So, Spock Prime was from Universe X, and not the universe established in the original series!" And it sure as hell isn't going to be: "Oh, so Spock Prime is actually Mirror Spock, he just shaved his beard and had an enlightenment period over the years!"

Spock Prime is from that which we know to be the territory of The Original Series.

 

[Tarek71]

Based on the previous posts about quantum realities, I have a new theory. In Prime Universe, Spock jumps from post Nemesis to the Kelvin and stays within the Prime Universe. The Kelvin, the Enterprise, the Klingons, Kirk, Spock, McCoy and so on look exactly like they were looking in TOS.

BUT: In an alternate reality, an alternate Spock jumps from an alternate future to his alternate past, and the Kelvin, the Enterprise, the Klingons, Kirk, Spock, McCoy and so on look like they do in the NuMovies.

So Prime Spock stays in the Prime Timeline, NuSpock stays in the NuTimeline. But the camera, that filmed the movie, and shows us the story unfold jumps from PrimeFuture to NuPast... This way everybody can recognise each other without wondering about the changed appearence, or why Chekov was born way early.

Does that make any sense or should I change my prescription pills?

Ha! Well, even if Kirk looked like Bill Shatner and Uhura looked like Nichelle Nichols, etc JJ would still be allowed to say that this is an alternate reality. In "Parallels" the various different alternate quantum Worfs, Rikers and Datas all looked pretty much the same.

 

[Tarek71]

It's a fine theory, but not supported by in-universe evidence. Old Spock is explicitly established in the movie as being TOS Spock.

No such explicit or definitive evidence exists on screen and in-universe.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

 

[fireproof78]

Spock Prime is the Spock that those who have followed Trek closely over the years know him to be, from TOS and TNG. It is implied so because of his reactions to James Kirk, Montgomery Scott, and his younger self.

In the grand scheme of things, no other universe prior to the events of Star Trek 2009 is being considered....not even the Mirror Universe from TOS.

This is the idea being conveyed to those who follow Trek closely, and it is the general idea of those who know enough about Trek to know just who Spock is.

The only two universes in play here are the Prime (TOS) universe, and the universe established after Nero's arrival.

Why, oh why, would any writer want to have anyone, let alone those who closely follow Trek, wracking their brains out trying to figure out just which Spock they mean by Spock Prime? Folk want to leave the theater having been entertained, not confused.

There is the Star Trek that was, and the Star Trek that is now. The bridge has been formed between two known points. There are no unknowns to consider.

Yes, it might be nice to consider the other possibilities, but that was not the intent with Trek 2009. It's all well and good to think on the possibilities, but not when it has devolved into arguments and general discord.

It would not do to have Spock from universe X be Spock Prime because who knows what the hell went on in that universe. There's not going to be some "Aha!" moment in a future film where all of a sudden, viewers are going to say: "So, Spock Prime was from Universe X, and not the universe established in the original series!" And it sure as hell isn't going to be: "Oh, so Spock Prime is actually Mirror Spock, he just shaved his beard and had an enlightenment period over the years!"

Spock Prime is from that which we know to be the territory of The Original Series.

Occam's Razor?

Actually, author's intent. Regardless of what appears onscreen I still go with what the authors intended. It may not be clear but it is clear enough for me.

Also, regardless of which universe, it does nothing to diminish my enjoyment of the films.

 

[martok2112]

Spock Prime is the Spock that those who have followed Trek closely over the years know him to be, from TOS and TNG. It is implied so because of his reactions to James Kirk, Montgomery Scott, and his younger self.

In the grand scheme of things, no other universe prior to the events of Star Trek 2009 is being considered....not even the Mirror Universe from TOS.

This is the idea being conveyed to those who follow Trek closely, and it is the general idea of those who know enough about Trek to know just who Spock is.

The only two universes in play here are the Prime (TOS) universe, and the universe established after Nero's arrival.

Why, oh why, would any writer want to have anyone, let alone those who closely follow Trek, wracking their brains out trying to figure out just which Spock they mean by Spock Prime? Folk want to leave the theater having been entertained, not confused.

There is the Star Trek that was, and the Star Trek that is now. The bridge has been formed between two known points. There are no unknowns to consider.

Yes, it might be nice to consider the other possibilities, but that was not the intent with Trek 2009. It's all well and good to think on the possibilities, but not when it has devolved into arguments and general discord.

It would not do to have Spock from universe X be Spock Prime because who knows what the hell went on in that universe. There's not going to be some "Aha!" moment in a future film where all of a sudden, viewers are going to say: "So, Spock Prime was from Universe X, and not the universe established in the original series!" And it sure as hell isn't going to be: "Oh, so Spock Prime is actually Mirror Spock, he just shaved his beard and had an enlightenment period over the years!"

Spock Prime is from that which we know to be the territory of The Original Series.

Occam's Razor?

Actually, author's intent. Regardless of what appears onscreen I still go with what the authors intended. It may not be clear but it is clear enough for me.

Also, regardless of which universe, it does nothing to diminish my enjoyment of the films.

Aye. Doesn't diminish my enjoyment either.

 

[Campe]

The author's intent is quite clear! I don't understand what you could possibly say that wouldn't be a technobabblish answer and take 95% of the audience out of the film. "Yes, the elder Spock's quantum stamp comes from parallel universe 3451251, which is very close to our Spock's. In fact, almost identical."

Sometimes less is more!

 

[FormerLurker]

I would say that in this case, Author's Intent is, in fact, Occam's Razor.

 

[Mudd]

Well, it's settled: old Spock is TOS Spock.

 

[eyeresist]

It's a fine theory, but not supported by in-universe evidence. Old Spock is explicitly established in the movie as being TOS Spock.

No such explicit or definitive evidence exists on screen and in-universe.

Old Spock thinks he is in the same universe. Nothing in the movie contradicts him.


We need an emoticon of a smiley-face putting a bullet in its head.

 

[Tarek71]

It's a fine theory, but not supported by in-universe evidence. Old Spock is explicitly established in the movie as being TOS Spock.

No such explicit or definitive evidence exists on screen and in-universe.

Old Spock thinks he is in the same universe. Nothing in the movie contradicts him.

Except he arrives in a different quantum reality/universe. He arrives in Nu2258, not Prime 2258. One timeline that actually is noticeably different. Of course, he hasn't had alot of time to see the differences. He's immediately captured, then he's alone. So maybe at first, he does think he is in the same one. And only then with NuKirk begins to see that things are different in this universe.

Of course, Worf in Parallels thought he was in the same universe at first. Alot would be the same among any number of an infinite number of parallel, quantum, alternate timelines.

 

[BillJ]

Of course, Worf in Parallels thought he was in the same universe at first. Alot would be the same among any number of an infinite number of parallel, quantum, alternate timelines.

Technically, he was. They were just splits of his original timeline.

Parallel and divergent timelines are two distinct things in the Trek world.

 

[fireproof78]

Of course, Worf in Parallels thought he was in the same universe at first. Alot would be the same among any number of an infinite number of parallel, quantum, alternate timelines.

Technically, he was. They were just splits of his original timeline.

Parallel and divergent timelines are two distinct things in the Trek world.

Personally, I'm more curious as to how the Mirror Universe came about. Can we see a Mirror Universe Nu-Trek with MACOs and an investigation by Temporal Investigations to correct everything?

Also, revisit the ending of the Temporal Cold War.

 

[Tarek71]

Of course, Worf in Parallels thought he was in the same universe at first. Alot would be the same among any number of an infinite number of parallel, quantum, alternate timelines.

Technically, he was. They were just splits of his original timeline.

Parallel and divergent timelines are two distinct things in the Trek world.

He was the one in the shuttle, so he was the one in "quantum flux". But the universes were not the same quantum realities. In one, the Borg had overrun the Federation, in others Captain Riker commanded because Picard had died years earlier, etc. He didn't create them by interacting with the quantum fissure or necessarily due to any difference in choices or actions by Worf. He started shifting between already existing parallel quantum realities/universes/timelines.

There is some inconsistency in terminology in ST about this. In the various mirror universe episodes it is called a "parallel universe", an "alternate reality" and an "alternate universe".

Is the MU a different "quantum reality" that branched from the "prime" universe? We're they always separate universes?