Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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Having gotten into Doctor Who since these debates began six years ago, I made this meme and I think it's safe to say it applies to Trek just as well...
Having gotten into Doctor Who since these debates began six years ago, I made this meme and I think it's safe to say it applies to Trek just as well...
I approve....
IIRC there were hundreds of thousands of Enterprises appearing. And no reason to categorize them as any different than "mirror" or "nu" universes. It makes no difference what JJ says in an interview. In-universe, we don't know if the Nu universe is an already existing parallel universe, or what universe elder Spock comes from.
You don't recall correctly. Showing "hundreds of thousands of Enterprises" would have bankrupted the production and would have been impractical in any event.
There may have been a throw-away line about the number of Enterprises, but only a few dozen at most were shown.
The characters onscreen explain it as an alternate universe rather than a mirror or parallel universe. There is nothing in-universe that establishes the existence of more than two of these. So you're wrong there, too.
The Mirror Universe is a parallel universe. In Star Trek now that's different from an alternate universe.
According to the people who made up nuTrek, there's one universe up to the moment that Nero shows up and attacks the Kelvin at the beginning of Trek 2009. At that point the TOS universe splits, amoeba-like, into one that will continue along the lines of oldTrek and the other that will star Christopher Pine.
There's no suggestion in-universe that parallel universes are ever created from a single "root" - they go along being, you know, parallel from creation onward, with some events occurring in the same way in each and some being different.
Both of which are somehow distinct from what occurs in "Yesterday's Enterprise," BTW - there it's one universe looping back on itself.
Is any of this logical in a linear way? Not in the slightest.
Ha! Yes. But there in lay the issue, we don't know in-universe that the NuVerse isnt a previously existing parallel universe, or even what universe elder Spock comes from.
There is no issue.
It's not a parallel universe at all. The alternate universe concept is explained clearly by characters in the movie itself. So "in-universe," we know.
You don't recall correctly. Showing "hundreds of thousands of Enterprises" would have bankrupted the production and would have been impractical in any event.
There may have been a throw-away line about the number of Enterprises, but only a few dozen at most were shown.
The characters onscreen explain it as an alternate universe rather than a mirror or parallel universe. There is nothing in-universe that establishes the existence of more than two of these. So you're wrong there, too.
You say "throwaway" line, but there is no reason to throw it away. How many ships did the sensors pick up? And no, they don't explain it's alternate but not parallel. No such discussion occurs. The crew seems to think that their own personal destinies were changed by the events of 2233 and afterwards, but that would be true of either a parallel universe or the prime universe.
You're mistaken. It's stated explicitly in-universe as alternate based on the Nero incident twenty years before.
There is no issue.
It's not a parallel universe at all. The alternate universe concept is explained clearly by characters in the movie itself. So "in-universe," we know.
No such discussion occurs. The characters determined that the "Prime" timeline is still intact and unchanged by events, but rather an alternate universe popped into existence? Lol.
When did that happen?
Nope. No such thing happens. Yes, they think there own destinies may now have been forever changed, but that would be true of a parallel universe that the Narada popped into. They certainly don't discuss how the origin universe of Spock and the Narada is unchanged by the events of 2233.
At the risk of being dragged back into this silly, rather pointless discussion, I will repeat that there would be no point in having Spock Prime from TOS travel back in time to create this new alternate universe if it was already an alternate universe. They could have just done a straight reboot if that were the case. Furthermore, there'd be no point in having Leonard Nimoy in the film if he wasn't going to play the same Spock we all know and love from TOS. If you want to believe that it wasn't explicitly stated "in-universe," fine, But that's probably because the writers felt that they didn't have to spoon-feed the audience something that was pretty much common sense. At least to everyone except you.
But again, seeing as how you've already made up your mind no matter what anyone tells you (or you're just being deliberately stubborn, which is the more likely scenario), there doesn't seem to be a point to furthering this discussion.
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You're wrong.
In Star Trek when they mean "parallel universe" they say "parallel universe." They always have. "Alternate reality" does not mean "altered reality." There's absolutely no ambiguity about it. As Spock says, "precisely."
There's only one black prior to Nero's arrival, not two.
The alternate universe premise - entirely different from the so-called "mirror" or "parallel universe" premise - is made explicit and clear in the first nuTrek movie.
Since we've never seen another alternate universe then, in-universe, only two are known to exist.
The alternate universe premise - entirely different from the so-called "mirror" or "parallel universe" premise - is made explicit and clear in the first nuTrek movie.
Since we've never seen another alternate universe then, in-universe, only two are known to exist.
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There's only one black prior to Nero's arrival, not two.
The alternate universe premise - entirely different from the so-called "mirror" or "parallel universe" premise - is made explicit and clear in the first nuTrek movie.
Since we've never seen another alternate universe then, in-universe, only two are known to exist.
Twin black lines are shown only because I was using MSPaint, and not Photoshop this time. (Plus I was half-asleep when I drafted this.)
Nice re-edit by the way! Thank you!
Awww.... but you took out the Eat at Joe's gag! One point deducted from otherwise perfection! (Ok...two point for Nero's fate.)
Which would be just as true of a parallel universe. Any universe that Nero entered, he would "alter". Once he starts blowing ships up and killing people in whatever universe he enters, someone in that universe could say what Spock says here. He says "altered".
Yes, but that would be true of any universe he entered and began "altering".
You're wrong.
In Star Trek when they mean "parallel universe" they say "parallel universe." They always have. "Alternate reality" does not mean "altered reality." There's absolutely no ambiguity about it. As Spock says, "precisely."
Hahaha! The problem of course is that "altered" is what Nero did and what Nu Spock says he did. Of course he altered events by his entry into this universe. So in terms of what Nero "knows" about the future, Spock rightly says that Nero has been altering the flow of events even since he arrived in their universe.
Nero could not therefore know the future. Thats what was what they were talking about. No discussion of an unchanged "prime" timeline occurs. Only that Nero has altered the flow of events since his arrival. Which is exactly what someone in an already existing parallel universe would say.
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