Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?

[Tarek71]

Author intent is never in-universe.

And you're welcome to keep thinking that. Me, I'll let common sense dictate my beliefs, and will go on thinking that Prime Spock is the same guy as TOS Spock, since there's no reason for him not to be, and every reason for him to be.

JJ Abrams, if he exists at all in-universe, is a 21st century filmmaker who is long dead and has nothing to do with the events taking place. But maybe you're right! Maybe instead of asking elder Spock about Khan, young Spock should have had JJ Abrams, the long dead filmmaker on screen to explain Khan. LOL!

You're right! That makes alot of sense!

 

[Dukhat]

You're right! That makes alot of sense!

Well, one of us has to. And now that I'm pretty much convinced you're not being serious here, I will bow out of this pointless discussion.

 

[Tarek71]

In universe is based on what the characters see, not what the audience sees. For things that can't be answered through "story", author intent and comments trumps audience speculation, wishful thinking and head canon. There for, Spock is the Spock from the Prime Universe and if he think Kirk looks like the Kirk from the Prime Universe, then it's a "fact".

We don't have any basis for thinking they see anything differently then we do. All we know is that he recognized Kirk and Scotty. He could be from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like.

Author intent is never in-universe. On screen, we can't tell where elder Spock is from.

Which is where author intent comes into play. They are creating this universe, not the audience. In the words of Mel Brooks "they outrank you".

Other than the fact he's played by Leonard Nimoy, I'm not sure how you work in what universe he's from into the script.

It never comes into play. They aren't in-universe. And in-universe this elder Spock could be from any one of millions of parallel universes. JJ Abrams, in-universe, is a filmmaker whose been dead for hundreds of years. If he existed at all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We don't have any basis for thinking they see anything differently then we do. All we know is that he recognized Kirk and Scotty. He could be from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like.

Author intent is never in-universe. On screen, we can't tell where elder Spock is from.

Which is where author intent comes into play. They are creating this universe, not the audience. In the words of Mel Brooks "they outrank you".

Other than the fact he's played by Leonard Nimoy, I'm not sure how you work in what universe he's from into the script.

It never comes into play. They aren't in-universe. And in-universe this elder Spock could be from any one of millions of parallel universes. JJ Abrams, in-universe, is a filmmaker whose been dead for hundreds of years. If he existed at all.

In-universe, JJ Abrams is God, a position formerly held by Gene Roddenberry, Harve Bennett and Rick Berman. That's why he outranks you.

 

[Tarek71]

Of

Which is where author intent comes into play. They are creating this universe, not the audience. In the words of Mel Brooks "they outrank you".

Other than the fact he's played by Leonard Nimoy, I'm not sure how you work in what universe he's from into the script.

It never comes into play. They aren't in-universe. And in-universe this elder Spock could be from any one of millions of parallel universes. JJ Abrams, in-universe, is a filmmaker whose been dead for hundreds of years. If he existed at all.

In-universe, JJ Abrams is God, a position formerly held by Gene Roddenberry, Harve Bennett and Rick Berman. That's why he outranks you.

No, in-universe, its the 23rd century, and JJ Abrams is long gone. There is no show runner or executive producer. Lol. That's all from the production POV.

 

[BillJ]

Author intent is never in-universe.

And you're welcome to keep thinking that. Me, I'll let common sense dictate my beliefs, and will go on thinking that Prime Spock is the same guy as TOS Spock, since there's no reason for him not to be, and every reason for him to be.

+1

 

[FormerLurker]

Here's a nice "evolution of Superman" graphic, which doesn't even include the myriad on-screen incarnations. They're still all the same guy.

Actually, it includes all of them, from Kirk Alyn to George Reeves, to Christopher Reeve to Dean Cain, to Brandon Routh, except for the Broadway play, the various live-action Superboys, and Henry Cavill. Look for the ones with wrinkled fabric at the joints, and the known hairdos of the actors in the role. Looking again, they even have the actor that was attending the 1939 World's Fair.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Of

It never comes into play. They aren't in-universe. And in-universe this elder Spock could be from any one of millions of parallel universes. JJ Abrams, in-universe, is a filmmaker whose been dead for hundreds of years. If he existed at all.

In-universe, JJ Abrams is God, a position formerly held by Gene Roddenberry, Harve Bennett and Rick Berman. That's why he outranks you.

No, in-universe, its the 23rd century, and JJ Abrams is long gone. There is no show runner or executive producer. Lol. That's all from the production POV.

You don't understand. In Universe, JJ is the current God, in a literal sense. He decides what these people do, say and perceive. ( There is no free will in Universe, everyone is controlled by higher powers)

 

[Tarek71]

Of

In-universe, JJ Abrams is God, a position formerly held by Gene Roddenberry, Harve Bennett and Rick Berman. That's why he outranks you.

No, in-universe, its the 23rd century, and JJ Abrams is long gone. There is no show runner or executive producer. Lol. That's all from the production POV.

You don't understand. In Universe, JJ is the current God, in a literal sense. He decides what these people do, say and perceive. ( There is no free will in Universe, everyone is controlled by higher powers)

No, in-universe it's the 23rd century on board the real starship Enterprise. And JJ has no in-universe role whatsoever. He's a 21st century filmmaker with no connection to anything that's happening. These being movies and TV shows is not an "in-universe" fact. That's from the production POV.

 

[Mudd]

Other than the fact he's played by Leonard Nimoy, I'm not sure how you work in what universe he's from into the script.

He's played by Leonard Nimoy - he's Spock from TOS, I recognize him. So I know where he's from.

There is no doubt that JJ intends them to be the same characters, but there are no doubt millions of Spocks from millions of different parallel universes.

No - there are only two alternate (not parallel) universes, because that's all that we've been told about. If they ever establish a third one, then there will be a third one.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Of

No, in-universe, its the 23rd century, and JJ Abrams is long gone. There is no show runner or executive producer. Lol. That's all from the production POV.

You don't understand. In Universe, JJ is the current God, in a literal sense. He decides what these people do, say and perceive. ( There is no free will in Universe, everyone is controlled by higher powers)

No, in-universe it's the 23rd century on board the real starship Enterprise. And JJ has no in-universe role whatsoever. He's a 21st century filmmaker with no connection to anything that's happening. These being movies and TV shows is not an "in-universe" fact. That's from the production POV.

As far as I know there is no 21st century filmmaker called "JJ Abrams" in-universe. No character has mentioned him. Its speculation on your part that there is.

 

[Trekkin]

I vote TWOK is a parallel universe to TOS. That's why Khan's skin changed colour, why his crew is now a bunch of blond/e 20-year-olds, why he's seen Chekov before, and why he's now referred to as a product of genetic engineering. And of course, he claims Kirk left him to die, which we know TOS Kirk never did.

Whats that? Khan isn't meant to be telling the truth? And Chekov could have met him off screen? Too bad, what's on screen trumps it. I mean it's not like he ever says his wife is McGivers, so it could have been Mirror Uhura for all we know.

Or, you know - the people making the series just retconned stuff. Kinda like how they changed the year it's set in, Starfleet's name, and why we didn't see many adventures involving James R Kirk. Or maybe that all happened in another universe! (dum dum dum)

 

[Tarek71]

You don't understand. In Universe, JJ is the current God, in a literal sense. He decides what these people do, say and perceive. ( There is no free will in Universe, everyone is controlled by higher powers)

No, in-universe it's the 23rd century on board the real starship Enterprise. And JJ has no in-universe role whatsoever. He's a 21st century filmmaker with no connection to anything that's happening. These being movies and TV shows is not an "in-universe" fact. That's from the production POV.

As far as I know there is no 21st century filmmaker called "JJ Abrams" in-universe. No character has mentioned him. Its speculation on your part that there is.

Exactly. I even said that more than once "if he exists at all" in-universe. He may not.

 

[Tarek71]

I vote TWOK is a parallel universe to TOS. That's why Khan's skin changed colour, why his crew is now a bunch of blond/e 20-year-olds, why he's seen Chekov before, and why he's now referred to as a product of genetic engineering. And of course, he claims Kirk left him to die, which we know TOS Kirk never did.

Whats that? Khan isn't meant to be telling the truth? And Chekov could have met him off screen? Too bad, what's on screen trumps it. I mean it's not like he ever says his wife is McGivers, so it could have been Mirror Uhura for all we know.

Or, you know - the people making the series just retconned stuff. Kinda like how they changed the year it's set in, Starfleet's name, and why we didn't see many adventures involving James R Kirk. Or maybe that all happened in another universe! (dum dum dum)

Exactly!

 

[Tarek71]

Other than the fact he's played by Leonard Nimoy, I'm not sure how you work in what universe he's from into the script.

He's played by Leonard Nimoy - he's Spock from TOS, I recognize him. So I know where he's from.

There are no doubt millions of parallel (yes parallel) universes where that's what Spock looks like.

No - there are only two alternate (not parallel) universes, because that's all that we've been told about. If they ever establish a third one, then there will be a third one.

Oh no, millions. We got to see hundreds of thousands of Enterprises, and multiple versions of Worf, if you recall.

 

[Trekkin]

You know what? I'm bowing out. What more is there to say?

EDIT: Actually there is something - you've just admitted that there's basically no amount of on-screen 'proof' that could 'prove' a sequal takes place in the same 'universe' as its predessor. TWOK actually does meet your criteria of what 09 could have done to establish Spock Prime as the TOS Spock. Yet you're still willing to call the TWOK writers 'wrong' for declaring it a direct sequel to TOS, all because I listed some continuity gaffs or purposeful changes.

Which is why there's really no more point to this conversation.

 

[Tarek71]

You know what? I'm bowing out. What more is there to say?

EDIT: Actually there is something - you've just admitted that there's basically no amount of on-screen 'proof' that could 'prove' a sequal takes place in the same 'universe' as its predessor. TWOK actually does meet your criteria of what 09 could have done to establish Spock Prime as the TOS Spock. Yet you're still willing to call the TWOK writers 'wrong' for declaring it a direct sequel to TOS, all because I listed some continuity gaffs or purposeful changes.

Which is why there's really no more point to this conversation.

I gave a wink with that smilie, Hela. I was merely commending your spirit in searching for discontinuities that might indeed be suggestive of changes to the timeline.

For instance, it is indeed true that WW3 could not have happened in the 1990s and the 2050s. Maybe it was two different wars? Or maybe the timeline has been changed? Or maybe it's a parallel universe? I'm open to those possibilities.

 

[Mudd]

Oh no, millions. We got to see hundreds of thousands of Enterprises, and multiple versions of Worf, if you recall.

Those were parallel universes, and in oldTrek. You actually only got to see a couple of dozen at most, BTW.

We've seen exactly two alternate universes in the new movies. Infer whatever you may, there's no onscreen evidence of more.

 

[Melakon]

Neither of those Spocks had a beard, so there's at least three alternate universes. Unless one of them shaved.

 

[Mudd]

The Mirror Universe is a parallel universe. In Star Trek now that's different from an alternate universe.

According to the people who made up nuTrek, there's one universe up to the moment that Nero shows up and attacks the Kelvin at the beginning of Trek 2009. At that point the TOS universe splits, amoeba-like, into one that will continue along the lines of oldTrek and the other that will star Christopher Pine.

There's no suggestion in-universe that parallel universes are ever created from a single "root" - they go along being, you know, parallel from creation onward, with some events occurring in the same way in each and some being different.

Both of which are somehow distinct from what occurs in "Yesterday's Enterprise," BTW - there it's one universe looping back on itself.

Is any of this logical in a linear way? Not in the slightest.