Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?

[Tarek71]

Different actors, purpose of the film, etc are interesting observations from the production POV, but are not in universe. The clear, unmistakable visual evidence is that Kirk, Scotty, Sulu, etc look very physically different than they do in the so-called "Prime" universe. The fact that the elder Spock immediately recognizes them indicates that this Spock comes from a universe where that is what they look like and have always looked like.

We don't know what universe this elder Spock comes from. Nothing in-universe definitively establishes it. But apparently it's not the "prime" universe.

 

[BillJ]

Different actors, purpose of the film, etc are interesting observations from the production POV, but are not in universe. The clear, unmistakable visual evidence is that Kirk, Scotty, Sulu, etc look very physically different than they do in the so-called "Prime" universe. The fact that the elder Spock immediately recognizes them indicates that this Spock comes from a universe where that is what they look like and have always looked like.

We don't know what universe this elder Spock comes from. Nothing in-universe definitively establishes it. But apparently it's not the "prime" universe.

Okay. Whatever you say.

 

[Dukhat]

The clear, unmistakable visual evidence is that Kirk, Scotty, Sulu, etc look very physically different than they do in the so-called "Prime" universe. The fact that the elder Spock immediately recognizes them indicates that this Spock comes from a universe where that is what they look like and have always looked like.

No, it means that Prime Spock recognizes nuKirk because both Prime Kirk and nuKirk look the same.

We don't know what universe this elder Spock comes from.

Yes we do. I explained it quite clearly in my last post. That you want to ignore what I wrote implies that you're either being facetious or stubborn. If you're being facetious, then the joke's on me. If you're being stubborn, then there's little point in continuing this conversation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The bottom line is this: The filmmakers - writers, producers, director, the lot - have all said that Spock Prime is from the same Trekverse we know, therefore he must be. Their intent must be respected. If they say he is, then he is. No one would know better than they, after all.

"Not in-universe"? That effectively means nothing. Whatever is "in-universe" is what the people making the film SAY is in it.

 

[Tarek71]

No, it means that Prime Spock recognizes nuKirk because both Prime Kirk and nuKirk look the same.

Since they self evidently do not look the same at all, we know that is wrong.

Yes we do. I explained it quite clearly in my last post. That you want to ignore what I wrote implies that you're either being facetious or stubborn. If you're being facetious, then the joke's on me. If you're being stubborn, then there's little point in continuing this conversation.

Nothing was "ignored". I answered all that. Those are not in-universe reasons. Actors changing, JJ's purpose in having Nimoy, etc.

 

[Tarek71]

The bottom line is this: The filmmakers - writers, producers, director, the lot - have all said that Spock Prime is from the same Trekverse we know, therefore he must be. Their intent must be respected. If they say he is, then he is. No one would know better than they, after all.

"Not in-universe"? That effectively means nothing. Whatever is "in-universe" is what the people making the film SAY is in it.

No, those are from a production POV.

 

[Tarek71]

Different actors, purpose of the film, etc are interesting observations from the production POV, but are not in universe. The clear, unmistakable visual evidence is that Kirk, Scotty, Sulu, etc look very physically different than they do in the so-called "Prime" universe. The fact that the elder Spock immediately recognizes them indicates that this Spock comes from a universe where that is what they look like and have always looked like.

We don't know what universe this elder Spock comes from. Nothing in-universe definitively establishes it. But apparently it's not the "prime" universe.

Okay. Whatever you say. <------

It's not what I say Bill. It's what the screen evidence says.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The bottom line is this: The filmmakers - writers, producers, director, the lot - have all said that Spock Prime is from the same Trekverse we know, therefore he must be. Their intent must be respected. If they say he is, then he is. No one would know better than they, after all.

"Not in-universe"? That effectively means nothing. Whatever is "in-universe" is what the people making the film SAY is in it.

No, those are from a production POV.

Nope
Word of God.

 

[fireproof78]

Different actors, purpose of the film, etc are interesting observations from the production POV, but are not in universe. The clear, unmistakable visual evidence is that Kirk, Scotty, Sulu, etc look very physically different than they do in the so-called "Prime" universe. The fact that the elder Spock immediately recognizes them indicates that this Spock comes from a universe where that is what they look like and have always looked like.

We don't know what universe this elder Spock comes from. Nothing in-universe definitively establishes it. But apparently it's not the "prime" universe.

Okay. Whatever you say. <------

It's not what I say Bill. It's what the screen evidence says.

The on-screen evidence is inconclusive, because we did not see Prime Kirk, Prime McCoy or Prime Uhura as their younger selves. In addition, we don't know how people in universe see these characters, or how they physically look to them.

In universe explanations assume facts not in evidence as you cannot see those characters from the character's POV.

 

[Dukhat]

Since they self evidently do not look the same at all, we know that is wrong.

Apparently you can't seem to grasp the simple concept of a character being played by a different actor. "In-universe," that character is the same no matter what they look like to us. Two different actors played the role of Tom Paris's father, Admiral Owen Paris. Two different actors played the role of Margaret Houlihan's fiancee/husband Donald Penobscott in M*A*S*H. Three different actresses played Jonathan Frakes' character's wife in North and South. In all these instances "in-universe," they were all the same person.

Nothing was "ignored". I answered all that. Those are not in-universe reasons. Actors changing, JJ's purpose in having Nimoy, etc.

See above.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I don't get the argument people are having here. James Bond is the same guy but has been played by at least 5 different looking men and even his height changes ....

Yet we know he's supposed to be the same guy.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't get the argument people are having here. James Bond is the same guy but has been played by at least 5 different looking men and even his height changes ....

Yet we know he's supposed to be the same guy.

It's really only one person arguing, and they're probably being deliberately obtuse. But that is also just as good an example as the ones I wrote.

 

[Trekkin]

I think the way comic books change and evolve would blow some people's minds.

I mean, look at something like Sandman. Even with a limited run and some of the changes to the characters being explained in universe, there's still things that inexplicably didn't look the same two issues in a row.

That's not even touching the appearances from non-Sandman characters like Constantine, Superman, Scarecrow, Dr Destiny, Martian Manhunter etc and how different they were compared to what they're like in their usual fare. Yet most fans of that series just acknowledge that 'yes those are the characters that Gaiman intended them to be' and the actual reason for the change is merely the artists involved.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Here's a nice "evolution of Superman" graphic, which doesn't even include the myriad on-screen incarnations. They're still all the same guy.

 

[Tarek71]

Since they self evidently do not look the same at all, we know that is wrong.

Apparently you can't seem to grasp the simple concept of a character being played by a different actor. "In-universe," that character is the same no matter what they look like to us. Two different actors played the role of Tom Paris's father, Admiral Owen Paris. Two different actors played the role of Margaret Houlihan's fiancee/husband Donald Penobscott in M*A*S*H. Three different actresses played Jonathan Frakes' character's wife in North and South. In all these instances "in-universe," they were all the same person.

Nothing was "ignored". I answered all that. Those are not in-universe reasons. Actors changing, JJ's purpose in having Nimoy, etc.

See above.

I saw it the first time. Those are not in universe reasons, those are from a production POV. There is no doubt that JJ intends them to be the same characters, but there are no doubt millions of Spocks from millions of different parallel universes. They are all Spock, in a manner of speaking.

In universe, there is nothing definitive about which universe elder Spock comes from. It makes no difference what JJ intends. That's not in universe. And it's not suspension of disbelief about casting changes.

We can't say for sure what universe elder Spock comes from. And nothing on screen definitely establishes that this was the same universe until 2233. It could have been an already existing parallel universe.

Elder Spock doesn't even seem to know what year it as he expects a very young Kirk in 2258 to already be Captain. Maybe he comes from a universe where Kirk was Captain at 25 and looks the way he does here. IDK. It seemed that he was captured almost immediately upon coming true to the 23rd century. Doesn't look like he had alot of time to determine where and when he was.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In universe is based on what the characters see, not what the audience sees. For things that can't be answered through "story", author intent and comments trumps audience speculation, wishful thinking and head canon. There for, Spock is the Spock from the Prime Universe and if he think Kirk looks like the Kirk from the Prime Universe, then it's a "fact".

 

[Tarek71]

I don't get the argument people are having here. James Bond is the same guy but has been played by at least 5 different looking men and even his height changes ....

Yet we know he's supposed to be the same guy.

Bond is like comic characters. The miracle of slow aging. If they did have Craig enter a temporal rift and travel to the 1960s and meets a Bond who looks like Sean Connery in his 30s then the jig is up. Can't be the same guy. He not only looks completely different, but he ought to have aged decades by 2015.

Dr Who had a solution to that with regeneration, but with Bond, that doesn't work. They are all different versions of the same character, of the same man. You might as well say these are different timelines. Craig is too young to have been Bond in the 60s or served during the Cold War, even though a guy named "James Bond" certainly did.

It can't be canon that he served in the Cold War and canon that Craig, in 2015 is that same man. Couldn't happen. Unless you think Craig is playing an 80 yo character who just looks young to we the viewers. But that in universe he looks 80 to everyone else.

 

[Tarek71]

In universe is based on what the characters see, not what the audience sees. For things that can't be answered through "story", author intent and comments trumps audience speculation, wishful thinking and head canon. There for, Spock is the Spock from the Prime Universe and if he think Kirk looks like the Kirk from the Prime Universe, then it's a "fact".

We don't have any basis for thinking they see anything differently then we do. All we know is that he recognized Kirk and Scotty. He could be from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like.

Author intent is never in-universe. On screen, we can't tell where elder Spock is from.

 

[Dukhat]

Author intent is never in-universe.

And you're welcome to keep thinking that. Me, I'll let common sense dictate my beliefs, and will go on thinking that Prime Spock is the same guy as TOS Spock, since there's no reason for him not to be, and every reason for him to be.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In universe is based on what the characters see, not what the audience sees. For things that can't be answered through "story", author intent and comments trumps audience speculation, wishful thinking and head canon. There for, Spock is the Spock from the Prime Universe and if he think Kirk looks like the Kirk from the Prime Universe, then it's a "fact".

We don't have any basis for thinking they see anything differently then we do. All we know is that he recognized Kirk and Scotty. He could be from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like.

Author intent is never in-universe. On screen, we can't tell where elder Spock is from.

Which is where author intent comes into play. They are creating this universe, not the audience. In the words of Mel Brooks "they outrank you".

Other than the fact he's played by Leonard Nimoy, I'm not sure how you work in what universe he's from into the script.