Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?

[fireproof78]

Well, a young Picard was supposed to look like both Tom Hardy (shaved head and all) and Marcus Nash (full head of hair).

On screen, Abrams films treat the younger actors as appearing liking the TOS crew when they were younger. Prime Spock recognizes Kirk and Scotty without any prompting or people telling him who is who.

I don't think it is more complicated than that.

 

[Tarek71]

In-universe, and though their back stories may differ between versions of the setting, Chris Pine's Kirk looks just like William Shatner's, Bruce Greenwood's Pike is indistinguishable from Jeffrey Hunter's, and so on. Bones, Scotty, Uhura... they're all the same characters. Even Chekov's hair? The same.

In universe, they look completely different. Elder Spock is apparently from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like, so there would therefore be no reason for him to think it's strange that Kirk and Scotty look the way they do.

There is nothing in-universe that establishes that elder Spock comes from the same universe as the Spock seen in TOS, TOS Movies, TNG, etc. No where is this ever said or established on screen. Of course JJ intends that, but the visual on screen evidence shows that this is a different Spock.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In-universe, and though their back stories may differ between versions of the setting, Chris Pine's Kirk looks just like William Shatner's, Bruce Greenwood's Pike is indistinguishable from Jeffrey Hunter's, and so on. Bones, Scotty, Uhura... they're all the same characters. Even Chekov's hair? The same.

In universe, they look completely different. Elder Spock is apparently from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like, so there would therefore be no reason for him to think it's strange that Kirk and Scotty look the way they do.

There is nothing in-universe that establishes that elder Spock comes from the same universe as the Spock seen in TOS, TOS Movies, TNG, etc. No where is this ever said or established on screen. Of course JJ intends that, but the visual on screen evidence shows that this is a different Spock.

That's out-universe thinking.

 

[Tarek71]

But not to each other, as indicated by Spock Prime recognizing the alternate timeline James T. Kirk.

The only in universe explanation is that elder Spock comes from a universe where that is what Kirk and Scott look like. Different actors is an explanation from the production, real world perspective. In universe these people are visually very different.

Only? Nah.

Yep! Only one.

It would be interesting to see where the elder Spock is from. It's clearly not the Spock seen in TOS/Movies/TNG. This is a different Spock.

 

[Tarek71]

In-universe, and though their back stories may differ between versions of the setting, Chris Pine's Kirk looks just like William Shatner's, Bruce Greenwood's Pike is indistinguishable from Jeffrey Hunter's, and so on. Bones, Scotty, Uhura... they're all the same characters. Even Chekov's hair? The same.

In universe, they look completely different. Elder Spock is apparently from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like, so there would therefore be no reason for him to think it's strange that Kirk and Scotty look the way they do.

There is nothing in-universe that establishes that elder Spock comes from the same universe as the Spock seen in TOS, TOS Movies, TNG, etc. No where is this ever said or established on screen. Of course JJ intends that, but the visual on screen evidence shows that this is a different Spock.

That's out-universe thinking.

Nope. In universe. From the production POV, JJ intends that they are the same. But nothing in universe establishes that. On the contrary, he appears to be from a universe where Kirk and Scotty look very different from the Kirk and Scotty of the so-called "prime" timeline.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The only in universe explanation is that elder Spock comes from a universe where that is what Kirk and Scott look like. Different actors is an explanation from the production, real world perspective. In universe these people are visually very different.

Only? Nah.

Yep! Only one.

It would be interesting to see where the elder Spock is from. It's clearly not the Spock seen in TOS/Movies/TNG. This is a different Spock.

Nope. He's the TOS/Movies/TNG Spock. Word of God.

In universe, they look completely different. Elder Spock is apparently from a universe where that's what Kirk and Scotty look like, so there would therefore be no reason for him to think it's strange that Kirk and Scotty look the way they do.

There is nothing in-universe that establishes that elder Spock comes from the same universe as the Spock seen in TOS, TOS Movies, TNG, etc. No where is this ever said or established on screen. Of course JJ intends that, but the visual on screen evidence shows that this is a different Spock.

That's out-universe thinking.

Nope. In universe. From the production POV, JJ intends that they are the same. But nothing in universe establishes that. On the contrary, he appears to be from a universe where Kirk and Scotty look very different from the Kirk and Scotty of the so-called "prime" timeline.

You're from out of the universe. Your perceptions don't count. Only the characters in universe perceptions and comments count. Just as no one in STIII noticed Saavik looked different. Because in-universe she is the same person.

 

[Tarek71]

On screen, Abrams films treat the younger actors as appearing liking the TOS crew when they were younger. Prime Spock recognizes Kirk and Scotty without any prompting or people telling him who is who.

I don't think it is more complicated than that.

No doubt Abrams intends that. But nothing in universe establishes that elder Spock and "prime" timeline Spock are from the same universe. If anything it seems clear that this elder Spock comes from a universe where Kirk, Scott and others look nothing like the "prime" versions.

 

[fireproof78]

Only? Nah.

Yep! Only one.

It would be interesting to see where the elder Spock is from. It's clearly not the Spock seen in TOS/Movies/TNG. This is a different Spock.

Nope. He's the TOS/Movies/TNG Spock. Word of God.

That's out-universe thinking.

Nope. In universe. From the production POV, JJ intends that they are the same. But nothing in universe establishes that. On the contrary, he appears to be from a universe where Kirk and Scotty look very different from the Kirk and Scotty of the so-called "prime" timeline.

You're from out of the universe. Your perceptions don't count. Only the characters in universe perceptions and comments count. Just as no one in STIII noticed Saavik looked different. Because in-universe she is the same person.

Exactly. It has to be based upon the character's reactions to other characters, not their physical appearance. If no one is commenting on Saavik's appearance and treats her as the same person (i.e. David) then there is no reason to question that she is, in fact, the same character.

As for Spock's origin, as much as I don't like the scene in ID, older Spock discusses their battle with Khan and the cost of that victory.

Obviously, this is a reference to the loss of McGivers

On screen, Abrams films treat the younger actors as appearing liking the TOS crew when they were younger. Prime Spock recognizes Kirk and Scotty without any prompting or people telling him who is who.

I don't think it is more complicated than that.

No doubt Abrams intends that. But nothing in universe establishes that elder Spock and "prime" timeline Spock are from the same universe. If anything it seems clear that this elder Spock comes from a universe where Kirk, Scott and others look nothing like the "prime" versions.

Then I go with authorial intent at the time of the film's creation. Sorry, if a film isn't a clear, I may get annoyed with the production team, but I'm not going to reject their explanations out of hand, just because of lack of on screen evidence.

Though, I'm also inclined for a simple explanation, based upon my own viewing of the film that elder Spock is the same Spock that I have seen before.

 

[eyeresist]

No doubt Abrams intends that. But nothing in universe establishes that elder Spock and "prime" timeline Spock are from the same universe. If anything it seems clear that this elder Spock comes from a universe where Kirk, Scott and others look nothing like the "prime" versions.

In ST09, OldSpock says:

[to NuKirk] "I have been, and always shall be, your friend."
[to NuKirk] "I am Spock."
[to NuKirk] "It is remarkably pleasing to see you again, old friend."
[to NuKirk] "That is where I'm from, Jim. The future."
[to NuKirk] "You often spoke of him [Kirk's father] as being your inspiration for joining Starfleet."
[to NuScott] "You are Montgomery Scott."
[to NuScott] "You are, in fact, the Mister Scott who postulated the theory of transwarp beaming."
[to NuSpock] "I am not our father."
[to NuSpock] "And yet, you can be in two places at once."

All of which indicates that as far as Spock is concerned he is in the same universe, talking to younger versions of himself and others he knew. You can put your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la-I'm-not-listening, but the evidence is there.

I wonder what the Abrams timeline's version of the Department of Temporal Investigations would have to say about all this.

Nothing, they were abolished as part of a "small government" initiative. That's how this whole mess happened.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Did anyone see the HISHE video which totally screws JJ Trek over.

Now that they have transwarp beaming they have no need for starships and Khan blood has made everyone immortal creating overpopulation..


[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8[/yt]

 

[BillJ]

Did anyone see the HISHE video which totally screws JJ Trek over.

Now that they have transwarp beaming they have no need for starships and Khan blood has made everyone immortal creating overpopulation..

TNG had transwarp beaming ("Bloodlines") and the transporter should've ended medical science as we know it in the 24th century ("Unnatural Selection"). Yet the universe continued to chug along.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I thought it was an affectionate parody, far from "totally screwing JJ Trek over"

On screen, Abrams films treat the younger actors as appearing liking the TOS crew when they were younger. Prime Spock recognizes Kirk and Scotty without any prompting or people telling him who is who.

I don't think it is more complicated than that.

No doubt Abrams intends that. But nothing in universe establishes that elder Spock and "prime" timeline Spock are from the same universe. If anything it seems clear that this elder Spock comes from a universe where Kirk, Scott and others look nothing like the "prime" versions.

How do you deal with other recastings? Ziyal, Saavik, Cochrane - the latter two had complete personality changes to go with their new faces.

 

[Tarek71]

All of which indicates that as far as Spock is concerned he is in the same universe, talking to younger versions of himself and others he knew. You can put your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la-I'm-not-listening, but the evidence is there.

Not at all. There are no doubt uncounted millions of parallel universes where Kirk and Spock are best friends. Elder Spock could be from any one of them. Apparently he's from one where this is what Kirk and Scotty have always looked like they do in ST09.

 

[stardream]

Maybe this is what Prime Spock saw.

Hmm......

 

[Tarek71]

I thought it was an affectionate parody, far from "totally screwing JJ Trek over"

On screen, Abrams films treat the younger actors as appearing liking the TOS crew when they were younger. Prime Spock recognizes Kirk and Scotty without any prompting or people telling him who is who.

I don't think it is more complicated than that.

No doubt Abrams intends that. But nothing in universe establishes that elder Spock and "prime" timeline Spock are from the same universe. If anything it seems clear that this elder Spock comes from a universe where Kirk, Scott and others look nothing like the "prime" versions.

How do you deal with other recastings? Ziyal, Saavik, Cochrane - the latter two had complete personality changes to go with their new faces.

Haha! Yes. And ST:FC Cochrane also appears to be a few inches taller. Like going to a world where Hitler is 6'4" with blond hair and no mustache. Yet everyone there tells you "That's Hitler".

The only explanation is that numerous Temporal events have occurred which slightly alter events. To the people in ST: TSFS, Saavik has always looked like that. They would not be aware of the temporal changes responsible for it.

 

[Trekkin]

Did anyone see the HISHE video which totally screws JJ Trek over.

Now that they have transwarp beaming they have no need for starships and Khan blood has made everyone immortal creating overpopulation..

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8[/yt]

Oh boy, they've also totally 'screwed over' Joss Whedon movies, every Nolan movie from the last decade, 'Gravity', 'The Walking Dead', and 'Game of Thrones.' The fan bases are going to get so mad! Torches and Pitchforks! Widespread disillusionment in their idols!

Or maybe they'll recognize it's a light hearted parody and not take it too seriously. That might happen.

Now excuse me, all this talk of HT has made me want to go watch Leonard Nimoy KO Darth Vader.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Did anyone see the HISHE video which totally screws JJ Trek over.

Now that they have transwarp beaming they have no need for starships and Khan blood has made everyone immortal creating overpopulation..

Oh boy, they've also totally 'screwed over' Joss Whedon movies, every Nolan movie from the last decade, 'Gravity', 'The Walking Dead', and 'Game of Thrones.' The fan bases are going to get so mad! Torches and Pitchforks! Widespread disillusionment in their idols!

Or maybe they'll recognize it's a light hearted parody and not take it too seriously. That might happen.

Now excuse me, all this talk of HT has made me want to go watch Leonard Nimoy KO Darth Vader.

Oh I know it's parody. I love the HISHE videos because of that. They are fun

 

[Nerys Myk]

I thought it was an affectionate parody, far from "totally screwing JJ Trek over"

No doubt Abrams intends that. But nothing in universe establishes that elder Spock and "prime" timeline Spock are from the same universe. If anything it seems clear that this elder Spock comes from a universe where Kirk, Scott and others look nothing like the "prime" versions.

How do you deal with other recastings? Ziyal, Saavik, Cochrane - the latter two had complete personality changes to go with their new faces.

Haha! Yes. And ST:FC Cochrane also appears to be a few inches taller. Like going to a world where Hitler is 6'4" with blond hair and no mustache. Yet everyone there tells you "That's Hitler".

The only explanation is that numerous Temporal events have occurred which slightly alter events. To the people in ST: TSFS, Saavik has always looked like that. They would not be aware of the temporal changes responsible for it.

Only? Nah.

Now tell me about an alternate universe where ships are made of plywood and entire planets have styrofoam rocks.

 

[Dukhat]

To think that Leonard Nimoy's Prime Spock in Star Trek '09 was anything other than the same Spock from TOS etc. is just silly. If he was someone else, then there'd be no point in having him in the film in the first place. The whole reason he was there was to show that the timeline changed from the Prime TOS/TNG/etc. timeline to this new one. The whole point of the alternate universe was to create a new playing field of story writing that wasn't confined to 40 years of previous Trek history, while at the same time paying tribute to the original by having someone from that original universe in a cameo. It's as simple as that. Why people feel the need to argue about that based on nitpicky stuff like how Pine doesn't look like Shatner or Greenwood doesn't look like Hunter is equally as silly, when as has been previously stated, actor changes for the same character are nothing new to Star Trek.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Did anyone see the HISHE video which totally screws JJ Trek over.

Now that they have transwarp beaming they have no need for starships and Khan blood has made everyone immortal creating overpopulation..

Actually in STTNG Picard and other crewmen that were turned into children on the transporter were able to get their old bodies back by a DNA sequencing switch on the transporter. They in theory should be able to save the DNA of their younger selves and as they grow older switch it and become younger by using the transporters. So Prime Trek has a way to make people immortal also.