Old Spock and new Spock. Is it an alternate universe?

[Kemaiku]

Is that where they came up with that just-pulled-it-out-of-their-ass idea that if you go back in time and touch your past self, you'll morph into each other and die a horrible death? Funny, I seem to recall an episode of DS9 where that happened to O'Brien, and he was just fine.

It was a misunderstanding of the pauli exclusion principle, ignoring the fact that a person even one second forward in time occupied different quantum coordinates anyway so nothing would happen. And cells replacing themselves in a few years.

They went with two humans having the same particles for life, so when two "identical" sets met, they underwent the exclusion explosion.

Poor physics, crappy scene.

 

[Cyke101]

He's probably thinking of Ron Silver's death scene in Timecop.

Is that where they came up with that just-pulled-it-out-of-their-ass idea that if you go back in time and touch your past self, you'll morph into each other and die a horrible death? Funny, I seem to recall an episode of DS9 where that happened to O'Brien, and he was just fine.

And the two Janeway's from "Endgame".

There were also the two Janeways from Deadlock. I'm not sure if they actually touched, but the way they talked so closely to each other in hushed tones made it seem that they really wanted to.

I shouldn't be surprised by Janeway/Janeway shipping at this point.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I wonder what the Abrams timeline's version of the Department of Temporal Investigations would have to say about all this.

(The DTI from the prime timeline would have no knowledge of the branching, since from their perspective, Nero and Spock just vanished and were never seen again. But the DTI that exists in the Abramsverse would certainly be interested...)

 

[stardream]

There were also the two Janeways from Deadlock. I'm not sure if they actually touched, but the way they talked so closely to each other in hushed tones made it seem that they really wanted to.

I shouldn't be surprised by Janeway/Janeway shipping at this point.

Wouldn't be surprised either...after all... fans shipped the 10th and 11th Doctor.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder what the Abrams timeline's version of the Department of Temporal Investigations would have to say about all this.

(The DTI from the prime timeline would have no knowledge of the branching, since from their perspective, Nero and Spock just vanished and were never seen again. But the DTI that exists in the Abramsverse would certainly be interested...)

Nero's incursion actually is what prompted DTI to receive full funding so that threats can be identified more readily

Also, red matter.

 

[Terok Nor]

The Abrams timeline was going along just fine, identical in every way to the Prime timeline until the Romulan ship came back through time from the late 24th century to the 23rd century. At that point the timeline split and separated. From that point onwards a new chain of events formed all future events in the Abrams timeline while preserving everything we've seen from the Prime timeline.

Essentially it's an alternate reality like the Mirror universe but it is newly created rather than always being there like all the other parallel universes in Trek.

Old Spock and new Spock share more similarities than say Old Spock and Mirror Spock or Kira and The Intendant but they're not the same person as they've had similar but not identical experiences.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It seemed like both time travel and universe hopping simultaneously. They arrived in the 23rd century of an alternate universe. Not sure how prime Kirk could appear. He's as dead as a door nail in the prime verse. So when in his prime time line could he come from to cross over to the AltVerse?

Only in the sense a new universe was created at the point of the time travelers' arrival. Branching time line, many worlds,,, just like the writers and the characters in the film have said since 2009.

Indeed. In my personal continuity, I prefer to think it was an already existing parallel universe to explain why Pike, Kirk, etc look physically different.

In my personal continuity it's because they're played by different actors. Just like Saavik in STIII and ST IV, Cochrane in STFC, DaiMon Bok in TNG S7, Owen Paris in VOY S6 & S7 and Tora Ziyal almost every time she appeared.

 

[Tarek71]

Indeed. In my personal continuity, I prefer to think it was an already existing parallel universe to explain why Pike, Kirk, etc look physically different.

In universe, they look exactly the same. Which is why Spock Prime is able to recognize Kirk in the cave.

Oh of course. JJ obviously intends that. Like the different James Bonds are intended to be the same man. Of course, they don't do time travel in Bond, so you never have to wonder how Craig ages into elderly Connery.

Since this is an AltVerse though, and they do in fact look very different, I prefer to say that this is an already existing universe that they entered. Hopefully we will not see Pine Kirk and Shatner Kirk ever meet. If you've ever seen a picture of the taller Pine and Shatner together it's a Lil too much of a stretch. Lol

 

[BillJ]

Indeed. In my personal continuity, I prefer to think it was an already existing parallel universe to explain why Pike, Kirk, etc look physically different.

In universe, they look exactly the same. Which is why Spock Prime is able to recognize Kirk in the cave.

Oh of course. JJ obviously intends that. Like the different James Bonds are intended to be the same man. Of course, they don't do time travel in Bond, so you never have to wonder how Craig ages into elderly Connery.

Since this is an AltVerse though, and they do in fact look very different, I prefer to say that this is an already existing universe that they entered. Hopefully we will not see Pine Kirk and Shatner Kirk ever meet. If you've ever seen a picture of the taller Pine and Shatner together it's a Lil too much of a stretch. Lol

I tend to use evidence when interpreting the material.

 

[Tarek71]

Only in the sense a new universe was created at the point of the time travelers' arrival. Branching time line, many worlds,,, just like the writers and the characters in the film have said since 2009.

Indeed. In my personal continuity, I prefer to think it was an already existing parallel universe to explain why Pike, Kirk, etc look physically different.

In my personal continuity it's because they're played by different actors. Just like Saavik in STIII and ST IV, Cochrane in STFC, DaiMon Bok in TNG S7, Owen Paris in VOY S6 & S7 and Tora Ziyal almost every time she appeared.

That's not your personal in universe continuity. That's just the reality of actors, contracts, etc. The problem is in having them meet because of a voluntary creative decision. To cast Curtis and Alley as the same character in the same production, for instance. They didn't do that, and wouldnt do that. Hopefully we will be spared Pine and Shatner meeting on screen as the Kirks.

JJ didn't want Quinto in old age makeup to play elder Spock. He wanted Nimoy. Obviously he intends them all to be the same. But since this is an alternate universe, and they do in fact look very different, it's not altogether crazy to think this was an already existing, and different universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Indeed. In my personal continuity, I prefer to think it was an already existing parallel universe to explain why Pike, Kirk, etc look physically different.

In universe, they look exactly the same. Which is why Spock Prime is able to recognize Kirk in the cave.

Oh of course. JJ obviously intends that. Like the different James Bonds are intended to be the same man. Of course, they don't do time travel in Bond, so you never have to wonder how Craig ages into elderly Connery.

Since this is an AltVerse though, and they do in fact look very different, I prefer to say that this is an already existing universe that they entered. Hopefully we will not see Pine Kirk and Shatner Kirk ever meet. If you've ever seen a picture of the taller Pine and Shatner together it's a Lil too much of a stretch. Lol

I'm sure Tom Cruise is surprised to discover he's not as tall as he appears in the movies.

 

[Tarek71]

In universe, they look exactly the same. Which is why Spock Prime is able to recognize Kirk in the cave.

Oh of course. JJ obviously intends that. Like the different James Bonds are intended to be the same man. Of course, they don't do time travel in Bond, so you never have to wonder how Craig ages into elderly Connery.

Since this is an AltVerse though, and they do in fact look very different, I prefer to say that this is an already existing universe that they entered. Hopefully we will not see Pine Kirk and Shatner Kirk ever meet. If you've ever seen a picture of the taller Pine and Shatner together it's a Lil too much of a stretch. Lol

I tend to use evidence when interpreting the material.

As do I. And the clear visual evidence is that these people look very different.

 

[BillJ]

As do I. And the clear visual evidence is that these people look very different.

But not to each other, as indicated by Spock Prime recognizing the alternate timeline James T. Kirk.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Indeed. In my personal continuity, I prefer to think it was an already existing parallel universe to explain why Pike, Kirk, etc look physically different.

In my personal continuity it's because they're played by different actors. Just like Saavik in STIII and ST IV, Cochrane in STFC, DaiMon Bok in TNG S7, Owen Paris in VOY S6 & S7 and Tora Ziyal almost every time she appeared.

That's not your personal in universe continuity. That's just the reality of actors, contracts, etc. The problem is in having them meet because of a voluntary creative decision. To cast Curtis and Alley as the same character in the same production, for instance. They didn't do that, and wouldnt do that. Hopefully we will be spared Pine and Shatner meeting on screen as the Kirks.

Of courses it's my "personal in universe continuity". I just said it was.

John Amos and LeVar Burton played the same character in the same continuity. They aren't twins. I'm sure there are more examples of two actors playing the same character at different ages. Even ones where they meet. So not seeing the problem.

JJ didn't want Quinto in old age makeup to play elder Spock. He wanted Nimoy. Obviously he intends them all to be the same. But since this is an alternate universe, and they do in fact look very different, it's not altogether crazy to think this was an already existing, and different universe.

It is my understanding that the film hinged on Nimoy playing Spock. No Nimoy and we would have gotten a different movie. Old age make up Quinto wasn't even considered.

It's "crazy" because it goes against whats said in the film and the creators intent.

 

[FormerLurker]

Reminds me of the Lois and Clark episode with 5'8" Jack Larson as the old Jimmy Olsen to 6'3" Justin Whalin's young Jimmy. It's never about whether or how much they look alike. It's about the fact that they've both played the same character, one years ago, one currently. I wouldn't put it past 007 producers, if they were to do a time travel story*, to cast Roger Moore as old 007 to Daniel Craig as current 007.

*Not that they would.

Quinto isn't even the second person to play Spock in official Trek. There were four boys and young men playing Spock on Genesis as his body aged into Nimoy, and none of them looked like Nimoy did at a similar age at all.

 

[Tarek71]

As do I. And the clear visual evidence is that these people look very different.

But not to each other, as indicated by Spock Prime recognizing the alternate timeline James T. Kirk.

The only in universe explanation is that elder Spock comes from a universe where that is what Kirk and Scott look like. Different actors is an explanation from the production, real world perspective. In universe these people are visually very different.

 

[Tarek71]

In my personal continuity it's because they're played by different actors. Just like Saavik in STIII and ST IV, Cochrane in STFC, DaiMon Bok in TNG S7, Owen Paris in VOY S6 & S7 and Tora Ziyal almost every time she appeared.

That's not your personal in universe continuity. That's just the reality of actors, contracts, etc. The problem is in having them meet because of a voluntary creative decision. To cast Curtis and Alley as the same character in the same production, for instance. They didn't do that, and wouldnt do that. Hopefully we will be spared Pine and Shatner meeting on screen as the Kirks.

Of courses it's my "personal in universe continuity". I just said it was.

"Different actors" is not in universe continuity. That's an observation from the production POV, not in universe.

It's "crazy" because it goes against whats said in the film and the creators intent.

Creators intent is not in universe. And nothing said in the film contradicts what I am saying.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As do I. And the clear visual evidence is that these people look very different.

But not to each other, as indicated by Spock Prime recognizing the alternate timeline James T. Kirk.

The only in universe explanation is that elder Spock comes from a universe where that is what Kirk and Scott look like. Different actors is an explanation from the production, real world perspective. In universe these people are visually very different.

Only? Nah.

 

[M'Sharak]

The difference in appearance between actors is a non-issue, so far as the story is concerned.

At various times, the character of King Arthur has been played by Cedric Hardwicke, Mel Ferrer, Harvey Korman, Richard Burton, Richard Harris, Graham Chapman, Malcolm McDowell and Sean Connery, just to name a few. No one ever demands an in-story reason for the actors not looking alike, because that would be absurd. Each time, the setting is Britain/Camelot, that guy is playing Arthur, and 'right, let's get on with the story to be told.

That one particular story takes place in an alternate version of the setting calls for no explanation of why one actor doesn't exactly resemble another, unless some element of the story being told hinges upon that difference in appearance. Absent a narrative reason for the difference, there is no difference.

In-universe, and though their back stories may differ between versions of the setting, Chris Pine's Kirk looks just like William Shatner's, Bruce Greenwood's Pike is indistinguishable from Jeffrey Hunter's, and so on. Bones, Scotty, Uhura... they're all the same characters. Even Chekov's hair? The same.

 

[Nerys Myk]

To paraphrase Pete Townshend "Meet the new Spock, same as the old Spock".