9X01 "The Magician's Apprentice" Grading/Discussion)

[MikeS]

Daft question from someone who has only "dipped his toe" into the 'Original Who'...

Where is the TARDIS in Genesis? Why are the Doctor and companions using that Time Ring thing? Just wondering if that has any relevance to my thoughts about the TARDIS being 'destroyed' here.

 

[matthunter]

Daft question from someone who has only "dipped his toe" into the 'Original Who'...

Where is the TARDIS in Genesis? Why are the Doctor and companions using that Time Ring thing? Just wondering if that has any relevance to my thoughts about the TARDIS being 'destroyed' here.

The group are mid-teleport up to Nerva Beacon (where they left the TARDIS at the end of The Ark in Space while they went to check out how future Earth's ecosystem was repairing itself, then getting embroiled in dealing with a Sontaran scientist in the story The Sontaran Experiment) when the Time Lords hijack their teleport. Instead, the Time Lords give them the Time Ring to get back to Nerva and the TARDIS.

Ironically, it still doesn't get them straight back - they appear on Nerva but in its past, when it was used as a monitoring station rather than a lifeboat for humanity. They get mixed up in its battle with Cybermen. Eventually the TARDIS appears, having "drifted" back to meet them.

 

[MikeS]

So more of a creative choice than a plot-point? I guess I'm over-analysing!

Ironic that one of the best episodes of Classic Who is without one of its best loved 'characters'.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

So, I got kicked from GallifreyBase for having a sense of humour. No biggie, as the discussion here is good. But I do miss the ratings info. Overnights were not high, but I do think Who is at the forefront of the shift to catch-up TV. So anyone know where we stand as of today in terms of time-shift? And how is the ep doing on iPlayer?

I haven't checked GB since this morning. Last I remember, the time shift in the first twenty-four hours had added something like 1.1 million to the total. I'll check the thread tonight and see what's up.

 

[MacLeod]

Well the Timelords (well the Celestial Intervention Agency) did like to use the Doctor from time to time, a case of plasuible denability

 

[Starkers]

But the Daleks have time travel. And they have the ability to travel through time and space with pinpoint accuracy. Witness the ability of the Daleks to procure the TARDIS and bring it through space and time to exactly the place they need it.

The Daleks don't need the TARDIS with an operator because they have their own time travel abilities.

Mr Awe

Well the Daleks have had time travel going all the way back to Hartnell's era, but I've never got the feeling it's quite on par with Timelord technology, and obviously there's more to the Tardis than just the time travel element.

Ian and Barbara returned home using Dalek time travel because it was more reliable than the Doctor's TARDIS at least.

In this episode, the Daleks were able to transport the TARDIS very precisely from where the Doctor left it to Davros' precise position in in time and space.

But, I do think it was just a ruse on Missy's part to get "killed".

Mr Awe

Yeah it did give Ian and Barbara a way home in The Chase.

I still have the notion at the back of my mind that no one was killed or transported away, and that the whole thing is a simulation. I kinda hope I'm wrong.

My feeling has always been that the Daleks weren't as advanced as the Time Lords but had the advantage of numbers and lack of internal division, whilst the Time Lords themselves were decadent, complacent and rife with intrigue. They also weren't really used to battle any more, except for the renegades. The whole thing was the barbarians versus Rome.

The Daleks had enough time tech to get to the battlefield, and sheer numbers and viciousness saw them win out. The Doctor saw the Daleks winning as not just a loss for his people but the entirety of creation... I always assumed that if the Daleks won and got their hands on the full power of the Time Lords, they'd use it in ways the TLs never dared.

Yeah I see the Daleks as the Soviet Union in WW2, their equipment isn't anywhere near as advanced, but they have a huge superiority in numbers and a willingness to throw numbers at the enemy. Of course by contrast the Timelords are the Nazis, not that I'm implying they're that bad of course

 

[Hartzilla2007]

My feeling has always been that the Daleks weren't as advanced as the Time Lords but had the advantage of numbers and lack of internal division, whilst the Time Lords themselves were decadent, complacent and rife with intrigue. They also weren't really used to battle any more, except for the renegades. The whole thing was the barbarians versus Rome.

The Daleks had enough time tech to get to the battlefield, and sheer numbers and viciousness saw them win out. The Doctor saw the Daleks winning as not just a loss for his people but the entirety of creation... I always assumed that if the Daleks won and got their hands on the full power of the Time Lords, they'd use it in ways the TLs never dared.

I don't know they way the Time War was described it was tearing the existence apart and releasing untold horrors on the universe, that sounds like something that would require the Daleks to be pretty high on the magic tech scale.

I just figure they lost most of their anti-timelord tech development when their forces in the war were wiped out.

 

[Nightowl1701]

That the newest version of the Doctor ran into the youngest version of Davros he ever met was an accident that most likely was not supposed to happen.

Nothing happens by accident. Not when it comes to the TARDIS. She knows damn well what planet that was, who that boy was. She arranged this.

I think Missy actually set up a win-win scenario: if the daleks refuse her offer and "kill" her, she escapes, and if the daleks were to accept her offer then she controls the most powerful force of conquest in the universe.

I thought of the opening of the McGann TV Movie in that scene, and wondered if the Daleks seemingly hearing Missy out was actually them silently wondering "Didn't we already maximum exterminate you??" (Assuming they could see through her new face like Davros could the Doctor's.)

When Clara said "We'll get sucked out!" as Missy opened the airlock on the 'space station'. I could not help but hear Data's reply "It's 'blown' out, sir, a common misconception". I was expecting Missy to correct Clara, it would have fitted her character's superiority complex, but they left it hanging. I wondered if that was an intentional nod by the creators to Trekdom. Or maybe it was just a writing error. Or maybe I've just watched Trek too many times.

Or Missy had already tuned out the puppy's yapping. '

I just figure they lost most of their anti-timelord tech development when their forces in the war were wiped out.

Agreed. Most likely they're like Missy now, relying on 'cheap-&-nasty' vortex manipulators. Though how you'd tow the TARDIS to Skaro using those is beyond me...

 

[diankra]

So more of a creative choice than a plot-point? I guess I'm over-analysing!

Ironic that one of the best episodes of Classic Who is without one of its best loved 'characters'.

Bit of both: there's no TARDIS scenes at all that season. Apart from Death to the Daleks in season 11, the interior doesn't appear at all between Planet of the Daleks in season 10 and Planet of Evil in season 13; aside from Terror of the Zygons (made for S12 but run in S13) and two others in S8&9, the police box doesn't even leave the studio between seasons six and 13! Both saved money, in terms of repairing the set and transporting the box to location.
In plot terms... if the Doctor fails and dies, the Time Lords probably don't want to leave a TARDIS lying around on Skaro.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

In The wonderful episode "The Doctor's Wife" it's explained that the TARDIS was never unreliable. Just that it took the Doctor to where he was needed, not always where he wanted to go....

I still think it would be nice if Missy isn't Missy but she is the "WIFE" or as we call her "Sexy" or TARDIS

 

[Nightowl1701]

In The wonderful episode "The Doctor's Wife" it's explained that the TARDIS was never unreliable. Just that it took the Doctor to where he was needed, not always where he wanted to go....

I still think it would be nice if Missy isn't Missy but she is the "WIFE" or as we call her "Sexy" or TARDIS

....I-I'm sorry, I thought you just said the psycho who was vaporizing people left and right earlier in the episode and freezing countless airplanes filled with innocent people in mid-air/time (to say nothing of her last appearance before that) was the very same 'character' that's taken us all over space and time for 52 years helping to fight evil and save the universe. I can't have read that right.

And while I'm aware I just said the TARDIS deliberately put the Doctor on Skaro to meet young Davros for a reason, I'm pretty sure killing the kid to rewrite history wholesale wasn't it.

 

[Mr Awe]

Well the Daleks have had time travel going all the way back to Hartnell's era, but I've never got the feeling it's quite on par with Timelord technology, and obviously there's more to the Tardis than just the time travel element.

Ian and Barbara returned home using Dalek time travel because it was more reliable than the Doctor's TARDIS at least.

The Doctor's TARDIS is quite reliable when she wants to be.

Perhaps later on but not back then. That's why they didn't get home earlier. They decided to get back home when they had access to the Dalek machine.

Mr Awe

 

[diankra]

Ian and Barbara returned home using Dalek time travel because it was more reliable than the Doctor's TARDIS at least.

The Doctor's TARDIS is quite reliable when she wants to be.

Perhaps later on but not back then. That's why they didn't get home earlier. They decided to get back home when they had access to the Dalek machine.

Mr Awe

Or... the TARDIS didn't want to get them home as she thought having them around was good for her tame Time Lord. Either works.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

In The wonderful episode "The Doctor's Wife" it's explained that the TARDIS was never unreliable. Just that it took the Doctor to where he was needed, not always where he wanted to go....

I still think it would be nice if Missy isn't Missy but she is the "WIFE" or as we call her "Sexy" or TARDIS

....I-I'm sorry, I thought you just said the psycho who was vaporizing people left and right earlier in the episode and freezing countless airplanes filled with innocent people in mid-air/time (to say nothing of her last appearance before that) was the very same 'character' that's taken us all over space and time for 52 years helping to fight evil and save the universe. I can't have read that right.

And while I'm aware I just said the TARDIS deliberately put the Doctor on Skaro to meet young Davros for a reason, I'm pretty sure killing the kid to rewrite history wholesale wasn't it.

Who knows? Maybe the TARDIS thinks killing him might change things.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

This would not be the first time that Sexy transported the Doctor to a pivotal moment in history. She transported him to Mars at a time when a base was attacked by a liquid enemy. I believe that Sexy has her own rules when it comes to what can and cannot happen in the time field. This is the same machine, where the audience and the companions are informed by the Doctor, that paradoxes cannot exist. Yet, in a miniepisode, multiple paradoxes occur when many Claras from different points in history are haranguing to the ship about the living conditions on it. She is a 11th dimensional being who exists outside of the time field: she is all of time - the past, the present, and the future.

One of the better moments in the episode was when Missy referred to the TARDIS as the dog's unmentionables, then proceeded to "tickle" a Dalek's hemispheres.

 

[Starkers]

^I have visions of the court case.

"Show me on this Dalek action figure where she touched you?"

 

[The Wormhole]

A thought just occurred, though maybe it's already covered in this thread, but I'll mention it anyway. Shouldn't pre-Time War Skaro be under time lock? In which case, the Doctor shouldn't actually be able to visit the battlefield between the Kaleds and the Thals, especially not unintentionally as seems to be the implication in his conversation with child Davros.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Could it only have been time-locked back to the first act of the Time War™?

 

[chelly]

I was thinking only galifrey was timelocked.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The entire war was locked.

The entire universe between the years the time war occurred.

Which from noncannical sources seems to be from the beginning of the universe till the end of the universe.

Time is locked, not space.

The Master aid that he went to where Gallifrey was, but nothing was there.