Spock Was First Officer in the Second Pilot
- Thread starter Ryan Thomas Riddle
- Start date
Dehner was criticizing Spock for, in effect, backstabbing Gary. Kirk was overruling her by pointing out that Spock was performing the duties of his position as science officer, by providing Kirk with the information he needs to make his decisions, however unpleasant it was.
In the context of the conversation, Spock was the only person it would have made sense for "science officer" to have referred to.
Given the behind-the-scenes information that only supports the idea that Spock was science officer, I frankly really don't see what point splitting hairs to try to tease out a far-fetched alternate interpretation serves, assuming another remotely sensible interpretation even exists.
The colour of tunic isn't enough of an indicator of ranking and position. Spock wears blue throught the rest of TOS yet is clear the First Officer as well as Science Officer.
It's possible Spock went through some transition much like Uhura did when we briefly see her wearing gold and yet she was still the Communications Officer.
It's possible Spock went through some transition much like Uhura did when we briefly see her wearing gold and yet she was still the Communications Officer.
Thank you. That's the opinion I wanted to hear - and as I outlined, there are other possibilities, so I'm waiting to hear other opinions as well. Quite possibly they are all identical to yours, of course.
Well, this thread splits hairs. The thread from which this one budded off split hairs. That's the interesting part of being a Trekkie, now that everything else has been said and done a thousand times already.
Specifically, the original thread was interested in Spock's double role as XO and CSO, an issue unrelated to writer intent as they couldn't have cared less, but of some interest in in-universe terms because it's so alien to the reality we know. The status of Spock in the second pilot ties directly into this. And him being CSO might be ammo against him being XO in in-universe terms if one so wishes, and vice versa.
Timo Saloniemi
Hm. I always interpreted "Where No Man Has Gone Before" as a stepping-stone, a sort of way station inhabited before the main characters' roles were established for the long haul in "Charlie X" and beyond. In "Where No Man," all the uniforms looked different, Sulu was an astrophysicist rather than a helmsman, and McCoy hadn't been introduced yet. Pretty major differences, all of them, hence my perception of this episode as an outlier.
Don't forget this dialogue exchange near the beginning of the episode:
This would indicate that Dr. Dehner is a very recent addition to the ship's crew (Kirk didn't even know who she was until Dr. Piper introduced her), and her posting to the Enterprise a temporary one. Definitely not the ship's Science Officer.
Well, if the captain is the star, the other cast member he's going to have the most interaction with is the second-in-command. It would be odd indeed to have a number of different guest stars appearing in that position.
Agreed, the way the scene plays out, interpreting it any other way is not credible.
On the contrary, according to what Harvey posted above, the show's creator cared enough to put in writing his original intent that the ship's science officer was ex officio the ship's second-in-command.
Thanks to Ryan and Harvey as always for providing some great information. It has always surprised me how strongly the idea of Mitchell as first officer has taken root, with so little to support it.
And that's an interesting concept if Kirk's mission is to go beyond that fancy hard shell of the galaxy and study the outside - a mission that might well take years for all the investment already made in it. (Heck, perhaps Kirk is that young because a more seasoned big-ship CO would be dead by the time the mission ends!)
Clearly, Dehner is an outsider; her mission is to evaluate the regular crew, after all. Or is that clear? With Dehner gone, Kirk suddenly gets a CMO who is a specialist in space psychology... Did Starfleet decide to conflate two jobs for cost efficiency, or to slip Kirk a mole?
That depends on whether a starship has a single Science Officer, or dozens. In VOY, we get treated to the concept of Chief Science Officer, arguably the job held by Spock in the regular series. But the pilots already featured officers who did science, and supposedly nothing else. What would Sulu have been if not a Science Officer?
Supposedly, the idea being suggested was that XO being a guest star would be a pilot-only phenomenon... Would that have been unheard of?
Timo Saloniemi
Ever since I got the chance to see the 'presentation pilot' version of WNMHGB, it's sort of solidifed itself as the correct version in my mind. The idea of Enterprise going out into the great unknown is kind of mentioned but downplayed in the broadcast version; whereas in the presentation pilot it feels more like a big deal that they're going out there. I like the concept that they were prepping themselves up for this long mission out beyond the galaxy, but subsequent to the energy barrier they returned to lighter duties.
For me, it adds spice and variety to the Star Trek universe if the Enterprise crew didn't spring forward, perfectly formed from the get-go. Even if it wasn't the scripted intent at the time, the episode has to viewed in the overall context of the rest of the series (or franchise) as a whole. As others have pointed out, shirt colour isn't necessarily a guiding factor to a person's role: Indeed, "command gold" seems to be used as generic uniform for anyone on the command track who hasn't opted for a speciality (yet).
- Spock going from blue (Cage) to gold (WNMHGB) and back to blue again (TCM), as he decides to retain the whole sphere of scientific duties along with his (possibly newly acquired) XO responsibilities.
- Sulu on the other hand is comfortable to stay on the command track, switching from physics dept head (WNMHGB) to chief helmsman and (3rd or 4th) in command overall, handing over the science responsibilities to someone else (possibly Spock).
- Uhura begins in command gold (TCM) perhaps due to a raft of skills across several departments (detailed on another thread). However, she quickly settles on the communications department head role and so dons the red uniform (TEM).
What ends up onscreen always bears more weight than original scripted intention, IMO. Does this prove definitively that Mitchell was Kirk's XO? Of course not, but it does show that there's not a lot of evidence against such a setup (in-universe, of course)
Lance - count me as another one who prefers the original presentation pilot
Regarding the shirt colors, I'd assume that few can start out with Command and stay with Command all the way. Rather, positions of power are earned through service, and that service is in a variety of departments and colors; when sufficient rank and experience is achieved for command tasks, the officer may become a department head, or use that as another rung in his long climb to ultimate command of some nice dark syntheoak desk in San Francisco.
Basically, Spock back in the days of "The Cage" could not have worn the command symbols even if he wanted to; it only became an option a decade later. Wearing gold with some other division logo on the chest might have been an option, though.
This assuming that the colors correspond to anything like "paths" and the logos to "divisions". For all we know, the three colors stand for the three shifts, and adventures/emergencies send key personnel from other shifts to assist the preferred, first-into-the-fire Gold Shift...
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, Spock back in the days of "The Cage" could not have worn the command symbols even if he wanted to; it only became an option a decade later. Wearing gold with some other division logo on the chest might have been an option, though.
This assuming that the colors correspond to anything like "paths" and the logos to "divisions". For all we know, the three colors stand for the three shifts, and adventures/emergencies send key personnel from other shifts to assist the preferred, first-into-the-fire Gold Shift...
Timo Saloniemi
And yet Ensign "Green" Chekov started out in gold straight away!
Well, in the context of the series as a whole, Spock was first officer-slash-science officer and functioned basically the same as he did in WNMHGB. All that changed was the shirt color.
I seem to say this every month or two, so sorry if it sounds redundant. But the uniform color in TOS seems to have nothing to do with "command track" (or what in the show might be called line officer staus) or career specialty. Spock wears blue but is in line of command. Scotty wears red but is in line of command. DeSalle wears red but is in line of command. Uhura wears red but is in line of command (TAS). The gold/green shirt division seems to handle flight control and weapon fire control, if it had been called the "control" division there might have been less confusion. But being assigned to the command division seems to indicate little about how close a person is to actually being in command.
As far as the uniforms and insignia in WNMHGB, it was indeed much different than in the regular series run. But put it this way: If you didn't know anything about the characters, but one wore the same color and badge as the captain and one didn't, which one would you think more likely to be second in command?
^ I agree, Control seems to cover more than Command, because why would they have Ensigns in that color, they shouldn't be on the Command list.
I also say that the uniform choice is more like a major area of expertise than and absolute limit on what someone can do. It's easy with Spock and Scott, who's characters so clearly stated their preferences with Science and Engineering. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to say that either one of them could have been commanding their own ship at this point in their respective careers if that was their career goal, however, they were more concerned with their specialties than command, thus they are in those colors.
I also say that the uniform choice is more like a major area of expertise than and absolute limit on what someone can do. It's easy with Spock and Scott, who's characters so clearly stated their preferences with Science and Engineering. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to say that either one of them could have been commanding their own ship at this point in their respective careers if that was their career goal, however, they were more concerned with their specialties than command, thus they are in those colors.
I think we all have to agree that on-screen evidence (I will NOT use the "c" word) is inconclusive. I think the strongest evidence for Mitchell being XO, and what likely gave rise to that impression in fandom, is the fact that Kirk requested that Mitchell be assigned to Kirk's first command (which is also the source for the fan belief that Enterprise was Kirk's first command). Generally, a captain gets to select his XO.
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