In universe, they are the same guy.
MontalKhan, brownfaced?
- Thread starter urbandefault
- Start date
In universe, they are the same guy.
I meant Spanish. Khan had a particular image and accent. Where did it go when Cumberbatch assumed the role? Even if we take it that how he looks is unimportant then what's the deal with the accent? There was no explanation.
I guess what he looks like can be passed over in the grand scheme of things since neither actor was Indian like the character is meant to be but the accent was jarring. I guess the difference then between De Niro and Brando is that they played Corleone at different stages of his life whereas Montalban and Cumberbatch played Khan at the same stage of life.
I just read the review of the book and it explains everything. Too bad the writers didn't bother putting it into the movie.
Which accent? The Spanish one or the English one? Should Moore, Dalton, Brosnan and Craig have used a Scots accent when playing James Bond? An Indian with a British accent actually makes more sense than an Indian with a Spanish accent, historically speaking.
Of course it does makes sense for Khan to look different. Khan Noonien Singh was a dictator who ruled a quarter of the Earth. Not a face you'd want to have.
Not important to the plot really.
I just read the review of the book and it explains everything. Too bad the writers didn't bother putting it into the movie.
Not important to the plot really.
I just read the review of the book and it explains everything. Too bad the writers didn't bother putting it into the movie.
Not to you obviously, but I don't like having to fill in plot holes by reading spin off material or making up my own explanations. The Abrams Trek is a parallel universe. If it follows what we've seen of other parallel universes then everyone should be the same. Kirk can't suddenly become a Klingon, Uhura can't suddenly become caucasian, Spock can't suddenly be an Andorian. It's the same characters in different circumstances, not the same characters in different bodies.
James Bond is an English spy. Of course they have to play him with an English accent. By all rights an Indian actor should have played Khan in the first place but since Montalban established Khan's image it should have been carried over to the new movies in my opinion. Ideally I'd have liked an Indian actor in the role but I can look past that. I suppose my biggest gripe is that Cumberbatch's character didn't remind me of Khan in the slightest. He was a great villain but there was little about him that was Khan as far as I'm concerned.
None of the original crew knew what Khan looked like before they "Googled" his image in Space Seed. I can't imagine that many people would expect a genetically engineered dictator from the 1990's to still be kicking in the 23rd century. Changing his image was unnecessary but the explanation from the comic book that he had his memory wiped makes a lot of sense. Should have been referenced in the movie.
Its not a plot hole. His being played by an Hispanic actor previously is not a plot point.
Indians, Spaniards and the English are all "Caucasians" and humans. Guess what? Neither Chris Pine nor Zach Quinto are Jewish. Zoe Saldana's ancestry is different than Nichele Nicols. Neither Simon Pegg nor James Doohan are Scots!
Yes an Indian actor who be my choice as well.
No, he's a British spy originally played by a Scottish actor with a Scots accent.
Eh, I always read in to Khan's line about Harrison being a "fiction created by Admiral Marcus" as that he redid his face and had him work in London as part of his cover. I needed no supplemental material. It only supported my conclusion.
As for Khan in "Space Seed" I thought he was made up but I could provide no evidence to that fact beyond seeing Khan in TOS and in TWOK.
I could be totally wrong on this one.
As for Khan in "Space Seed" I thought he was made up but I could provide no evidence to that fact beyond seeing Khan in TOS and in TWOK.
I could be totally wrong on this one.
I could find no definitive source confirming or denying makeup on Montalban, save the opinion of a blogger below.
"...But they put Montalban in brown makeup for Khan, just as they did Leonard Nimoy when he played a Native American on Gunsmoke."
(source: response to blog)
I thought this was a very interesting view to take:
..."In the original Trek, Khan, with his brown skin, was an Übermensch, intellectually and physically perfect, possessed of such charisma and drive that despite his efforts to gain control of the Enterprise, Captain Kirk (and many of the other officers) felt admiration for him.
And that’s why the role has been taken away from actors of colour and given to a white man. Racebending.com has always pointed out that villains are generally played by people with darker skin, and that’s true … unless the villain is one with intelligence, depth, complexity. One who garners sympathy from the audience, or if not sympathy, then — as from Kirk — grudging admiration. What this new Trek movie tells us, what JJ Abrams is telling us, is that no brown-skinned man can accomplish all that. That only by having Khan played by a white actor can the audience engage with and feel for him, believe that he’s smart and capable and a match for our Enterprise crew."
(source: http://www.racebending.com/v4/featured/star-trek-whiteness/
"...But they put Montalban in brown makeup for Khan, just as they did Leonard Nimoy when he played a Native American on Gunsmoke."
(source: response to blog)
I thought this was a very interesting view to take:
..."In the original Trek, Khan, with his brown skin, was an Übermensch, intellectually and physically perfect, possessed of such charisma and drive that despite his efforts to gain control of the Enterprise, Captain Kirk (and many of the other officers) felt admiration for him.
And that’s why the role has been taken away from actors of colour and given to a white man. Racebending.com has always pointed out that villains are generally played by people with darker skin, and that’s true … unless the villain is one with intelligence, depth, complexity. One who garners sympathy from the audience, or if not sympathy, then — as from Kirk — grudging admiration. What this new Trek movie tells us, what JJ Abrams is telling us, is that no brown-skinned man can accomplish all that. That only by having Khan played by a white actor can the audience engage with and feel for him, believe that he’s smart and capable and a match for our Enterprise crew."
(source: http://www.racebending.com/v4/featured/star-trek-whiteness/
Actually Bond is an Englishman as written by author Ian Fleming. He's British in the sense that England is part of Great Britain but he's supposed to be English. Connery was just crap at doing the accent.
The character of Khan being Indian is a plot point in "Space Seed". Perhaps back then those in charge thought Montalban fit the bill but I personally don't. He was fantastic in the role but he looked nothing like an Indian. That said, he was the one who put his stamp on the character and made Khan iconic. If an Indian actor could not be found to play Khan in the latest movie then it should at least have been Spanish actor to provide some continuity with Montalban's version.
Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto don't play William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy I'm unsure what their not being Jewish has to do with anything. Zoe Saldana isn't playing Nichelle Nichols. She's playing Uhura. Nichols herself approves of Saldana as Uhura and that's good enough for me. No need to inform me Simon Pegg isn't Scottish. I've heard his Scotty accent
He's a Scot in the films and retconned into being a Scot in the books.
wiki said:
Yes, but not him being played by an Hispanic actor.
They originally did look at several Hispanic actors but couldn't come to term. IIRC, Cumberbatch was a last minute choice. Roberto Orci, a Mexican by birth, said he didn't want a person of color playing Khan because the association with terrorism.
A much as Cumberbatch and Montalban's ethnic backgrounds have to so with playing Khan.Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto don't play William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy I'm unsure what their not being Jewish has to do with anything. Zoe Saldana isn't playing Nichelle Nichols. She's playing Uhura. Nichols herself approves of Saldana as Uhura and that's good enough for me. No need to inform me Simon Pegg isn't Scottish. I've heard his Scotty accent
Nichols approval isn't under discussion. Casting a person who matches the previous actors ethnic background is.
I'm big enough to admit when I'm in the wrong. I wasn't aware of the retcon about James Bond. I guess it applies only if you accept retcons. I usually don't but since it's in writing by the author it's a mute point. I hold my hands up.
I don't agree with Orci's decision to overlook people of colour due to those reasons. I'd hope most of us can tell the difference between reality and fiction. It was a cop out excuse in my honest opinion but what's done is done.
Let me put this to you, Nerys Myk. Khan was written to be an Indian character. He was not originally played by an Indian actor and the new movie reinvented him as a white Englishman. Scotty was written to be a white Scottish character. He was not originally played by a Scottish actor but the new movie kept him white and Scottish. Do you see my point now? Why one rule for Scotty and another for Khan? Seems a bit disingenuous to me on the part of the film makers.
I don't agree with Orci's decision to overlook people of colour due to those reasons. I'd hope most of us can tell the difference between reality and fiction. It was a cop out excuse in my honest opinion but what's done is done.
Let me put this to you, Nerys Myk. Khan was written to be an Indian character. He was not originally played by an Indian actor and the new movie reinvented him as a white Englishman. Scotty was written to be a white Scottish character. He was not originally played by a Scottish actor but the new movie kept him white and Scottish. Do you see my point now? Why one rule for Scotty and another for Khan? Seems a bit disingenuous to me on the part of the film makers.
Being a white male myself, I can not offer a proper perspective on it beyond, "What?"
I felt no sympathy for Harrison-Khan in ID, and I labored under no impression that I should. His race, skin-tone, whatever, matters so little to the plot that I wish they had been able to keep their first choice of Benicio del Toro to avoid this.
But, back to the OT, I think it is a difficult question to answer, simply because what was acceptable for actors to portray (Nimoy as a Native American, Montalban being made up as an Asian character, etc) is different from now. I don't think you can ask the question about make-up and what he was supposed to portray has to be viewed in that light. If he was made up, then he was made up and that was par for the course.
Also, as a quick note, Simon Pegg is English born and raised, and is not Scottish. He received coaching tips on his Scottish accent from his wife and one of the producers on the film.
I felt no sympathy for Harrison-Khan in ID, and I labored under no impression that I should. His race, skin-tone, whatever, matters so little to the plot that I wish they had been able to keep their first choice of Benicio del Toro to avoid this.
But, back to the OT, I think it is a difficult question to answer, simply because what was acceptable for actors to portray (Nimoy as a Native American, Montalban being made up as an Asian character, etc) is different from now. I don't think you can ask the question about make-up and what he was supposed to portray has to be viewed in that light. If he was made up, then he was made up and that was par for the course.
Also, as a quick note, Simon Pegg is English born and raised, and is not Scottish. He received coaching tips on his Scottish accent from his wife and one of the producers on the film.
I feel that Khan should ideally be played by an Indian actor and Scotty should be played by a Scots actor.
I don't know that Khan is a White Englishman. His accent and appearance might be as false as the name "John Harrison". The actor OTOH is White and English.
As a person of color, Orci is probably closer to the issue of "terrorists are all brown skinned" than I'll ever be. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on his reasons.
I just turned on the TV to find Die Another Day on. A Bond film that features an Asian character who becomes European to further his nefarious scheme
I feel that Khan should ideally be played by an Indian actor and Scotty should be played by a Scots actor.
I don't know that Khan is a White Englishman. His accent and appearance might be as false as the name "John Harrison". The actor OTOH is White and English.
As a person of color, Orci is probably closer to the issue of "terrorists are all brown skinned" than I'll ever be. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on his reasons.
I just turned on the TV to find Die Another Day on. A Bond film that features an Asian character who becomes European to further his nefarious scheme
Maybe that is "whiteface"
Why? The Enterprise doesn't look the same. That's because of the timeline change right? I can only assume so. How many timeline changes were there? Did one happen before Khan's folks got together? Did his father marry a different woman and have a different child. Come to think of it, was he the product of a test tube (I actually need to go back and re-watch for that)?
J-Trek opened a can of worms. When did the timeline change? Is what you see in J-Trek 1 the cause of the timeline change? Or is it a result of it? The J-Trek Enterprise (and other ships) are so different and based on such a different development philosophy that one could easily assume the timeline change occurred are earlier.
Just my thoughts - and also why I am not sure I like J-Trek.....I enjoy it....but it's kinda an icky perversion at the same time.
Similar threads
