Will Riker refusing own command

[Mojochi]

It would still seem to be easier to just make the Cairo the new ship of the sector, than to play musical chairs all over the place, especially since they're disbanding the ENT-D's command structure to man their secret mission. Nechayev makes it clear that the name value of "The Enterprise" is why they are sending that ship. It just strikes me that Jellico is put in command of her for that reason, otherwise, the smarter course of action would be to just reassign the 2 ships, because The Cairo would need much less restructuring

The Galaxy class is the Federation's top dog at that point. Why send a lesser ship?

You wouldn't, except that it may not be outfitted for a specific mission & it would be more of an issue to refit it (As Jellico does fairly quickly) than to just send someone else, which it wasn't

Of course it is. Jellico is probably more of a known commodity in the captain's chair than Riker is. Especially in regards to the Cardassians. Probably also their best military strategist with Picard sidelined.

The military is usually far more flexible than what we see in Star Trek.

My overall point is that it would be short sighted to think that when they put him in there they had any other notion than that he should run that ship how he runs ships & tackle that mission the way he tackles missions like it. That anyone has objections may be fair, but for anyone to hold a grudge against the man, including Riker, is just wrong. No one has any grounds to say he is doing anything out of line or reckless or counterproductive even. He gets the exact result he needs, as soon as everyone wraps their heads around how to deliver it

He was the right man for the job, & all Riker does in that episode is show multiple times how he wasn't

 

[Jedman67]

I was trying to do a tabbed org chart - but the formatting here won't let me.

The point of my post is that the Federation uses Starfleet for military/scientific/exploration purposes, and while Federation matters can on occasion directly determine the actions of individual vessels, on most occasions the power structure in order of supremacy is

1) Federation
2) Starfleet
3) Individual fleets
4) Vessels designated as flagships for a specific mission or because they are commanded by a flag officer (which could be a senior captain or an Admiral).

So the Enterprise may have been designated a flagship for a variety of reasons, but it could be either a flagship of the Federation (although under the direction of Starfleet) for diplomatic missions or a Starfleet flagship for military/science/exploration missions.

Those designations and assignments could be interchangeable.

Federation tells Starfleet what to do, starfleets brass (admiral-of-the-week) tells captain what to do.
Individual fleets that don't fall under the starfleet charter are answerable to their own government, which is answerable to the federation.
As we have not seen any admirals commanding fleets; its safe to assume that "flagship" does not normally refer to carrying a flag officer.

 

[Ithekro]

Which is besides the point. USS Enterprise has the title "Flagship of the Federation". This is not a position in the battleline flagship type deal, nor that of a flag officer's command. It is a title given to the top ship sent to represent the Federation. It could also be considered a public relations title, much like those of Cruise Lines that have Flagships today.

On top of that title, in this episode, USS Enterprise was to be pressed into service as sector flagship in case of war with Cardassia. This is a separate meaning for the word "flagship" as this one implies being the lead vessel in the battleline (with or without an admiral in charge).

 

[Jedman67]

Federation is synonymous with Starfleet in this type of scenario. There's little on-screen mention of a Federation Merchant Marine (prior to DS9), which could also utilize the designation "Flagship" in some cases, depending on whether private ships are essentially chartered from the government (as i believe the case is in the US MM and Railroads) or some other form of license.

 

[Disco]

From reading the thread am I right in thinking the general consensus is:

- Ent-D under Picard's command with his command style would be ready to face the Cardassians
- Ent-D under Riker's command with Picard's command style wouldn't be ready to face the Cardassians
- Ent-D under Jellico with his command style would be ready to face the Cardassians

 

[Jedman67]

From reading the thread am I right in thinking the general consensus is:<br />
<br />
- Ent-D under Picard's command with his command style would be ready to face the Cardassians<br />
- Ent-D under Riker's command with Picard's command style wouldn't be ready to face the Cardassians<br />
- Ent-D under Jellico with his command style would be ready to face the Cardassians

<br />
<br />

I would say that under Jellico, the E-D would whup ass and take names; under Picard, they'd be prepared to fight but Picard would attempt to negotiate.
Under Ruler, from what we've seen on the handful of times he's taken command, I won't even speculate

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[BillJ]

I would say that under Jellico, the E-D would whup ass and take names; under Picard, they'd be prepared to fight but Picard would attempt to negotiate.

I don't know? Jellico seemed to have some negotiating skills...

WORF: Captain, the shuttlecraft is emerging from the nebula.
JELLICO: Enterprise to shuttle. Were you successful, Commander?
RIKER [OC]: Aye, sir. The mines are laid.
JELLICO: Very well. Red alert. Stand by to detonate the mines on my command.
WORF: Standing by.
JELLICO: Open a channel to the Reklar.
LEMEC [on viewscreen]: This is Cardassian territory, Captain. Your presence here is another deliberate provocation to
JELLICO: I'm not going to argue with you, Gul Lemec. Every one of your ships has a mine on its belly, my finger's on the button, and you're in a very bad position.
LEMEC [on viewscreen]: You can't intimidate us.
JELLICO: Mister Worf, set off alpha four two.
WORF: Aye, sir.
(the Reklar shakes)
JELLICO: That was just a baby. The big boys are sitting on your hull just waiting for me to say the word.
LEMEC [on viewscreen]: What are your terms?
JELLICO: Your ships will leave the nebula one by one. Each ship will eject its primary phaser coil before setting course for the nearest Cardassian base.
LEMEC [on viewscreen]: But that will leave us defenseless.
JELLICO: Mister Worf, prepare to detonate
LEMEC [on viewscreen]: I will agree to your terms.
JELLICO: Excellent. Oh, and one more thing. I understand you're holding a Starfleet officer named Jean-Luc Picard. I expect him returned. immediately.

The name of the game is to press when you have the advantage.

 

[Jedman67]

Sorry, what I meant is that Picard would invite them over for some tea and work out their differences.
Jellico was more of a subscriber to gunboat diplomacy 😃

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[woodstock]

Riker's career took a bit of a beating after the Pegasus incident, He wasn't court martialed, but it's a likely reason he wasn't offered a command for several years until Titan came along. Picard said that he would have some tough questions to answer but afterward he would still be proud to have him as a first officer, meaning he probably wouldn't have many other options.

 

[WoTe]

I once enjoyed a number one for a long time (too many lagers).

Why command a nothing ship charting a bland little nebula for three weeks when you can be second in command of the Enterprise (which is involved in significantly more interesting adventures due to its status as the flagship). Riker knew he'd be captain one day so what did it matter that it was put off?

I totally get his decision and what's more, I think his decision actually showed more ambition not less.

Patrick Stewart looks like he could have been captain, even now or at least up to a few years back. 22 years after the show ended. AND THEY SHOULD HAVE KEPT THE SHOW GOING TOO! Didn't need full seasons, I'd been happy with 4-8 really good episodes a year.

Riker would have been like Prince Chuckles over the ocean, waiting for dear old mum to keel over so he can reign for 3 days and then die of old age himself.

 

[BillJ]

Riker's career took a bit of a beating after the Pegasus incident, He wasn't court martialed, but it's a likely reason he wasn't offered a command for several years until Titan came along. Picard said that he would have some tough questions to answer but afterward he would still be proud to have him as a first officer, meaning he probably wouldn't have many other options.

Riker should've been tossed in jail for that whole mess.

 

[Lance]

Riker's career took a bit of a beating after the Pegasus incident, He wasn't court martialed, but it's a likely reason he wasn't offered a command for several years until Titan came along. Picard said that he would have some tough questions to answer but afterward he would still be proud to have him as a first officer, meaning he probably wouldn't have many other options.

Aye, I always figured the Pegasus incident 'coming out' had an effect on his career afterwards, although it's worth noting that he'd already turned down many, many commands before this.

Riker's rise through the ranks was meteoric. He went from Ensign to Commander in a quite short amount of time, due to a string of incidents bolstering his record (backing his Captain following the Pegasus incident; rescuing the colonists on Nervala IV), all of which led to commendations and promotions. My feeling is that in some ways he may have felt he was being fast-tracked too quickly, and that when he landed on the Enterprise, he deliberately put the brakes on, because he realised he could (and probably should) get a bit more experience under his belt, and that the seasoned officer Jean-Luc Picard was as good a man to learn under as anyone he could hope for. Indeed, it's very telling that he was actually offered a Captaincy (the USS Drake) at the same time as the Enterprise commission came up, but he opted to stay as a first officer instead of stepping up the ladder...

 

[woodstock]

A couple lines of dialogue about wanting to slow down after rising so fast would've made this whole thread unnecessary, but the Pegasus incident was good way for the show to justify his staying as first officer when in reality (such as it is) someone would have moved on already.

 

[Lance]

Definitely agree. As far as Riker sticking around in the movies is concerned, the Pegasus incident 'coming out' is a nice fudge to explain it, as well as the incident over Veridian III where he was in command of 1701-D when she was lost. We know from "The Battle" and "The Measure of a Man", not to mention "Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home", that Starfleet takes the loss of its starships very seriously, and that they hold hearings and court martials into these things, occasionally handing out judgements and demotions. So, probably the later part of Riker's career advancement was blighted by both of these black marks, even *if* he was ultimately exonerated on losing the 1701-D. He had the confidence of Captain Picard, which might explain why he stuck around a further seven years aboard 1701-E before finally moving on. But he wasn't being offered other commands any more during that time, and the Titan probably came along at just the right time in his life when he got married and started to re-evaluate things again, being more willing to say 'Okay, let's do this thing now'.

 

[Jedman67]

I find trying to come up with theories regarding his promotions and such to be a little tiring. Frakes wanted to stay on TNG and the movies, and everything else was secondary. Would have been nice for the writers to provide a believable explanation, however.

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[Mr. Laser Beam]

Would Riker have been court-martialed for the loss of the Ent-D? Picard was still the captain, even though he wasn't on the bridge at the time. So does the court-martial go to the officer in actual command of the ship (Riker) or the registered official CAPTAIN of the ship (Picard)?

As for the Pegasus, Riker wasn't responsible for Pressman's actions. At the time of the ship's loss, Riker was just a loyal ensign protecting his captain from a mutiny. He wasn't in any position to actually report Pressman for violating the Treaty of Algeron - you can't expect the greenest of ensigns (which is what Riker was) to have that kind of guts.

 

[Ithekro]

Well Picard was in command of a new ship within a year or two after the loss of the Enterprise-D. Last time he lost a starship, it seemed like it was about eight years before he was given another starship. Though we actually don't know much about what Picard was doing for Starfleet between the lose of USS Stargazer and his mission to Farpoint Station.

 

[BillJ]

As for the Pegasus, Riker wasn't responsible for Pressman's actions. At the time of the ship's loss, Riker was just a loyal ensign protecting his captain from a mutiny. He wasn't in any position to actually report Pressman for violating the Treaty of Algeron - you can't expect the greenest of ensigns (which is what Riker was) to have that kind of guts.

Maybe. But you can expect Lieutenant Riker, Lieutenant Commander Riker or Commander Riker to have that kind of guts somewhere along the way. He knows right from wrong and he knew that those people aboard the Pegasus died from improper actions of her captain.

 

[Ithekro]

He just needed a good speech to get the truth out of him. He was going to go for Archer's, but settled on Picard's.

 

[BillJ]

Riker's character suffered badly over the last half of the series.