Rogue One (2016) [SW Anthology Series)

[CorporalCaptain]

As we saw in the films, it took until *after* the battle of Hoth for the name "Skywalker" to reach the Emperor (or at least, for him to get around to telling Vader) which by all accounts is several years after Yavin.
Based on Vader's reaction, he must have assumed (thanks to Palpatine's goading) that Padme died right there on Mustafar and "the baby" along with her.

One assumes there may be other Skywalkers out there, descended from siblings or cousins of Shimi, so the name may not be massively unusual.

No. It's established that Vader already knew about Luke prior to his conversation with the Emperor in at least two different ways. First of all, there's the opening crawl, as I already cited.

Secondly, when the fragment of the probe droid's report plays to Vader, he says that he is sure "Skywalker" is with the Rebels, dovetailing with and confirming that what the opening crawl says is literally true: Vader is searching for Luke prior to the Imperial fleet's arrival at Hoth.

I said at least two ways, and there really is a third. Vader chases after Falcon, evidently believing Luke to be aboard her, at least until it arrives at Bespin. It must have been Leia's presence that he sensed, and he merely confused it with Luke's.

 

[Ithekro]

After several years chasing down Skywalker, Vader had probably come to the conclusion that even if Luke was not on the Millennium Falcon, it was an important ship to Luke, thus worth chasing. It was the ship that brought Obi-wan to the Death Star and the one that interrupted Vader's last trench run to prevent the destruction of the Death Star. He has special interest in that ship now. With the Emperor finally officially noticing that young Skywalker is a danger and growing in the Force enough to be a threat, Vader now has a way to trap Luke using his close friends. People he figures Luke would sense being in danger and come to their aid. Much as Anakin would have done in his place many year ago.

Most comics that have dealt with this time period, have Vader find out the name of the pilot that destroyed the Death Star. Those made before the reveal have him focus on this being a student of Kenobi and probably remembering the other student named Skywalker from long ago.. Those made after the reveal...when Vader reacts to that name. About the only name that could effect him now that Kenobi is dead.

However, in Rogue One, Vader can just be what is was. The Emperor's enforcer hunting down the Rebel's hidden base. If he shows up, people will start dying.

However if the guy is suppose to be Biggs, how did he manage to make it to Yavin IV following the events just before Vader chases after Leia? Did Vader miss him? Leia was Vader's only link to finding the hidden base. That would suggest that the Rebel spies that sent her the transmissions did not survive after Vader got to them. But he needed to go after Leia and the plans. Did he miss a few? If Biggs was on the mission , why not have a copy of the Death Star plans to deliver to Yavin once he got there?

 

[JoeZhang]

If there's anything that's missing from the narrative of the theatrical versions of Episodes IV and V, it's how Vader knows to be looking for Luke Skywalker, by name, by the start of the crawl of Episode V

That's easy - the big medal giving ceremony where they were surely named and the fact that simply people talk plus the rebels would like use his name for propaganda purposes - it wouldn't take long for the information that the pilot who blew up the Death Star was called "Luke Skywalker" - from that all else can follow.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If there's anything that's missing from the narrative of the theatrical versions of Episodes IV and V, it's how Vader knows to be looking for Luke Skywalker, by name, by the start of the crawl of Episode V

That's easy - the big medal giving ceremony where they were surely named and the fact that simply people talk plus the rebels would like use his name for propaganda purposes - it wouldn't take long for the information that the pilot who blew up the Death Star was called "Luke Skywalker" - from that all else can follow.

Yeah, I said something pretty similar.

Luke's secret was safe so long as he was a nobody on Tatooine, but now the cat's out of the bag. No later than the Death Star's destruction, and perhaps even before, word spreads about a younger Skywalker among the Rebellion, and it's only a matter of time before Imperial spies get word back to Vader.

It doesn't require a mastermind to figure out how word probably got out, but my point there was mainly simply that it wasn't on screen. It's significant because it raises the question of possible Imperial spies among the Rebels. There could be various micro-adventures between Eps. IV and V regarding just that. The transfer of the base from Yavin IV to Hoth probably entailed quite a few adventures regarding the Rebels covering their tracks and rooting out spies. It might actually be interesting, but it didn't serve the larger narrative, so it makes sense that it was glossed over in the startup of Ep. V.

I didn't mean that the way the restored deleted scene fleshed things out actually improved the narrative. I really don't like the scene with Red Leader, Biggs, and Luke at all. The dialog is awful, for one thing. For another, the acting isn't so hot, and were the scene really that important, there would have been more takes at various other angles. It was a throwaway scene that I think should have stayed, well, thrown away.

 

[JoeZhang]

It's significant because it raises the question of possible Imperial spies among the Rebels.

Ever war has had double-agents, spies and informers so why would this one be any different?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's significant because it raises the question of possible Imperial spies among the Rebels.

Ever war has had double-agents, spies and informers so why would this one be any different?

Lots of splosions, too, in war.

 

[Reverend]

As we saw in the films, it took until *after* the battle of Hoth for the name "Skywalker" to reach the Emperor (or at least, for him to get around to telling Vader) which by all accounts is several years after Yavin.
Based on Vader's reaction, he must have assumed (thanks to Palpatine's goading) that Padme died right there on Mustafar and "the baby" along with her.

One assumes there may be other Skywalkers out there, descended from siblings or cousins of Shimi, so the name may not be massively unusual.

No. It's established that Vader already knew about Luke prior to his conversation with the Emperor in at least two different ways. First of all, there's the opening crawl, as I already cited.

Secondly, when the fragment of the probe droid's report plays to Vader, he says that he is sure "Skywalker" is with the Rebels, dovetailing with and confirming that what the opening crawl says is literally true: Vader is searching for Luke prior to the Imperial fleet's arrival at Hoth.

I said at least two ways, and there really is a third. Vader chases after Falcon, evidently believing Luke to be aboard her, at least until it arrives at Bespin. It must have been Leia's presence that he sensed, and he merely confused it with Luke's.

Firstly, I don't think Vader gets read the opening crawl. Probably too busy trying to make sure his ship doesn't ram into the thing.

Secondly, in the current version of that conversation, it's clear this is news to Vader. On the other hand, in the original version, yeah it looks like Vader already knew about Luke.

As for chasing after the Falcon because he thinks Luke is aboard...it's possible I suppose, but there's nothing in the movie to indicate this.

A more likely scenario is that he recognised the Falcon as it blasted away from Echo base and surmised that Han and probably Leia are aboard.
Since he didn't find Luke in Echo base and probably sensed he'd left the system, those two became his best and only lead to finding Skywalker, hence throwing a whole fleet and half a dozen bounty hunters after them.

If as you suggest he confused Leia's presence with Luke's then why did this not occur previously? Leia had already been in Vader's presence several times, possibly even prior to her capture if her reactions and attitude are any indication. Also, in that scenario, he'd be on Bespin, still sensing that presence and would have instantly zeroed on Leia the second they stepped into the banquet room.
Anakin was never the sharpest vibroknife in the draw, but he's not a moron. At the very least he'd know he had a force sensitive on his hands and act accordingly. He didn't, therefore he didn't sense anything special from Leia and never did.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In every version of TESB, Vader says that he's sure Skywalker is with the Rebels, on seeing the fragment of the probe droid's report and ordering the fleet to Hoth, so that, in conjunction with what the opening crawl tells us about why Vader is launching thousands of probes, makes it a total non-starter in any version of the film that he doesn't already know about Luke by the time he converses with the Emperor.

Vader acting to the Emperor like Luke is news to him would be showing a false face to his master, and so would be evidence that Vader is considering turning against the Emperor already. In both versions, Vader maneuvers the Emperor into agreeing to his trying to save Luke. Maybe part of him is serious about ruling the galaxy as father and son. I like that diabolical angle, that Vader is not just straight up lying and tempting Luke with power, but rather that he is opening himself up to a possible, even if not very likely, future in which they do rule the galaxy as a father-son dark side master and apprentice.

As far as chasing after the Falcon is concerned, evidence that Vader is sensing something in the Force comes from his insistence that "they're alive," contradicting Captain Needa telling him via hologram that they must have been destroyed. That's right before Vader's ordered to make contact with the Emperor. Granted, it's weak evidence, and I wasn't offering it up as primary evidence that he already knows about the young Skywalker, since there's already enough evidence of that, but it's a facet of the film, nonetheless. I agree that Vader recognizes the ship from Ep. IV; he was standing directly beneath it/right beside it in hangar bay 327 on the Death Star. But he has feelings regarding it, too.

 

[Tulin]

Is there a number that needs to be reached or would "more female leads" suffice?

Would three female leads do the trick, or would there need to be four?

BTW I am not being sarcastic or attacking, I am genuinely curious.

There's no answer that would satisfy the truly looney left.

They're just NEVER happy.

On Friday night, I'm going to a local theatre production of "Steel Magnolias". I remember the poster from the film that featured the six women.

I'm sure there'd be a looney leftie who'd STILL be jumping up and down screaming it needs more women!

 

[Tulin]

Yeah, unless "Skywalker" is the GFFA equivalent of "Smith"

It's not.

According to Lucas himself, that is "Antilles".

 

[Reverend]

You know I'd actually forgotten about Vader's "I'm sure Skywalker is with them" line, so OK, I concede the point.

Strange that Lucas would introduce an implied contradiction there where none had previously existed. Sure, one could surmise that Vader was playing dumb but save for his trying to get Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor, nothing much really comes of it. Chalk it up to poor plotting I suppose, like that whole Sifo Dyas thing.

Another possibility is that up until that point, Vader had assumed that Luke was descended from a relative of Shmi. It would account for how he ended up with the Lars on Tatooine (assuming Vader even had that information), how Kenobi found him and his innate strength in the force.
The thought that Padme's child lived may not have occurred to him. Doesn't seem likely, but it's an outside possibility.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Just one more thing I forgot to mention. Vader is presumably sensing Luke from afar with the Force, when he sees the fragmentary probe droid report. Now, assuming that, then that dovetails with his insistence that whoever's aboard the Falcon is still alive in the asteroid field, despite the doubts of one or more of his officers. What I mean is, Vader's sensing of Luke on Hoth in that way would be part one to his continued sensing of what he's after on the Falcon. Going to Hoth on that feeling supports the idea that his feeling in pursuit of the Falcon is the same feeling, as far as he believes. That marginally strengthens the argument that he is confusing Leia for Luke.

I can't take credit for the idea that Vader confuses Leia for Luke in the Force in pursuit of the Falcon. That's actually an idea I read in a magazine years ago around when the film first came out. A Starlog maybe, possibly in David Gerrold's column, but I don't have a reference so that is in no way definite. But I think it's probably the right way to look at it.

There is possibly one other way to look at it that I've thought of, my outside possibility if you will. I have no definite reason to think it's the case, but it's an interesting possibility. Luke was near the probe when it crash landed on Hoth, so maybe the probe picked up some signature, possibly Luke's voice on the radio, since he and Han were talking over it at the time. Perhaps the probe report included a sign among its coded signals, maybe an icon on the display, that indicated detection of Luke, and maybe even of Han too!

Chalk it up to poor plotting I suppose, like that whole Sifo Dyas thing.

Ugh, yeah, I see what you mean.

 

[DWF]

You know I'd actually forgotten about Vader's "I'm sure Skywalker is with them" line, so OK, I concede the point.

Strange that Lucas would introduce an implied contradiction there where none had previously existed. Sure, one could surmise that Vader was playing dumb but save for his trying to get Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor, nothing much really comes of it. Chalk it up to poor plotting I suppose, like that whole Sifo Dyas thing.

I see no contratdiction implied or otherwise, it's obvious that Vader knows that Luke is his son and I thought it was pretty clear that Han was caught and torured to lure Luke to Besbin.

 

[Buck Bokai]

FWIW, the current Marvel comics have/are dealing with Vader finding out that the pilot's name was Skywalker via using bounty hunters. Information that he's not sharing with the Emperor.

 

[DWF]

FWIW, the current Marvel comics have/are dealing with Vader finding out that the pilot's name was Skywalker via using bounty hunters. Information that he's not sharing with the Emperor.

That reminds me of the original Marvel comic, where Vader found out about Luke from a cyborg bounty hunter just before he killed him.

 

[Turtletrekker]

^Nope, the bounty hunter, named Valance, chose death before giving up the info in Marvel's #27. Vader found out several issues later after torturing a rebel prisoner in issue 35.

 

[FPAlpha]

There's no way Red Leader could know that Luke was Anakin's son. As we all know that is a very closely guarded secret, something only Kenobi and Yoda knew about and Anakin/Darth Vader surely didn't know (come to think of it did Darth Vader know that Padme gave birth before she died and did he pursue/look for the children?).

Nah, I think it fits well enough.

If there's anything that's missing from the narrative of the theatrical versions of Episodes IV and V, it's how Vader knows to be looking for Luke Skywalker, by name, by the start of the crawl of Episode V ("The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space....").

Well, there's your answer, coming out of that deleted and restored scene.

To the Rebel base at Yavin IV, here comes a young man named Luke with a surname of Skywalker who had been accompanied by none other than Obi-Wan Kenobi and who had just helped rescue Princess Leia Organa, a young man who admits to being the son of the famous Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker (same family name), who Red Leader had once met.

Luke's secret was safe so long as he was a nobody on Tatooine, but now the cat's out of the bag. No later than the Death Star's destruction, and perhaps even before, word spreads about a younger Skywalker among the Rebellion, and it's only a matter of time before Imperial spies get word back to Vader. Granted, Vader would be interested in whomever it was who destroyed the Death Star, but he has a special interest in this person, one with whom the Force had been so strong in the battle.

To close this (in my opinion).. you were referring to Red Leader and Anakin Skywalker inferring that a) Red Leader knew Anakin Skywalker and b) correlating that Anakin and Luke were related and thus Luke had the same skill and leadership qualities that qualify him to lead the second trench run.

a) Red Leader was in his 40s i believe.. a huge stretch but he could have fought in the Clone Wars as a combat pilot AND given small universe trope he could have met Anakin when he was still a Jedi AND actually flown with him on combat missions (or just read some mission briefs mentioning his skill).

b) I really don't think he'd make that connection, much less base a command decision on the spot on such a flimsy connection just by knowing two people separated by decades and having the same family name

Vader himself didn't know about Luke at that time or he would not have tried to shoot him down, especially because there was no way of him actually identifying the enemy X-Wing pilot in his crosshairs. He just sensed that the pilot in front of him was strong in the force but that's not that unusual given that the Empire may have wiped out the Jedi but people would have still be born with an affinity to the Force, there just was no one around to teach them the ways of the Jedi (or if they were unfortunate some Empire operative may notice that person and "recruit" him).

Following the Battle of Yavin IV Luke's anonymity was blown in a spectacular war and it should have been comparatively easy for Vader to find out about the new celebrity pilot flying for the Rebellion (and to dot the i that boy came from Tatooine which certainly closed the matter for Vader).

 

[DWF]

^Nope, the bounty hunter, named Valance, chose death before giving up the info in Marvel's #27. Vader found out several issues later after torturing a rebel prisoner in issue 35.

My fault then, it has been a while I read those issues.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

To close this (in my opinion).. you were referring to Red Leader and Anakin Skywalker inferring that a) Red Leader knew Anakin Skywalker

I don't need to infer that, because he straight-up says he knew him. I would only need to infer that he was telling the truth.

and b) correlating that Anakin and Luke were related and thus Luke had the same skill and leadership qualities that qualify him to lead the second trench run.

Not what I said. Originally, I didn't even mention this scene as having a bearing. It was brought up by someone else. But I agreed, in light of it, that, when he made the decision for Luke to lead the third run, Red Leader may have seen something of Luke's father's skills in Luke, after seeing how he'd performed so far in battle. I never claimed that his estimation of Luke's abilities was based on his knowledge of the relation alone, and nor did I claim that that knowledge was even a major influence.

a) Red Leader was in his 40s i believe..

Was he? I have no idea, because it wasn't mentioned in the film. But if he were, that would have made him about Luke's age during TCW.

a huge stretch

So, no, seeing any kind of stretch here.

b) I really don't think he'd make that connection, much less base a command decision on the spot on such a flimsy connection just by knowing two people separated by decades and having the same family name

Yeah, neither do I, which is why I said otherwise.

Vader himself didn't know about Luke at that time or he would not have tried to shoot him down, especially because there was no way of him actually identifying the enemy X-Wing pilot in his crosshairs. He just sensed that the pilot in front of him was strong in the force but that's not that unusual given that the Empire may have wiped out the Jedi but people would have still be born with an affinity to the Force, there just was no one around to teach them the ways of the Jedi (or if they were unfortunate some Empire operative may notice that person and "recruit" him).

Agreed.

Following the Battle of Yavin IV Luke's anonymity was blown in a spectacular war and it should have been comparatively easy for Vader to find out about the new celebrity pilot flying for the Rebellion (and to dot the i that boy came from Tatooine which certainly closed the matter for Vader).

Also agreed. Never suggested it would be hard for him to find out. It's funny how people seem to be reading what I wrote as if I had.

 

[martok2112]

Of course none of this is gonna matter when we all become famous singers.