Rogue One (2016) [SW Anthology Series)

[Corran Horn]

I doubt there is much dishonor about being shot down by "the best star pilot in the galaxy".

Biggs and Wedge were both basically an extra set of rear shields for Luke in that situation. Wedge says as much in the Rogue Squadron novels.

Why Luke was flying point is probably a better question.

Red Leader ordered it: "Luke, take Red Two and Three. Hold up here and wait for my signal to start your run."

Why would he do that? It was supposed to be a computer-controlled attack that the least experienced pilot could handle just as well as the most experienced. Ergo, the best chance of overall success was to put the most experienced pilots on cover. You don't want green cover that the enemy fighters can quickly blast through to get to the leader.

Not disagreeing with your argument but it's Red Leader himself that takes the failed shot.

Story reasons notwithstanding it's possible his simulator run plus any memories Red Leader had of Anakin Skywalker (deleted scene) made him believe Luke had 'the right stuff'.

 

[dansigal]

Not that it even remotely matters but how many women actually serve in elite strike teams around the world?

I understand that women struggle to be recognized as equals in the world and i support that but why is there always complaining whenever someone thinks there are not enough women?

Do you really want writers to run through a checklist each time they write something so they don't exclude anyone and everybody gets their fair ratio and screen time?

So actually thinking about this a little more, the fact that the tv show Rebels has done such a good job establishing women rebels in the Star Wars universe makes that Rogue One cast photo even more egregious in my opinion.

 

[Reverend]

I don't disagree that on a larger scale, the gender balance in SW has been skewed, but I don't think it's fair to take 'Rogue One' to task for not single handedly rectifying it.

What we should be rather looking for is a general improvement in the overall trend, which is exactly what we *are* getting. Clone Wars, Rebels and now with the Force Awakens, we've seen an upward trend in diversity of both gender and ethnicity. Both in central and supporting roles.

Possibly the *worst* thing you can do with this sort of thing is to mandate it. Creating a story around the a premise like "we need a story with lots of women and non-Caucasians in it" is counter productive in the long run as it just leads to tokenisum.


As for Rogue One specifically: let's at least *try* and keep things in perspective here. That photo is hardly a comprehensive accounting of the movie's cast, it's not even all of the starring roles, much less the supporting. What if Mon Mothma has a prominent role in the movie? We don't know yet. What if the main Imperial antagonist (assuming it's not Whitaker) is female? I think some people are being a little premature for the sake of sheer histrionics.

 

[Richard Baker]

Stunt casting where you fill the roles based on a targeted demographic has ruined several films- most recently the new 'Fantastic Four' and cast (pun intended) serious doubt on the 'Ghostbusters' reboot.

 

[dansigal]

Stunt casting where you fill the roles based on a targeted demographic has ruined several films- most recently the new 'Fantastic Four' and cast (pun intended) serious doubt on the 'Ghostbusters' reboot.

Seriously? First, the fact that you consider either of those examples as stunt casting is probably at the heart of this entire issue. Four men get cast in a role, it's called casting, four women get cast in a role, it's stunt casting. Second, to say that Michael B. Jordan's casting in Fantastic Four ruined the movie is not only insulting, it's simply wrong. That movie had a billion things wrong with it, but a black human torch and an adopted rather than biological sibling relationship with Sue was not one of them. Third, if you or anyone else are having serious doubts about the new Ghostbusters (or any other movie for that matter) for no other reason than it has women cast in a role that traditionally goes to men, maybe you should take a look in the mirror and ask where the real problem is.

 

[FPAlpha]

Not that it even remotely matters but how many women actually serve in elite strike teams around the world?

I understand that women struggle to be recognized as equals in the world and i support that but why is there always complaining whenever someone thinks there are not enough women?

Do you really want writers to run through a checklist each time they write something so they don't exclude anyone and everybody gets their fair ratio and screen time?

So actually thinking about this a little more, the fact that the tv show Rebels has done such a good job establishing women rebels in the Star Wars universe makes that Rogue One cast photo even more egregious in my opinion.

Just to understand you even better.. could you give me a movie or TV show that has a good gender equality? I'd like to see what you consider as acceptable or good.

Personally the fact that a (young) woman is leading a team of (male) badasses against an entire Empire with one evil superpowered Enforcer speaks more to gender equality to me than anything else.. i don't care if the mechanic or weapons specialist is male or female or how the ratio is divided but that they chose a female character to lead a high testosterone group is nothing to scoff at.

It gives the macho guys pause if she can hold her own in the team (and i've no reason to believe they'll write her as daddy's girl who's the officer in charge of assembling the team and hands her command) and it gives girls an example to show that they can cut it too in a male dominated territory - possibly a positive role model.

 

[dansigal]

Not that it even remotely matters but how many women actually serve in elite strike teams around the world?

I understand that women struggle to be recognized as equals in the world and i support that but why is there always complaining whenever someone thinks there are not enough women?

Do you really want writers to run through a checklist each time they write something so they don't exclude anyone and everybody gets their fair ratio and screen time?

So actually thinking about this a little more, the fact that the tv show Rebels has done such a good job establishing women rebels in the Star Wars universe makes that Rogue One cast photo even more egregious in my opinion.

Just to understand you even better.. could you give me a movie or TV show that has a good gender equality? I'd like to see what you consider as acceptable or good.

Personally the fact that a (young) woman is leading a team of (male) badasses against an entire Empire with one evil superpowered Enforcer speaks more to gender equality to me than anything else.. i don't care if the mechanic or weapons specialist is male or female or how the ratio is divided but that they chose a female character to lead a high testosterone group is nothing to scoff at.

It gives the macho guys pause if she can hold her own in the team (and i've no reason to believe they'll write her as daddy's girl who's the officer in charge of assembling the team and hands her command) and it gives girls an example to show that they can cut it too in a male dominated territory - possibly a positive role model.

Just staying in genre, Star Wars Rebels, Arrow, Agents of SHIELD, Defiance, Buffy, Sense8

 

[Jedi_Master]

I'm not going to apologize for saying that Star Wars has done a shit job representing women on screen, because it's true.

So... any suggestions for improving that situation?

 

[martok2112]

Luke Skywalker: Well, time to go bullseye some womprats in my T-16.

C-3P0: My God, you kill small animals for fun?! That's the first signs of a serial killer!

Luke Skywalker: There's two suns and no women! What the hell am I supposed to do?!



---

Han Solo: Oh, look, there's another woman in this movie.

Princess Leia: (beat) I don't like her.

 

[dansigal]

I'm not going to apologize for saying that Star Wars has done a shit job representing women on screen, because it's true.

So... any suggestions for improving that situation?

Not exactly sure what you're looking for here, but have more female roles in their movies? Rebels is a great example of where Star Wars is doing it right.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Is there a number that needs to be reached or would "more female leads" suffice?

So for example in Star Wars VII there appear to be two female leads (Leia and Rey) with a female support character (Captain Phasma).

Would three female leads do the trick, or would there need to be four?

BTW I am not being sarcastic or attacking, I am genuinely curious.

Personally, I think that for a time an arbitrary standard should be imposed - a 1:1 or a 1:2 ratio of male and female leads per film, until enough female actresses are in the pipeline that people can get used to the idea of most films being split relatively equally between men and women. But that ideal is quite obviously unattainable through force and quotas, so I am at a loss as to the solution.

 

[dansigal]

I think the idea of a target number or a ratio doesn't really work. I don't think we need to demand 50/50 or any particular number, but at the end of the day, the cast shouldn't be so lopsided as to be so noticeable. It should pass the sniff test. A cast announcement/photo for Rogue One, with one female character among seven doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[Jedi_Master]

The problem with the sniff test is that we are all accustomed to smelling the sweet, sweet perfume of mostly male casts, so one or two female characters doesn't really smell all that odd.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Biggs and Wedge were both basically an extra set of rear shields for Luke in that situation. Wedge says as much in the Rogue Squadron novels.

Why Luke was flying point is probably a better question.

Red Leader ordered it: "Luke, take Red Two and Three. Hold up here and wait for my signal to start your run."

Why would he do that? It was supposed to be a computer-controlled attack that the least experienced pilot could handle just as well as the most experienced. Ergo, the best chance of overall success was to put the most experienced pilots on cover. You don't want green cover that the enemy fighters can quickly blast through to get to the leader.

Not disagreeing with your argument but it's Red Leader himself that takes the failed shot.

Story reasons notwithstanding it's possible his simulator run plus any memories Red Leader had of Anakin Skywalker (deleted scene) made him believe Luke had 'the right stuff'.

I agree with all that, too.

The failed shot came after the decision for Luke to lead the next run, an order that Red Leader didn't change after he missed.

As I mentioned before in my next post, it probably wasn't just the simulator, but, as the actual battle was playing out, Luke was doing well enough, something that Red Leader would have been aware of.

I wasn't counting the restored deleted scene (I've still seen the theatrical version so many times more than the SE, and frankly much of my thoughts come from watching that version), but you're right that memories of Anakin probably also influenced Red Leader's decision. Perhaps he saw something of Anakin's abilities in Luke.

I was thinking after my second post that leadership qualities were also a factor, which you seem to be hitting on. Red Leader could no doubt see that Luke was a natural leader, given everything that was going down that Luke had been instrumental in. Maybe Red Leader overheard Luke's remark about bullseyeing womp rats, also a remark from a natural leader. You'd want someone there who the wingmen would want to defend.

Obviously, Luke is taking the shot because he's the hero of the film, but I think it works well enough on other levels that it doesn't come across as forced (ha ha). YMMV.

 

[wulfio]

It's not a numbers thing... In my opinion anyway. Anyone who thinks the fight is for equal representation doesn't really get feminism. It's equal opportunity: politically, socially, economically. It does not denote that we need to have 50% enlistment in our special forces for example. There is a distinct difference between opportunity and representation.

What we need in media is well written, believable, strong female protagonists. It means having women that aren't damsels who's presence generally is only required to serve the development of the male protagonist. It's about strong women who command respect and loyalty of those around her. And the aforementioned issue is the trope in film/tv still to this day. It's not that we need to have more women in a war movie.

That's just how I see it though. The whole idea of "whatever you can do I can do" is silly to me. I think it shows someone who doesn't grasp the concept of feminism. The fact that there are no women in the NHL or NFL has nothing to do with sexism.

 

[JD]

So actually thinking about this a little more, the fact that the tv show Rebels has done such a good job establishing women rebels in the Star Wars universe makes that Rogue One cast photo even more egregious in my opinion.

Just to understand you even better.. could you give me a movie or TV show that has a good gender equality? I'd like to see what you consider as acceptable or good.

Personally the fact that a (young) woman is leading a team of (male) badasses against an entire Empire with one evil superpowered Enforcer speaks more to gender equality to me than anything else.. i don't care if the mechanic or weapons specialist is male or female or how the ratio is divided but that they chose a female character to lead a high testosterone group is nothing to scoff at.

It gives the macho guys pause if she can hold her own in the team (and i've no reason to believe they'll write her as daddy's girl who's the officer in charge of assembling the team and hands her command) and it gives girls an example to show that they can cut it too in a male dominated territory - possibly a positive role model.

Just staying in genre, Star Wars Rebels, Arrow, Agents of SHIELD, Defiance, Buffy, Sense8

Teen Wolf also has a pretty good proportion of guys to girls in the main and supporting cast too. In the main cast we have/had Alison, Kira, Lydia, Malia and if we throw in recurring characters there's Scott's mom, Erica, Kira's mom, Braeden and Hayden.

I'm not going to apologize for saying that Star Wars has done a shit job representing women on screen, because it's true.

So... any suggestions for improving that situation?

Not exactly sure what you're looking for here, but have more female roles in their movies? Rebels is a great example of where Star Wars is doing it right.

Is there a number that needs to be reached or would "more female leads" suffice?

So for example in Star Wars VII there appear to be two female leads (Leia and Rey) with a female support character (Captain Phasma).

Would three female leads do the trick, or would there need to be four?

BTW I am not being sarcastic or attacking, I am genuinely curious.

Personally, I think that for a time an arbitrary standard should be imposed - a 1:1 or a 1:2 ratio of male and female leads per film, until enough female actresses are in the pipeline that people can get used to the idea of most films being split relatively equally between men and women. But that ideal is quite obviously unattainable through force and quotas, so I am at a loss as to the solution.

I was disappointed when I saw that Felicity Jones was the only woman in the main cast, but it does help a little bit that she is the lead. I was hoping there would have been at least one or two more women in the cast.
I don't really think we should try to force very movie to have an equal cast, but as long as the story allows it, it would definitely be nice if they could work more women into these kinds of movies. I understand that sometimes a movie is just about a situation where there really would be women involved, or a story reason for the cast to be mostly men. As far as I know neither of those apply here, so there really is no reason we couldn't have at least one more woman in the main cast. Hopefully we'll get more women in the supporting cast.

 

[FPAlpha]

I wasn't counting the restored deleted scene (I've still seen the theatrical version so many times more than the SE, and frankly much of my thoughts come from watching that version), but you're right that memories of Anakin probably also influenced Red Leader's decision. Perhaps he saw something of Anakin's abilities in Luke.

There's no way Red Leader could know that Luke was Anakin's son. As we all know that is a very closely guarded secret, something only Kenobi and Yoda knew about and Anakin/Darth Vader surely didn't know (come to think of it did Darth Vader know that Padme gave birth before she died and did he pursue/look for the children?).

As the Rebel assault on the first Death Star was quite small single actions were much more noticeable and they were desperate.. Luke has shown he can handle his ship and made some good tactical decisions so it's not unbelievable to be given command on the spot as they were in a fight for their lives and there was no time for lengthy debates or evaluations.

Of course the movies often played it loose with the timelines, especially the original trilogy and i doubt Lucas ever had so many thoughts about it like we do but what the hell

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There's no way Red Leader could know that Luke was Anakin's son. As we all know that is a very closely guarded secret, something only Kenobi and Yoda knew about and Anakin/Darth Vader surely didn't know (come to think of it did Darth Vader know that Padme gave birth before she died and did he pursue/look for the children?).

Nah, I think it fits well enough.

If there's anything that's missing from the narrative of the theatrical versions of Episodes IV and V, it's how Vader knows to be looking for Luke Skywalker, by name, by the start of the crawl of Episode V ("The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space....").

Well, there's your answer, coming out of that deleted and restored scene.

To the Rebel base at Yavin IV, here comes a young man named Luke with a surname of Skywalker who had been accompanied by none other than Obi-Wan Kenobi and who had just helped rescue Princess Leia Organa, a young man who admits to being the son of the famous Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker (same family name), who Red Leader had once met.

Luke's secret was safe so long as he was a nobody on Tatooine, but now the cat's out of the bag. No later than the Death Star's destruction, and perhaps even before, word spreads about a younger Skywalker among the Rebellion, and it's only a matter of time before Imperial spies get word back to Vader. Granted, Vader would be interested in whomever it was who destroyed the Death Star, but he has a special interest in this person, one with whom the Force had been so strong in the battle.

 

[Corran Horn]

Yeah, unless "Skywalker" is the GFFA equivalent of "Smith" it's not too much of a stretch. Luke certainly knew his father's name. No reason he couldn't have told it to someone who knew him from the CW.

 

[Reverend]

As we saw in the films, it took until *after* the battle of Hoth for the name "Skywalker" to reach the Emperor (or at least, for him to get around to telling Vader) which by all accounts is several years after Yavin.
Based on Vader's reaction, he must have assumed (thanks to Palpatine's goading) that Padme died right there on Mustafar and "the baby" along with her.

One assumes there may be other Skywalkers out there, descended from siblings or cousins of Shimi, so the name may not be massively unusual.