What is Star Trek and its future?

[Nerys Myk]

The point was that the show would of had a much greater audience if it was made 10 years later.

Not if it had been the same show. Much of Deep Space Nine was simply dull. They could hit it out of the park from time to time, but overall, it was just dull.

I'm a fan of DS9, it's my second favorite Trek, but I don't think transporting it to 2004 would make it a more popular show,either.

 

[Autistoid]

The point was that the show would of had a much greater audience if it was made 10 years later.

Not if it had been the same show. Much of Deep Space Nine was simply dull. They could hit it out of the park from time to time, but overall, it was just dull.

I attibute that in large part to having way to many dam episodes.

My biggest gripe with people that don't like DS9 is that it's oh so rare for people to actually watch a selected viewings of the series.

 

[Autistoid]

Are you actually saying that DS9 was a pioneer in these things?

I'm saying it was ahead of it's time.

Pioneering is a meaningless word.

However if you wanna name any show with a budget and scale that was similiar to DS9's I'd love to here it.

The comparison to B5 and the like is a total joke.

I don't think for a second anyone would confuse B5 with elements that can be found in shows like the wire.

However contrasting DS9 to a show like the wire and there are a ton of direct parraelells in the two shows.

No it wasn't. There were several award winning show before it that were doing those things earlier and better. The aforementioned Hill St Blues as well as St. Elsewhere and LA Law. Shows like ER and the Sopranos that were contemporaneous with DS9 were also doing it better. DS9 was in the middle of the pack when to comes to the development of the serial weekly drama as a driving force in TV. One could argue it was only half-heartedly a serial drama. It kept one foot in the episodic format.

Sopranos only started while DS9 was at it's very end.

All the other shows you listed may have been serialized but none of which produced the shorter series format that has become the norm.

It wasn't just that DS9 did episodes in order my point is that the series would of really hit its stride if it didn't have to produce 26 episodes a season.

I don't see how any of the other shows you listed as being so way taylored to a shortened season.

 

[BillJ]

My biggest gripe with people that don't like DS9 is that it's oh so rare for people to actually watch a selected viewings of the series.

Which is non-sense. Most people don't have time to go back through 178 episodes. I only watch about twenty-five to thirty select episodes.

You're saying, "its a great show, if you ignore a lot of it". You'd be quite the salesman.

 

[Autistoid]

My biggest gripe with people that don't like DS9 is that it's oh so rare for people to actually watch a selected viewings of the series.

Which is non-sense. Most people don't have time to go back through 178 episodes. I only watch about twenty-five to thirty select episodes.

You're saying, "its a great show, if you ignore a lot of it". You'd be quite the salesman.

DS9 is clearly a victim of it's format, it's not rocket science.

There's very few shows that could blatantly have such a similiar problem.

 

[Brainsucker]

DS9 is a good TV series, and I enjoyed it

Btw, the originality of DS9 is no longer inside the context of our thread. We discuss about what is Star Trek, and it's future, not about the originality of DS9 concept. It is about whether DS9 should be considered as Star Trek or not. Well, it is Star Trek DS9, not Star Trek. So I leave that interpretation to everyone here.

So what is Star Trek?

I'll repeat something that I've written in another thread.
There is a franchise from Japan that has comparable in term of popularity with Star Trek. They call it Gundam. Just like Star Trek, they have a lot of series that told about a lot of different story. Some is good, the others just simply bad. Maybe many of us in this forum doesn't know about Gundam, as it is an animation series. A cartoon (although they have a live action movie). Although they are cartoon that aim older audience (older than the other Japanese Animation / cartoon), but people still consider cartoon as kid show.

Well, when Star Trek has several series in her franchise, like TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, Gundam has a lot more series than Star Trek. Span from their original universe that they call Universal Century, to many alternate universe that has no correlation with their original universe, the UC. But it's work; and these alternate universe still considered as Gundam, and they have their own fans, although some of UC hardcore fans hate them.

So why Star Trek afraid to expand themselves to the unknown? Make an alternate universe. If it's good, they can gather new fans. For the hardcore original universe / prime universe, they still can throw some prime universe sometime. So why not? It's a win-win solution for us all.

 

[BillJ]

DS9 is clearly a victim of it's format, it's not rocket science.

Of course it was.

I'm sure fans of Voyager and Enterprise can point to all kinds of reasons those shows failed.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm saying it was ahead of it's time.

Pioneering is a meaningless word.

However if you wanna name any show with a budget and scale that was similiar to DS9's I'd love to here it.

The comparison to B5 and the like is a total joke.

I don't think for a second anyone would confuse B5 with elements that can be found in shows like the wire.

However contrasting DS9 to a show like the wire and there are a ton of direct parraelells in the two shows.

No it wasn't. There were several award winning show before it that were doing those things earlier and better. The aforementioned Hill St Blues as well as St. Elsewhere and LA Law. Shows like ER and the Sopranos that were contemporaneous with DS9 were also doing it better. DS9 was in the middle of the pack when to comes to the development of the serial weekly drama as a driving force in TV. One could argue it was only half-heartedly a serial drama. It kept one foot in the episodic format.

Sopranos only started while DS9 was at it's very end.

All the other shows you listed may have been serialized but none of which produced the shorter series format that has become the norm.

It wasn't just that DS9 did episodes in order my point is that the series would of really hit its stride if it didn't have to produce 26 episodes a season.

I don't see how any of the other shows you listed as being so way taylored to a shortened season.

DS9 didn't have the shorter season either. So I'm not sure what the point of bring up the shorter season common today is.

 

[wulfio]

Space: Above and Beyond!

 

[Autistoid]

Space: Above and Beyond!

Do you acknowledge quality exists?


If so do you not see the glaring void in quality levels.

 

[BillJ]

DS9 didn't have the shorter season either. So I'm not sure what the point of bring up the shorter season common today is.

I love the logic being presented here: if you got rid of all the filler and bad episodes, then it would've been more successful.

No producer, writer or director green lights something thinking, "boy, this is going to be shit".

 

[wulfio]

Space: Above and Beyond!

Do you acknowledge quality exists?


If so do you not see the glaring void in quality levels.

You're saying there is a major gap in quality between DS9 and S:A&B?

I'm not going to pile on here. You're fighting enough battles.

 

[Autistoid]

No it wasn't. There were several award winning show before it that were doing those things earlier and better. The aforementioned Hill St Blues as well as St. Elsewhere and LA Law. Shows like ER and the Sopranos that were contemporaneous with DS9 were also doing it better. DS9 was in the middle of the pack when to comes to the development of the serial weekly drama as a driving force in TV. One could argue it was only half-heartedly a serial drama. It kept one foot in the episodic format.

Sopranos only started while DS9 was at it's very end.

All the other shows you listed may have been serialized but none of which produced the shorter series format that has become the norm.

It wasn't just that DS9 did episodes in order my point is that the series would of really hit its stride if it didn't have to produce 26 episodes a season.

I don't see how any of the other shows you listed as being so way taylored to a shortened season.

DS9 didn't have the shorter season either. So I'm not sure what the point of bring up the shorter season common today is.

The point is DS9 would of easily worked in the modern format for television.

Everything about it, made it exceptionally hard to work in the 90s, with 26 episodes seasons with an audience that couldn't watch it in binges.

Yet all the features of DS9 made it exceptionally comparable to what has become the norm for upper tier television.

 

[Nerys Myk]

DS9 didn't have the shorter season either. So I'm not sure what the point of bring up the shorter season common today is.

I love the logic being presented here: if you got rid of all the filler and bad episodes, then it would've been more successful.

No producer, writer or director green lights something thinking, "boy, this is going to be shit".

I'm still trying to figure where DS9 was ahead of it's time. It didn't bring anything new to serial drama. It didn't spearhead the short season.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sopranos only started while DS9 was at it's very end.

All the other shows you listed may have been serialized but none of which produced the shorter series format that has become the norm.

It wasn't just that DS9 did episodes in order my point is that the series would of really hit its stride if it didn't have to produce 26 episodes a season.

I don't see how any of the other shows you listed as being so way taylored to a shortened season.

DS9 didn't have the shorter season either. So I'm not sure what the point of bring up the shorter season common today is.

The point is DS9 would of easily worked in the modern format for television.

Everything about it, made it exceptionally hard to work in the 90s, with 26 episodes seasons with an audience that couldn't watch it in binges.

Yet all the features of DS9 made it exceptionally comparable to what has become the norm for upper tier television.

None of which will make it more popular than it was.

 

[Autistoid]

DS9 didn't have the shorter season either. So I'm not sure what the point of bring up the shorter season common today is.

I love the logic being presented here: if you got rid of all the filler and bad episodes, then it would've been more successful.

No producer, writer or director green lights something thinking, "boy, this is going to be shit".

I'm still trying to figure where DS9 was ahead of it's time. It didn't bring anything new to serial drama. It didn't spearhead the short season.

I never once said anything about originality.

It was blatantly copying off many different things.

However it's the fact that it intergrated many different elements in a time when it wasn't the norm.

Large story arks, a focus on multi dimension characters, large casts of character actors, large bugdets(which actually do matter), and it was clearly a show that would of benefitted a shortened season.

 

[BillJ]

The point is DS9 would of easily worked in the modern format for television.

So could Voyager and Enterprise. Anything can be reworked to fit into whatever the current TV format is. Heck, J. Michael Straczynski wanted to rework TOS into a serialized format...

http://bztv.typepad.com/newsviews/files/ST2004Reboot.pdf

 

[Autistoid]

DS9 didn't have the shorter season either. So I'm not sure what the point of bring up the shorter season common today is.

The point is DS9 would of easily worked in the modern format for television.

Everything about it, made it exceptionally hard to work in the 90s, with 26 episodes seasons with an audience that couldn't watch it in binges.

Yet all the features of DS9 made it exceptionally comparable to what has become the norm for upper tier television.

None of which will make it more popular than it was.

Well this is the part that is opinion.

However if I had to bet money the series that fitted the format of their times generally tend to do better.

 

[BillJ]

Large story arks, a focus on multi dimension characters, large casts of character actors, large bugdets(which actually do matter), and it was clearly a show that would of benefitted a shortened season.

It wouldn't have benefited from a shortened season. Those big budgets were paid for with those 26 annual episodes.

 

[Autistoid]

The point is DS9 would of easily worked in the modern format for television.

So could Voyager and Enterprise. Anything can be reworked to fit into whatever the current TV format is. Heck, J. Michael Straczynski wanted to rework TOS into a serialized format...

http://bztv.typepad.com/newsviews/files/ST2004Reboot.pdf

Logic failure.

The degree of rework for DS9 compared to Voyager is comical.

Ignoring the fact that Voyager had the reset button, the character tones, and the fact there was no over reaching plots.

DS9 could be remade with minimal reworking. Other than updating production standards the entire series could be copied nearly by the episode.

Essentially everything about voyager would have to be redone.


EDIT: FYI I think rebooting any of those series would be a good idea.