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Vulcan Breeding Stock

Sure, we can connect the dots with a straight line. But that would be lazy. Why should we assume there isn't a Vulcan organization interested in investigating exciting space phenomena? We already know Vulcans conduct research on their own, wholly separate from Starfleet - Spock was a traitor for not joining the Vulcan Science Academy.

Making Spock The First takes some doing, but there's so much groundwork already done on making him vewy, vewy special that it might be worth the effort. It is only with this in mind that we may further consider that the Intrepid really is no obstacle.

Indeed, it might be fun to make Spock The First. All the others in the crew are pronouncedly mundane - a farmboy at the center chair, nobodies at secondary positions, a former civilian engineer at the boilers, a country doctor patching them up. Contrast this to the E-D where everybody is a celebrity, save perhaps for the skipper himself!

Timo Saloniemi
Well I suppose "making shit up" is a legitimate approach. As is jumping from point A to banana. And I'm not opposed to thinking outside of the box. But when you've jumped into a different box, that's on a train in a different country, traveling away from the original box at breakneck speed I tend to throw up my arms.
 
How is any of that applicable here? Spock is the poster child of utterly unpredictable and implausible character development twists - being The First would be absolutely mundane and expected in comparison with suddenly being emotionless; suddenly being half human; suddenly being married; suddenly being crazy with lust every seven years; suddenly being the son of the Ambassador; suddenly being a touch telepath; etc.

All of Star Trek consists of making shit up. Much of it consists of stealing somebody else's ideas and putting them on screen. This First in Starfleet thing is popular stuff to steal. And Vulcans in general are prime material for this: several baseless misconceptions about them have later been established as solid onscreen fact, sometimes after gathering momentum in the novels.

I guess the bottom line is that Spock is a shoddily written bunch of cliches that Nimoy made us all love. The more cliches, the better his "straight man" act works against all that nonsense. And here we have a cliche to top them all - for all we know, Spock single-handedly made Starfleet abandon a recruitment policy of absolute racial purity...

Timo Saloniemi
 
How is any of that applicable here? Spock is the poster child of utterly unpredictable and implausible character development twists - being The First would be absolutely mundane and expected in comparison with suddenly being emotionless; suddenly being half human; suddenly being married; suddenly being crazy with lust every seven years; suddenly being the son of the Ambassador; suddenly being a touch telepath; etc.

All of Star Trek consists of making shit up. Much of it consists of stealing somebody else's ideas and putting them on screen. This First in Starfleet thing is popular stuff to steal. And Vulcans in general are prime material for this: several baseless misconceptions about them have later been established as solid onscreen fact, sometimes after gathering momentum in the novels.

I guess the bottom line is that Spock is a shoddily written bunch of cliches that Nimoy made us all love. The more cliches, the better his "straight man" act works against all that nonsense. And here we have a cliche to top them all - for all we know, Spock single-handedly made Starfleet abandon a recruitment policy of absolute racial purity...

Timo Saloniemi

All of the above (except him being suddenly married) is canon. Being the first Vulcan in Starfleet is not canon but a Starfleet ship manned entirely by Vulcans is canon which suggests a Captain who has served longer than Spock. It's fun to say that Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet and it's a nice idea but the only evidence available suggests otherwise.
 
It's a process, is all. The pon farr thing was built out of small pieces, most of which still don't fit - but the last ones were introduced in ENT, more than a quarter of a century after the first ones. And those pieces were noncanon misconceptions finally canonized.

Making Spock The First is a possible and, all things considered, plausible and consistent development of the character. It's something that is yet to happen. And I'm not really hoping for it to happen, as it's also profoundly silly. But so are most things about Spock.

Yet really - what happens to T'Pol when United Earth Starfleet becomes part of UFP Starfleet? She shows no signs of parting ways with her human chums, professionally or emotionally. Why wouldn't she be the first Vulcan in UFP Starfleet, with dozens to follow ASAP as they see the logic of it all? Basically, we need to speculate on a major development that prevents all this, such as the sudden death of a main character, and that's very different from idly noting that the Intrepid need not have been in any way related to Starfleet.

We could certainly and trivially see Vulcan interest in offworld affairs waxing and waning, so that Spock in the 2260s is again alone in Starfleet, and only 10,000 survive the loss of the planet. But that wouldn't yet make Spock The First.

Timo Saloniemi
 
It's possible the Intrepid was crewed by Vulcans who didn't go through Star Fleet Academy. It may have been a ship given over to the Vulcans as part of some old agreement.

So, in Starfleet, but not necessarily before Spock.
 
^ Vulcan is a member of the Federation, so why would they need separate ships outside of their own planetary system?

It's understandable if it's a part of the local Vulcan defense fleet, but the Intrepid was far from Vulcan space when it was destroyed, so that obviously wasn't the case.
 
maybe they would do a lot of test tube babies, nothing like KAHN, or cloning, but just good old fashion, IVF
 
Intrepid might have been gifted to the Vulcans at a later date than Spock's entry into Starfleet. Or it was completed after he entered Starfleet and was the first Starfleet vessel to be given over to Vulcan for integrated services. The new Constitutions being more capable that the ships the Vulcans used up to that point. It taking nearly a hundred years before an Earth designed ship, using combined Federation technology, finally surpassed Vulcan designs. Meaning the Vulcan crew had been in Vulcan state service until Intrepid was introduced into their forces, at which point the integration was more complete, and this Starfleet ship, fully crewed by Vulcans can set off on its own Five Year Mission. That last part of the assumption was that the starships with 400 or so crew were on Five Year Missions as oppose to the Pike era ships with half that that might have been on some other sort of mission, or at least not as long term a mission set.
 
There's no evidence, I'm aware of, that says Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet.

Evidence from "The Immunity Syndrome" would seem to contradict the "first Vulcan in Starfleet" stuff, as we have the Intrepid crewed with 400 Vulcans.

Yeah, the "first Vulcan in Starfleet" business is a bit of fanon that was NEVER established onscreen.

It's a myth.

And the presence of the all Vulcan crew on the Intrepid is not fanon. So that is "case closed." Explanations just become rationalization of long-standing fanon.

Given how insular Vulcan culture could be, as well as clannish, it could be that what made Spock unique in Starfleet is he was a Vulcan who chose to serve predominantly with humans. It could be by his time, Vulcans were still not fully comfortable integrating with humans in daily life. This could also explain why Spock was treated as someone rather exotic and misunderstood by the Enterprise crew, even Kirk and McCoy.

Spock's choice to mingle with human culture would dovetail with Sarek's career and his human mother, too.

If I had to find a middle ground, I would say Sarek's disappointment with Spock going to the Academy in TOS was like a famous Yalie seeing his son go off to Harvard.

In ST09, I'd say Sarek had to be embarrassed at the High Council and a little bit proud that his son responded the way he did to them.

In ST09, it seems to be taken that Spock's application to the Academy was perfunctory, and in Spock's case, unnecessary. In both timelines, the Academy could've been seen as a "safety school" for Vulcans applying to their science academy. A place to go in case they can't get into their first choice. Since Spock was more than qualified to enter the Vulcan Science Academy, it was illogical for him to choose an inferior safety school. That could've been what made Sarek mad in TOS, too -- Spock's choice of school was illogical. In ST09, he chose it, well, out of spite. Not logical, but Sarek would have to be more understanding in that case.
 
As for T'Pol not serving in Starfleet during the time of the Federation. Well she was nearly at the standard forced retirement age of 75. She would be 73 in 2161.
 
^ But surely by Trek's time, retirement age wouldn't be that low? IIRC, it's considered the prime of life for humans that far in the future.
 
^ But surely by Trek's time, retirement age wouldn't be that low? IIRC, it's considered the prime of life for humans that far in the future.

Probably one of those things that should be tossed because it doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
[...]

If I had to find a middle ground, I would say Sarek's disappointment with Spock going to the Academy in TOS was like a famous Yalie seeing his son go off to Harvard.
Along similar lines:

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLemMfdj7j8[/yt]
 
^ Vulcan is a member of the Federation, so why would they need separate ships outside of their own planetary system?

It's understandable if it's a part of the local Vulcan defense fleet, but the Intrepid was far from Vulcan space when it was destroyed, so that obviously wasn't the case.

Intrepid might have been gifted to the Vulcans at a later date than Spock's entry into Starfleet. Or it was completed after he entered Starfleet and was the first Starfleet vessel to be given over to Vulcan for integrated services. The new Constitutions being more capable that the ships the Vulcans used up to that point. It taking nearly a hundred years before an Earth designed ship, using combined Federation technology, finally surpassed Vulcan designs. Meaning the Vulcan crew had been in Vulcan state service until Intrepid was introduced into their forces, at which point the integration was more complete, and this Starfleet ship, fully crewed by Vulcans can set off on its own Five Year Mission. That last part of the assumption was that the starships with 400 or so crew were on Five Year Missions as oppose to the Pike era ships with half that that might have been on some other sort of mission, or at least not as long term a mission set.

Vulcans in the Federation doesn't necessarily mean Vulcans in Starfleet (and the Academy). Perhaps the only way to entice them into Starfleet was to let them have a ship to themselves.

Spock being half human makes him a different case, and if ST09 was any indication, it was done out of rebelliousness.
 
Spock being half human makes him a different case, and if ST09 was any indication, it was done out of rebelliousness.

Considering that Sarek hadn't talked to Spock for years, according to Journey to Babel, Spock probably joined Starfleet out of rebelliousness in TOS, too.

~FS
 
How is any of that applicable here?
All of it is. If you want to support the idea of Spock being the first Vulcan you need to start explaining away things.

Like, Vulcan being a member of the Federation. If Starfleet is an arm of the Federation it makes sense that there would be Vulcans in Starfleet. If they are a member in long standing, even more so.

And The Intrepid, which from the dialog is a Starfleet ship manned by Vulcans. Why else would Starfleet assign it to investigate the "disappearance" of a solar system. Doesn't seem like the sort of assignment given a random Vulcan ship. More like a job for a ship with multi-mission capabilities.The disappearance could be a natural disaster, a military attack or something else. Right in Starfleet's wheelhouse, The ship has a Terran origin name. Why would a Vulcan ship have a Terran name, especially one like "Intrepid"? Then there's the fact Kirk knows the ship is manned by Vulcans. Why, out of all the ships civilian, commercial and military, currently cruising the Galaxy would Kirk know the crew make up of the Intrepid, if it wasn't a sister vessel of some kind?

Spock is the poster child of utterly unpredictable and implausible character development twists - being The First would be absolutely mundane and expected in comparison with suddenly being emotionless; suddenly being half human; suddenly being married; suddenly being crazy with lust every seven years; suddenly being the son of the Ambassador; suddenly being a touch telepath; etc.
It's called being a fictional character on a weekly TV show needing to create drama. Daily Soaps put their characters through more in a month :lol:

All of Star Trek consists of making shit up. Much of it consists of stealing somebody else's ideas and putting them on screen. This First in Starfleet thing is popular stuff to steal. And Vulcans in general are prime material for this: several baseless misconceptions about them have later been established as solid onscreen fact, sometimes after gathering momentum in the novels.
By people whose job it is to make shit up for Star Trek. When one of them does it, it's different than some fan taking twists and turns to make it so.

I guess the bottom line is that Spock is a shoddily written bunch of cliches that Nimoy made us all love. The more cliches, the better his "straight man" act works against all that nonsense. And here we have a cliche to top them all - for all we know, Spock single-handedly made Starfleet abandon a recruitment policy of absolute racial purity...
All we know is what we see on the show. The rest is less than speculation. The themes of the show alone would make such a scenario unlikely.
 
^ Vulcan is a member of the Federation, so why would they need separate ships outside of their own planetary system? It's understandable if it's a part of the local Vulcan defense fleet, but the Intrepid was far from Vulcan space when it was destroyed, so that obviously wasn't the case.
Umm, I'd argue the exact opposite. Vulcans would have little interest in operating warships of their own (no expansionist aims, the Federation defends them already), but they would wish to conduct research their own way, they way it ought to be done.

And the presence of the all Vulcan crew on the Intrepid is not fanon.
But the idea that the Intrepid would be a Starfleet vessel, and/or the same ship mentioned in "Court Martial", is fanon.

As for T'Pol not serving in Starfleet during the time of the Federation. Well she was nearly at the standard forced retirement age of 75. She would be 73 in 2161.
Good point - April in TAS made clear that this was the retirement age for humans, at least in the 2260s. Would Vulcans have any truck with such limits, though?

If you want to support the idea of Spock being the first Vulcan you need to start explaining away things.
I need to do that in any case, as TOS is a jumbled mess to start with. Heck, that's how quite a few Trek novels came to be! Or some later TOS episodes, for that matter.

Like, Vulcan being a member of the Federation. If Starfleet is an arm of the Federation it makes sense that there would be Vulcans in Starfleet. If they are a member in long standing, even more so.
So where are they? Explain that to me. And while you are at it, explain where the Tellarites are. Not in Starfleet - the possible one in "Lights of Zetar" was a civilian researcher.

"Makes sense" is just fan rationalization at its worst, because Star Trek is fantastic, i.e. most of it runs counter to common sense. "Is allowed by the weirdness established onscreen" is what we should be concerned with, and Spock being The First is part of that category.

Why else would Starfleet assign it to investigate the "disappearance" of a solar system.
Nowhere in the episode is it suggested that Starfleet assigned it to investigate a disappearance. Rather, Starfleet relayed the news that the Intrepid had reported the disappearance.

Right in Starfleet's wheelhouse, The ship has a Terran origin name.
Hardly. It had a name meaning "fearless". Which might be odd for Vulcans at first sight, but absolutely true in the humorless fashion the Vulcans are famous for. All sorts of aliens get their ship names translated - the Remans famously had one named Scimitar, remember? Or if you are going to argue it was in fact the Shi'm'torr, then this baby of course is the N'tropot...

Then there's the fact Kirk knows the ship is manned by Vulcans.
Well, Spock usually knows everything about everything. Makes sense Kirk would know about things important to Spock, at this late stage of the game - the fact that he didn't know has come to bite him several times already.

All we know is what we see on the show. The rest is less than speculation.
Well, not a tad less. And as established, fan speculation rather often becomes canon fact. So it's just a process, and Spock being The First is an entirely possible outcome at this point.

The themes of the show alone would make such a scenario unlikely.
What themes? As shown, Spock is speeeeeecial. Like all great heroes, he just doesn't make a fuss about it. Moreover, he's the designated speeeeeecial person in TOS, the forte of the other lead being that he triumphs despite being ordinary. It's well established that Vulcans are not trusted or well known, facts speaking in favor of them being rare in Starfleet. It's a trivially small stem from there to saying that Spock is the only one so far, and an even smaller one to say that he was the first even if others have since followed.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Wasn't Tuvok 212 years old in Voyager when Capt. Janeway gave him the birthday cake? And nowhere near retirement (Or at least 112?)
 
Sure, we can connect the dots with a straight line. But that would be lazy. Why should we assume there isn't a Vulcan organization interested in investigating exciting space phenomena? We already know Vulcans conduct research on their own, wholly separate from Starfleet - Spock was a traitor for not joining the Vulcan Science Academy.

Making Spock The First takes some doing, but there's so much groundwork already done on making him vewy, vewy special that it might be worth the effort. It is only with this in mind that we may further consider that the Intrepid really is no obstacle.

Indeed, it might be fun to make Spock The First. All the others in the crew are pronouncedly mundane - a farmboy at the center chair, nobodies at secondary positions, a former civilian engineer at the boilers, a country doctor patching them up. Contrast this to the E-D where everybody is a celebrity, save perhaps for the skipper himself!

Timo Saloniemi

... I'd be willing to bet that he is the first half human / half Vulcan to be in Starfleet... and that references to "first" are about that, not just a "Vulcan".
 
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