Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble film?

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

Oh. Well I just gave my interpretation of events.

Okay, so let's move on from the interpretation involving a triangle which is not a triangle (and in fact never was).

Topic, please: Kirk/Spock-centric or ensemble forthe upcoming movie, Star Trek Beyond?

If you want to wander off into confusing interpretations of things in a previous movie which were not actually present, either put that in its own thread or post it in a blog.

Ok. I will start off on bringing the topic back. I do believe that a ensemble with Kirk, Spock and McCoy would be great. If they want to keep Uhura in the mix that would also be good but to shake things up it would be nice to see her engage McCoy a bit. For instance how would she react when McCoy is giving Spock a hard time. I think we may just get more McCoy in this film. Urbans portrayal of McCoy has gotten rave reviews and it would be a shame to not use him more in the 3rd film.

Ensemble means the entire cast not just two or three characters. Focusing just on the leads is not an ensemble.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

Okay, so let's move on from the interpretation involving a triangle which is not a triangle (and in fact never was).

Topic, please: Kirk/Spock-centric or ensemble forthe upcoming movie, Star Trek Beyond?

If you want to wander off into confusing interpretations of things in a previous movie which were not actually present, either put that in its own thread or post it in a blog.

Ok. I will start off on bringing the topic back. I do believe that a ensemble with Kirk, Spock and McCoy would be great. If they want to keep Uhura in the mix that would also be good but to shake things up it would be nice to see her engage McCoy a bit. For instance how would she react when McCoy is giving Spock a hard time. I think we may just get more McCoy in this film. Urbans portrayal of McCoy has gotten rave reviews and it would be a shame to not use him more in the 3rd film.

Ensemble means the entire cast not just two or three characters. Focusing just on the leads is not an ensemble.

Yes they are. An ensemble is a whole of parts. The main 3 in TOS (Kirk, Spock and McCoy) pretty much acted as a whole without the other actors. They were a ensemble of 3 making a whole. Just because there are other actors in the show or movies doesn't mean they are part of that dynamic ensemble of the big three in TOS. Basically Kirk, Spock and McCoy became a unit.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I like McCoy. But I never really missed him in the episodes where he wasn't present.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I like McCoy. But I never really missed him in the episodes where he wasn't present.

He had a excellent role in The City on the Edge of Forever.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I like McCoy. But I never really missed him in the episodes where he wasn't present.

He had a excellent role in The City on the Edge of Forever.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the episode. But I'm talking about "Where No Man..." and "Errand of Mercy".

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I like McCoy. But I never really missed him in the episodes where he wasn't present.

He had a excellent role in The City on the Edge of Forever.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the episode. But I'm talking about "Where No Man..." and "Errand of Mercy".

Both good eps. Though the Doctor in Where No Man has Gone Before was a bore.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

Ok. I will start off on bringing the topic back. I do believe that a ensemble with Kirk, Spock and McCoy would be great. If they want to keep Uhura in the mix that would also be good but to shake things up it would be nice to see her engage McCoy a bit. For instance how would she react when McCoy is giving Spock a hard time. I think we may just get more McCoy in this film. Urbans portrayal of McCoy has gotten rave reviews and it would be a shame to not use him more in the 3rd film.

Ensemble means the entire cast not just two or three characters. Focusing just on the leads is not an ensemble.

Yes they are. An ensemble is a whole of parts. The main 3 in TOS (Kirk, Spock and McCoy) pretty much acted as a whole without the other actors. They were a ensemble of 3 making a whole. Just because there are other actors in the show or movies doesn't mean they are part of that dynamic ensemble of the big three in TOS. Basically Kirk, Spock and McCoy became a unit.

That's still not what "ensemble cast" means.

What you're describing is the model prevalent in television dramas at the time TOS originally aired: two lead actors, maybe three, who feature prominently in every episode. The rest of the actors would always be in supporting / subordinate / otherwise minor roles, never featuring prominently in any story. In TOS, Kirk and Spock were the two primary characters; McCoy's status was elevated somewhat in later seasons, though he was never quite on the same level and Kirk and Spock.

In an ensemble cast, while there might still be one or two dominant roles, the scope of all of the subordinate roles are greatly expanded, such that they might move toward the front as featured characters in this story or that. Deep Space Nine is an example of an ensemble cast, with many stories centered on recurring and supporting characters.

Two different writing models - that's what the thread is asking about. Speak to that.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

Ensemble means the entire cast not just two or three characters. Focusing just on the leads is not an ensemble.

Yes they are. An ensemble is a whole of parts. The main 3 in TOS (Kirk, Spock and McCoy) pretty much acted as a whole without the other actors. They were a ensemble of 3 making a whole. Just because there are other actors in the show or movies doesn't mean they are part of that dynamic ensemble of the big three in TOS. Basically Kirk, Spock and McCoy became a unit.

That's still not what "ensemble cast" means.

What you're describing is the model prevalent in television dramas at the time TOS originally aired: two lead actors, maybe three, who feature prominently in every episode. The rest of the actors would always be in supporting / subordinate / otherwise minor roles, never featuring prominently in any story. In TOS, Kirk and Spock were the two primary characters; McCoy's status was elevated somewhat in later seasons, though he was never quite on the same level and Kirk and Spock.

In an ensemble cast, while there might still be one or two dominant roles, the scope of all of the subordinate roles are greatly expanded, such that they might move toward the front as featured characters in this story or that. Deep Space Nine is an example of an ensemble cast, with many stories centered on recurring and supporting characters.

Two different writing models - that's what the thread is asking about. Speak to that.

I thought we were talking "ensemble" not "ensemble cast". But ok I think they will stick to the status quo of Kirk/Spock and then bring in Uhura as a sidekick again and depending on how Pegg feels about TOS he may squeeze in McCoy as a main. The rest of the cast will most likely remain at their present levels of participation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I thought we were talking "ensemble" not "ensemble cast". But ok I think they will stick to the status quo of Kirk/Spock and then bring in Uhura as a sidekick again and depending on how Pegg feels about TOS he may squeeze in McCoy as a main. The rest of the cast will most likely remain at their present levels of participation.

Thread title and original post.

What definition are you using?

 

[Cyke101]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I thought we were talking "ensemble" not "ensemble cast". But ok I think they will stick to the status quo of Kirk/Spock and then bring in Uhura as a sidekick again and depending on how Pegg feels about TOS he may squeeze in McCoy as a main. The rest of the cast will most likely remain at their present levels of participation.

Thread title and original post.

What definition are you using?

To add to your point, if we're talking about TV and film, there's no difference between the two terms, too. Game of Thrones, Cheers, Marvel's Avengers movies, and the Fast and the Furious movies are all labeled as having ensembles, which are all starkly different than '60s TOS. Sure, there's a couple more prominent people here and there, but as was mentioned earlier, the supporting cast have large, meaty roles to play.

If we were talking about a musical ensemble, then it might be different. But hey, a musical Trek movie would certainly be different itself.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I may be wrong, but I think one of the first truly ensemble shows from the beginning was "Hill Street Blues". "St. Elsewhere" was one. (A fair number of medical shows seem to go this way to at least an extent.) Long running shows can also evolve into ensemble shows. I'd say "The Mary Tyler Moore Show", "M*A*S*H", "The Simpsons", "Deep Space Nine", and "Cheers" (mentioned above) are examples. More and more characters in the show get deeper backgrounds and start to carry more episodes where the "old leads" are in the background or not present at all.

If TOS had run three or four more seasons, the minor characters may have found meatier parts in later episodes, but it still probably wouldn't have been a true ensemble cast unless one could credibly imagine episodes led by Chekov or Sulu where Kirk and/or Spock are not in them or have only minor non-lead roles.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I thought we were talking "ensemble" not "ensemble cast". But ok I think they will stick to the status quo of Kirk/Spock and then bring in Uhura as a sidekick again and depending on how Pegg feels about TOS he may squeeze in McCoy as a main. The rest of the cast will most likely remain at their present levels of participation.

Thread title and original post.

What definition are you using?

I was using the parts of a whole definition. I was basically saying that in a way Spock, Kirk and McCoy as 3 parts made a complete whole. They worked best when they worked together. So they were an ensemble. I didn't know we were using the word as "ensemble cast" in the Hollywood vernacular. My apologies.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I thought we were talking "ensemble" not "ensemble cast". But ok I think they will stick to the status quo of Kirk/Spock and then bring in Uhura as a sidekick again and depending on how Pegg feels about TOS he may squeeze in McCoy as a main. The rest of the cast will most likely remain at their present levels of participation.

Thread title and original post.

What definition are you using?

I was using the parts of a whole definition. I was basically saying that in a way Spock, Kirk and McCoy as 3 parts made a complete whole. They worked best when they worked together. So they were an ensemble. I didn't know we were using the word as "ensemble cast" in the Hollywood vernacular. My apologies.

So you didn't read the thread?

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

I thought we were talking "ensemble" not "ensemble cast". But ok I think they will stick to the status quo of Kirk/Spock and then bring in Uhura as a sidekick again and depending on how Pegg feels about TOS he may squeeze in McCoy as a main. The rest of the cast will most likely remain at their present levels of participation.

Thread title and original post.

What definition are you using?

I was using the parts of a whole definition. I was basically saying that in a way Spock, Kirk and McCoy as 3 parts made a complete whole. They worked best when they worked together. So they were an ensemble. I didn't know we were using the word as "ensemble cast" in the Hollywood vernacular. My apologies.

Quoting from the opening post of this thread:

The last two films have been very kirk and spock centric which is fine but I was hoping... trek 3 will be... a film with an ensemble cast where all the characters... were all sort of leads in the film than just 2 main leading characters

[ ... ]

(emphasis mine)
​

While it might have been written more concisely, it does pretty clearly spell out what "ensemble cast" means, in the context of this thread (i.e., not Kirk/Spock, not Kirk/Spock/McCoy.) Again: speak to that, and not to other stuff which this thread is not about.

...

So you didn't read the thread?

Not an approach I recommend. It's not entirely unlike jumping in to offer a critique of movie scenes which one has not, in fact, ever watched.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

Thread title and original post.

What definition are you using?

I was using the parts of a whole definition. I was basically saying that in a way Spock, Kirk and McCoy as 3 parts made a complete whole. They worked best when they worked together. So they were an ensemble. I didn't know we were using the word as "ensemble cast" in the Hollywood vernacular. My apologies.

So you didn't read the thread?

I read it. He was asking about if the movie would be a Kirk/Spock movie or a ensemble cast(All the characters being important to the movie or basically having important roles like the avengers). I think it will focus on the mains again(Hopefully Pegg will add McCoy in this movie) and not really give much attention to say Sulu or Chekov.

 

[Sector 7]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

For my part in this discussion, McCoy should have a more prominent (not necessarily dominant) role in STB. Chris Pine had it right, the Kirk/McCoy relationship should get more screen time.

IMO, Uhura's role could have been better, but is hurt by her relationship with Spock. I would like to see Uhura with a strong female role, independent of Spock. I agree that she should have a small command shown. Not her own ship, but in charge of a landing party or team of some sort. Perhaps a secondary landing party or First Contact party, due to her linguistic skills.

Well it wasn't a even triangle that's for sure ... It was basically a weak triangle

What I mean is Kirk really wanted to stay in the triangle but it just didn't work out. First he didn't know about Spock then when he did it was to late and he had to find out Uhuras first name from Spock when Uhura kissed him goodbye. So yeah it really wasn't a triangle because Uhura hated Kirk and Spock knew there was no completion he had to worry about. So in conclusion it was a weak triangle with Kirks line desperately trying to get into formation but never making it.

Kirk trying to find out Uhura's first name was more of a running gag, IMHO.

 

[Malaika]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

For my part in this discussion, McCoy should have a more prominent (not necessarily dominant) role in STB. Chris Pine had it right, the Kirk/McCoy relationship should get more screen time.

IMO, Uhura's role could have been better, but is hurt by her relationship with Spock. I would like to see Uhura with a strong female role, independent of Spock.

I find it ironic that you want more of the kirk/mccoy relationship and don't see it as a hindrance for Mccoy even though he's more defined and limited to 'best friend of kirk' role than Uhura is limited by being Spock's girlfriend.

I always notice the double standard people have for female characters and romantic relationships vs the dudebro dynamics. A male character can be defined by a friendship, be unprofessional and 'weak' in the name of friendship, have most of his screen time devoted to that friendship..and it's a no issue. But a secondary character who happens to be female and happens to have a relationship with a guy is suddenly weak and can't be strong even though she has proved to be a character on her own right whose contribution to the plot is more active and relevant, at times, than the rest of the secondary characters who are males.
Zoe Saldana put it well once when she said she hoped that in the future where Uhura lives women are allowed to just be and won't have to get considered weak only because they have feelings like the men.

 

[fireproof78]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

For my part in this discussion, McCoy should have a more prominent (not necessarily dominant) role in STB. Chris Pine had it right, the Kirk/McCoy relationship should get more screen time.

IMO, Uhura's role could have been better, but is hurt by her relationship with Spock. I would like to see Uhura with a strong female role, independent of Spock. I agree that she should have a small command shown. Not her own ship, but in charge of a landing party or team of some sort. Perhaps a secondary landing party or First Contact party, due to her linguistic skills.

What I mean is Kirk really wanted to stay in the triangle but it just didn't work out. First he didn't know about Spock then when he did it was to late and he had to find out Uhuras first name from Spock when Uhura kissed him goodbye. So yeah it really wasn't a triangle because Uhura hated Kirk and Spock knew there was no completion he had to worry about. So in conclusion it was a weak triangle with Kirks line desperately trying to get into formation but never making it.

Kirk trying to find out Uhura's first name was more of a running gag, IMHO.

Uhura's role is hurt by being in a relationship?

I thought that she stood out, on her own, being one of the strongest, and more professional officers on the Enterprise crew. She recognizes her limits, and she recognizes her assets and uses them accordingly.

If the deleted scene of Kirk using Galia to hack the test had stayed in, we would have had a better contrast of Kirk in relationship, using her, and Uhura in relationship, pointing out her strengths outside of that relationship.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

Uhura is a very strong character in nuTrek, and her verbal and emotional sparring/reconciling with a powerful character like Spock really enhanced her status. She moved into the top tier and McCoy got kicked down a step.

 

[mos6507]

Re: Will Star Trek 3 be a Kirk & Spock centric film or An Ensemble fil

But a secondary character who happens to be female and happens to have a relationship with a guy is suddenly weak

I think you have that backwards.

Women, traditionally, sought power through their romantic relationships with men. You know, marrying into wealth, royalty, etc... So wouldn't it be more progressive for Uhura to not be dating the ship's first-officer? All that does is open up questions of nepotism, just as it would in a real-life workplace situation. At its worst, nuTrek Uhura comes across like a Yoko Ono figure, someone who is untouchable because she's "the girlfriend", therefore she feels she can prance around the bridge and whine about her relationship in a way that wouldn't fly if her boyfriend were not the first-officer. I would imagine any other up-and-coming crewmember who wanted to be in her spot would despise her, for good reason.

As for Saldana, I think she said a while back she wished that any future films would allow her to move the relationship with Spock to the back-burner or have them formally break up. The whole idea of the Bechdel test is to not write women in such a way that their whole lives revolve around their relationships with men. The fact that Uhura spends so much of her "on the clock" time fawning over or nagging Spock is, if anything, sexist. IMHO, the relationship was wedged in for the same reason Alice Eve's undie scene was wedged in. It was a cheap attempt at fan-service.