In hindsight do you wish TNG had ended with "All Good Things"?

[Greg Cox]

There is no word that I've come to hate more than 'canon'.

I could gladly go my entire life without ever hearing the word "canon" again. And I'm getting that way about "iconic."

And, yeah, I don't really understand how a disappointing film or episode can "tarnish the legacy" of an earlier work or overall series. JAWS is still a classic movie even if the sequels got steadily worse. And, as noted, STAR TREK somehow survived "Turnabout Intruder" with its reputation intact.

I don't get the idea that it's better to let some beloved series or character gather dust on a shelf, like a sacred relic, rather than risk having it "tarnished" somehow.

And there's often pleasures to be had revisiting old favorites even if they're past their glory days. Most of TOS's third season suffers by comparison to the first two, but do I wish that the third season had never aired?

Of course not.

 

[TheSubCommander]

The funny thing about NEM was that it convinced me Tom Hardy was a bad actor. I remember being pretty worried when Inception was making the news and I found out Tom Hardy was one of the leads. Then I saw the film and realized he'd simply been very poorly served by NEM.

I thought Hardy was very good in Nemesis considering the script was pretty rough.

Me too. I think without Hardy, it could have been a lot worse.

The very idea of a young picard clone was sort of silly to begin with. Tom Hardy did a good job given what he had to work with. I have long said I liked the idea of having Romulans in Nemesis, I just didn't like the idea of a clone. Sela probably is the closest thing Picard had to a "nemesis," and I would have preferred Sela to Shinzon. Although Denise Crosby isn't the greatest actress, I think she could have been directed well enough to pull off a serviceable, if not decent big bad for Picard and crew.

Also, I think B4 was sort of a waste. Had he been a reassembled Lore, posing as B4 at first, he would have been a far better character.

 

[BillJ]

There is no word that I've come to hate more than 'canon'.

I could gladly go my entire life without ever hearing the word "canon" again. And I'm getting that way about "iconic."

And, yeah, I don't really understand how a disappointing film or episode can "tarnish the legacy" of an earlier work or overall series. JAWS is still a classic movie even if the sequels got steadily worse. And, as noted, STAR TREK somehow survived "Turnabout Intruder" with its reputation intact.

I don't get the idea that it's better to let some beloved series or character gather dust on a shelf, like a sacred relic, rather than risk having it "tarnished" somehow.

And there's often pleasures to be hand revisiting old favorites even if they're past their glory days. Most of TOS's third season suffers by comparison to the first two, but do I wish that the third season had never aired?

Of course not.

+1

 

[Marsden]

Like some of the others posted, I think a better question would be, in hindsight do you with the TNG movies were as good as All Good Things? But that wouldn't be much discussion with everyone posting YES!


And I still maintain that the public were not sick of TNG or Star Trek, just lukewarm, half baked shit with the Star Trek name.

 

[Dukhat]

The only way I can tolerate B-4 is by going with the fan theory that it was really Lore, helping Shinzon for his own reasons.

So Lore allowed Shinzon to break him up into six different parts, bury him all over some hostile planet hoping that Picard was smart enough to go there and retrieve him (if it was Picard at all), then take a chance that even if he was found, that he wouldn't immediately be restored but possibly shipped to some lab for testing and never be put back together again?

Doesn't sound like Lore's all that smart.

 

[BillJ]

The only way I can tolerate B-4 is by going with the fan theory that it was really Lore, helping Shinzon for his own reasons.

So Lore allowed Shinzon to break him up into six different parts, bury him all over some hostile planet hoping that Picard was smart enough to go there and retrieve him (if it was Picard at all), then take a chance that even if he was found, that he wouldn't immediately be restored but possibly shipped to some lab for testing and never be put back together again?

Doesn't sound like Lore's all that smart.

I'll never understand why people wanted Lore and Sela in Nemesis.

 

[JeffinOakland]

In 20/20 hindsight: Don't make Generations at all. Make First Contact and use that to build a narrative flow to more TNG movies.

 

[Terok Nor]

I liked (and hated) parts of Generations and loved First Contact. The other two were awful. All Good Things is slightly ruined by the fact the Enterprise is destroyed the next time we see it. Even though Season 7 was largely disappointing I'd have been on board with another few seasons if the writing improved. I'd take more episodes on the Enterprise D over any of the movies.

 

[Chen]

Awww, Generations was all right - it was a nice way to pass the torch, and there were some cool scenes in it. The Enterprise crash was amazing! I'm a bit biased because Generations got me into Star Trek (don't judge XD) but I do think it gets a bit of a bad rap.

First Contact was amazing, for sure.

Insurrection was... well... I mean, I'll watch it and enjoy it, but it wasn't a cinema masterpiece. Same deal with Nemesis, really, although I much prefer to refer to it as Wrath of Khan II, with Into Darkness then rounding out the Wrath of Khan trilogy...

 

[JesterFace]

I don't have or find any reason to watch any of the TNG films...

 

[Terok Nor]

Awww, Generations was all right - it was a nice way to pass the torch, and there were some cool scenes in it. The Enterprise crash was amazing! I'm a bit biased because Generations got me into Star Trek (don't judge XD) but I do think it gets a bit of a bad rap.

First Contact was amazing, for sure.

Insurrection was... well... I mean, I'll watch it and enjoy it, but it wasn't a cinema masterpiece. Same deal with Nemesis, really, although I much prefer to refer to it as Wrath of Khan II, with Into Darkness then rounding out the Wrath of Khan trilogy...

I agree Generations had some cool parts. It was good to see the Enterprise D on the big screen, the opening 23rd century scenes were entertaining and I loved the Duras Sisters. I think the bad rap comes from the disappointing way in which Kirk and Picard finally meet, Kirk's death and the destruction of the Enterprise. It wasn't a great starting point for the TNG movies. But then neither was The Motion Picture

First Contact was near enough to perfect. Anyone who saw the original Zefram Cochrane from TOS has valid reasons to hate the reinvented version from FC but on its own merits I thought Cromwell was amazing in the reimagined role.

Insurrection was just a feature length episode of the show. And not even a good one. Easily the most skippable TNG movie.

Nemesis was a mess but there were a few things I liked (Guinan and Wesley cameos, the Remans looked cool, Riker and Troi wedding and....ummmm....

 

[Chen]

I did quite enjoy the scene where the Enterprise-D crashed - it looked rather spectacular! Get what you're saying, though - I think if First Contact had been the first TNG film then it would have been mind-blowing!

 

[2takesfrakes]

First Contact was definitely what the TNG movies should've started out with. And although INS was a mixed bag, taking Jonathan Frakes out of the director's chair was the biggest mistake the series ever made, outside of GEN ... take Frakes out of the equation and what've you got? You've got bupkis!

 

[Phantom]

The only way I can tolerate B-4 is by going with the fan theory that it was really Lore, helping Shinzon for his own reasons.

So Lore allowed Shinzon to break him up into six different parts, bury him all over some hostile planet hoping that Picard was smart enough to go there and retrieve him (if it was Picard at all), then take a chance that even if he was found, that he wouldn't immediately be restored but possibly shipped to some lab for testing and never be put back together again?

Doesn't sound like Lore's all that smart.

I'll never understand why people wanted Lore and Sela in Nemesis.

Because that would have had more resonance story wise than "random Soong prototype # whatever" and "generic Romulan Commander".

 

[DonIago]

I'd want a pretty good explanation as to how Lore managed to put himself back together after the conclusion of "Descent", beyond the points Dukhat raises above.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

AGT was an awesome ending to the series, but I don't regret that the movies were made. I just wish that three of them had been better! First Contact, I really liked.

There is no word that I've come to hate more than 'canon'.

I could gladly go my entire life without ever hearing the word "canon" again. And I'm getting that way about "iconic."

I dislike "iconic" way more than "canon"!

 

[Allyn Gibson]

There's a nice open-endedness about AGT. In the mists of our minds, the ship and crew could have gone anywhere from there. And had it been the literal end, then we'd have been left with those hypothetical possibilities to ponder.

The movies act as an anticlimax to that. First they shoot down 1701-D herself, then they basically do character assassinations on the rest of the crew as well. Our lasting impressions of The Next Generation are therefore suffering a kind of taint; a post-script where we start our discussions with "That show was awesome!", but finish them with "Oh yeah, but it all got a bit depressing in the movies at the end".

AGT left us with hope. But the TNG movies stomped on that hope, kicked sand into it's face, squeezed lemon juice into it's eyes, and left it rolling around on the grass screaming "Make It Stop!".

Of course, all of this is only evident to us in retrospect. At the time, with TNG ending on a high, sending the crew to the big screen seemed like the obvious thing to do. And I can't really imagine any way in which history could have unfolded differently than the way it did.

QFT.

I made a very similar point in Star Trek Magazine a few years ago in an article I wrote on Generations. Generations is a movie of closure, and what follows over the next three films is really just afterthought.

 

[BillJ]

Because that would have had more resonance story wise than "random Soong prototype # whatever" and "generic Romulan Commander".

But neither character fit the story and Denise Crosby is a brutally bad actress. Not exactly the way to captivate audiences.

 

[Phantom]

I'd want a pretty good explanation as to how Lore managed to put himself back together after the conclusion of "Descent", beyond the points Dukhat raises above.

Simple. Shinzon was the one who arranged for "B-4" to be found. Instead of just another Data prototype, substitute Lore instead. Either Shinzon was knowingly working with Lore, or he simply stole what he thought was just a prototype and Lore went along with it for his own reasons.

Because that would have had more resonance story wise than "random Soong prototype # whatever" and "generic Romulan Commander".

But neither character fit the story and Denise Crosby is a brutally bad actress. Not exactly the way to captivate audiences.

Says who? How does "generic Soong prototype" B-4 make a better fit than Lore? If it had been Lore, that could have set up a story for the next film.

Having Donatra be Sela instead would have brought closure to her character arc and redeemed Tasha's sacrifice at the same time.

I never had a problem with Denise Crosby, but they could always have re-cast.

 

[TheSubCommander]

The only way I can tolerate B-4 is by going with the fan theory that it was really Lore, helping Shinzon for his own reasons.

So Lore allowed Shinzon to break him up into six different parts, bury him all over some hostile planet hoping that Picard was smart enough to go there and retrieve him (if it was Picard at all), then take a chance that even if he was found, that he wouldn't immediately be restored but possibly shipped to some lab for testing and never be put back together again?

Doesn't sound like Lore's all that smart.

I'll never understand why people wanted Lore and Sela in Nemesis.

For me, at least, it's because they are two TNG villians who had open-ended fates in the show, and they literally WERE the Nemeses of both Data and Picard. I was fine with not having them, but the writers ended up creating two characters who were similar to Lore (B4) and Sela (Donatra), anyway, so it was hard not to make the comparisons, or wondering why they couldn't have just had Lore and Sela to begin with.

While I had said earlier I thought Denise Crosby could have been a passable big bad (given the proper direction), someone else said the role could have been recast, or another idea was to make Sela a secondary villain who, like Donatra, redeems herself (possibly even dying to do it). I would have even been OK with the actress who played Donatra, Dina Meyer, assuming the role of Sela.

As for Lore, I just thought he was a more interesting character than B4, if the writers were going to have a duplicate of Data that was intended to betray the crew. Lore had a history with the TNG crew, whereas, B4 the character just came out of no where, and seemed like a blatant set up that if there were another TNG movie, we would likely get a Spock-like resurrection of Data.

I know this is getting a little fan-wanky, but I think it would have been interesting if B4 ended up being revealed as Lore, and the memory transfer to "B4" is what ultimately redeems Lore. By the end of the movie, where Lore is reactivated and told by Picard about Data's sacrifice, thanks to Data's transfer, Lore FINALLY gets it, and finally decides to reform himself and live as Data had. Data's memories live on in Lore, but don't supplant Lore's personality. Lore learns how to be better than he had been, but isn't a cheap analogue to Spock's resurrection.

That way we would have a clean death for Data, where he not only saves Picard, the Enterprise, and his own brother, but we don't get the even more fan-wanky fan fiction of B4's mind and body being usurped by Data's personality. Data wouldn't have wanted to do something like that, at the cost of his "brother's" life.

 

[Phantom]

^I wish this board had "rep points", TSC...I'd give you a bucketful!