TOS Still The Best

[Franklin]

Young Kirk in ST09 and at least the first 75 percent of STID was egotistical and cocky. With no track record, I can see how that would make him unlikeable. Mature Kirk still had a large ego but wasn't egotistical, and exchanged his brash cockiness for confidence that came from experience. I think the kids would say he had swagger.

Either way, I'd never debate that Kirk had a high opinion of his abilities. But then, as Hall of Fame pitcher Dizzy Dean used to say, "It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young.

You know according to the back ground material stuff Kirk was supposed to have been captain of the Enterprise for four years by the point we first meet him at age 32, meaning he was 28 when he was first given command aka 3 years older than NuKirk was.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Young Kirk in ST09 and at least the first 75 percent of STID was egotistical and cocky. Mature Kirk has an ego without being egotistical, and exchanged cockiness for confidence that came from experience.

Either way, I'd never debate that Kirk had a high opinion of his abilities. But then, as Hall of Fame pitcher Dizzy Dean used to say, "It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

Mature Kirk could be cocky, too.

 

[BillJ]

Lots of young men from one and two parent families turn out to be assholes until they find their way.

But the assumption was made that Prime Kirk grew up with a father. We don't know that.

And, yes, nuKirk is indeed an asshole--a stupid jackass punk. It isn't Pine's fault because that's how he was directed to play him.

Not seeing it. And trust me, I know an asshole when I see one.

I see an average young man when I see Pine's Kirk. I've raised one son to adulthood and he has his cocky moments and, God knows, I was a bit of a cocky punk when I was younger. As I imagine many folks here were. Many young men seem to have this "I've got the world by the tail" mindset.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young.

You know according to the back ground material stuff Kirk was supposed to have been captain of the Enterprise for four years by the point we first meet him at age 32, meaning he was 28 when he was first given command aka 3 years older than NuKirk was.

He also had more experience, having been a Starfleet officer for seven years rather than seven minutes.


Wait...which side am I on????

 

[Warped9]

We saw in TOS that Kirk questioned himself at times. And the picture painted of TOS Kirk as earnest at the Academy is in direct contrast to the punk depicted in JJtrek.

TOS Kirk is a character I can admire bolstered by his working and earning his way to his position.

NuKirk is a jackass who only instills in me the desire to see him punched in the face and in no way deserves the credit and position simply handed to him.

Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young.

You know according to the back ground material stuff Kirk was supposed to have been captain of the Enterprise for four years by the point we first meet him at age 32, meaning he was 28 when he was first given command aka 3 years older than NuKirk was.

That's not established onscreen. That's in the material reprinted in TMOS during the hiatus between 2nd and 3rd season. So it comes down to interpretation. One can just as easily argue Kirk took command of the Enterprise only a year or maybe two before 1st season.

 

[BillJ]

We saw in TOS that Kirk questioned himself at times.

Uhura: I sure hope you know what you're doing.
Kirk: So do I.

There was quite a bit of Kirk questioning himself in the first film.

And the picture painted of TOS Kirk as earnest at the Academy is in direct contrast to the punk depicted in JJtrek.

I find it hard to believe that the Jim Kirk I saw in TOS was ever a choir boy.

TOS Kirk is a character I can admire bolstered by his working and earning his way to his position.

Okay? I like TOS Kirk too. I've spent the last forty years of my life watching the characters adventures over and over and over...

NuKirk is a jackass who only instills in me the desire to see him punched in the face and in no way deserves the credit and position simply handed to him.

This is why no one really takes you seriously. You act like a fictional character has somehow offended you. It is just a movie. Sometimes they work for any given individual, sometimes they don't.

Get over yourself.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We saw in TOS that Kirk questioned himself at times. And the picture painted of TOS Kirk as earnest at the Academy is in direct contrast to the punk depicted in JJtrek.

TOS Kirk is a character I can admire bolstered by his working and earning his way to his position.

The character we see as the show evolved doesn't quite match up with the "earnest" Cadet Kirk described in earlier episodes.

Not sure why you keep using the term "punk". Not seeing anything punk like in young Kirk. Other than his motorcycle, 'cause all the cool punks ride 'em.

NuKirk is a jackass who only instills in me the desire to see him punched in the face and in no way deserves the credit and position simply handed to him.

Well you got your wish more than once then.

 

[Warped9]

I find it hard to believe that the Jim Kirk I saw in TOS was ever a choir boy.

No one said he was a choir boy, but the onscreen references to his character at the Academy are there.

Get over yourself.

FU.

 

[Franklin]

Young Kirk in ST09 and at least the first 75 percent of STID was egotistical and cocky. Mature Kirk has an ego without being egotistical, and exchanged cockiness for confidence that came from experience.

Either way, I'd never debate that Kirk had a high opinion of his abilities. But then, as Hall of Fame pitcher Dizzy Dean used to say, "It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

Mature Kirk could be cocky, too.

Kirk always struck me as a collegial person who was easy to approach, hard to dislike and who was good company as long as you remembered how awesome he was. There are real people like that.

 

[BillJ]

Get over yourself.

FU.

You do know that Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman didn't get together and decide to make a movie that pisses you off specifically?

I just don't understand how you can't let this go? The Abrams movies are obviously something you don't like, it just seems weird to spend as much time as you do railing against them.

Move on. There's plenty of Star Trek to discuss that you do like.

 

[BillJ]

Kirk always struck me as a collegial person who was hard to dislike and who was good company as long as you remembered how awesome he was. There are real people like that.

Absolutely there are.

Most every driven person I've ever known has been cocky and a douche to some degree.

KIRK: On the contrary, sir. I think of this project as very important. It is you I take lightly.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Young Kirk in ST09 and at least the first 75 percent of STID was egotistical and cocky. Mature Kirk has an ego without being egotistical, and exchanged cockiness for confidence that came from experience.

Either way, I'd never debate that Kirk had a high opinion of his abilities. But then, as Hall of Fame pitcher Dizzy Dean used to say, "It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

Mature Kirk could be cocky, too.

Kirk always struck me as a collegial person who was easy to approach, hard to dislike and who was good company as long as you remembered how awesome he was. There are real people like that.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young.

You know according to the back ground material stuff Kirk was supposed to have been captain of the Enterprise for four years by the point we first meet him at age 32, meaning he was 28 when he was first given command aka 3 years older than NuKirk was.

He also had more experience,

So did all the other starfleet captains who go nuts' get eaten by space monsters, or are just plain nitwits. Experience isn't the end all be all of Starfleet apparently.

Besides its not like Pike handed the keys to the federation's best (pretty much only non canon fodder) starship that is armed with a weapon capable of destroying a small planet to a hot headed 18 year old because he's dying of radiation poisoning and then Starfleet decides to let the guy do pretty much what ever the hell he wants with it, including stealing it whiling blowing up an orbital defense satellite on the way out.

Or Starfleet handing a classified new state of the art ship to a crew consisting of one junior officer, one cadet, and a bunch of civilians (most of which were high schoolers) from a wrecked colony and said junior officer having the ship's newest weapon in the care of an angsty teenager.

 

[Franklin]

Mature Kirk could be cocky, too.

Kirk always struck me as a collegial person who was easy to approach, hard to dislike and who was good company as long as you remembered how awesome he was. There are real people like that.

Yep. Quarterback and captain of the high school football team. Letters in basketball for good measure. Has a 4.00 GPA. Leads the school's blood drive. Dates the homecoming queen (and her court). But you just gotta like him.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk always struck me as a collegial person who was easy to approach, hard to dislike and who was good company as long as you remembered how awesome he was. There are real people like that.

Yep. Quarterback and captain of the high school football team. Letters in basketball for good measure. Has a 4.00 GPA. Leads the school's blood drive. Dates the homecoming queen (and her court). But you just gotta like him.

He's no Ferris Bueller though. Ferris is one righteous dude.

 

[Franklin]

Yep. Quarterback and captain of the high school football team. Letters in basketball for good measure. Has a 4.00 GPA. Leads the school's blood drive. Dates the homecoming queen (and her court). But you just gotta like him.

He's no Ferris Bueller though. Ferris is one righteous dude.

Maybe not. But Kirk could be the only guy who could humble that Dos Equis guy. (And give him some pointers.)

 

[fireproof78]

Lots of kids have grown up in single parent families and don't turn out to be assholes.

Lots of young men from one and two parent families turn out to be assholes until they find their way.

But the assumption was made that Prime Kirk grew up with a father. We don't know that.

And, yes, nuKirk is indeed an asshole--a stupid jackass punk. It isn't Pine's fault because that's how he was directed to play him.

Well, if Trek 09 is treated as "canon" then we do know that he knew his father. Prime Spock confirms that fact. One of the best scenes in the movie because it establishes the pain that Kirk feels from the lack of a father figure in his life.

Regardless of what other people have turned out as, nu Kirk did not turn out well because he needed a father figure to be the leader that he had the potential to be.

I get that nu Kirk is a cocky and a jerk at times. But, underneath is the potential to be something so much more. I love watching that growth occur and am fascinated by what the character is all about.

It isn't for eveyone but that doesn't mean the character doesn't have a point.

I kind of figure it like this: Prime Kirk is the ubermensch to some degree. Women want him and men want to be him. He is a leader, inspires loyalty in his crew, and is able to fight, think or talk his way out of most situations. But, we never saw what made him that way. Why he is the leader that he is. I think he is inspiring, in a way that Pike is in Trek 09.

Nu Kirk is potential. Maybe it comes from years of teaching high schoolers tennis but I love the watching that potential develop and form. It isn't always pretty but it is fascinating to me.

 

[Dude111]

Threes Company was excellent television. So was Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.

Indeed you are rite my friend!!

 

[plynch]

I am warming to jjtrek in theory the more I read of it here. Stylistically, it is not my thing, but whatever.

So though I am trying to be more appreciative, it is hard to argue with the assesment of nuKirk as an a**hole. Yes, there might be reasons. And he is better in JJ2. I hope he is fully formed by 3. A sign of the times, our less mythological, more materialist, scientific approach to everything, we (many of us anyway) prefer the cause and effect: WHY is our hero - sorry, protagonist - the way he is?

Compare the Gene Wilder Wonka to Depp Wonka. Wilder Wonka is what he is, fully formed chaotic good. Depp Wonka has to give us backstory with horrific headgear, bondage really, all from guess what? . . . a broken relationship with the father. Freud wins.

Note Charlie has no father, has a bedridden Grandpa Joe in place of Pike, but is neither cocky nor a**hole.

Also, though I am biased toward TOS, I just don't see oldKirk as cocky. He questions himself throughout the series and the films. From the start he seems likeable though firm (that's what she said?). The paragon of the father, always concerned about his love, the ship (a vessel, container, mother-figure) and his children, the crew. Let's throw Jung some love here too.

Be well!